9 replies to this topic

[Fast One]

I was ging to avoid posting this for maybe ever, given how tired we all are of lists, but it came up as relevant on the other side, so I thought I'd post it here as well. I started keeping track of careers this way as a reaction to the inflated win lists of recent years. Older seasons were short, older cars less reliable, so I wondered how I could even the playing field and came up with this. On the other side I posted it using current scoring, but here I'll do it my traditional way, using 9-6-4-3-2-1. I figure anything Bernie came up with can't be good.

So here goes, with apologies to the winners of the many non-championship races, and guys like Wilmille, who came along before the championship did. This isn't the be all and end all and it isn't MY LIST. It's just how it came out. Prepare for a few surprises.

1. Prost 70
2. Fangio 57
3. Senna 52
4. Piquet 45
5. Stewart 44
6. Lauda 41
7. Schumacher 37
8. G. Hill 36
9. Moss 36
10. Brabham 35
11. Clark 33
12. Mansell 33
13. Fittipaldi 31
14. Ascari 26
15. Surtees 26
16. D. Hill 26
17. Hulme 25
18. Hakkinen 24
19. Farina 24
20. Scheckter 23

I'll stop there. A pretty good group of drivers. And there is no one not listed who I can make a really strong case for putting in the top 20. So far 93 drivers have made the list by finishing in the top six.

Besides, I think it's a lot more realistic than the Motorsport list for the players in question.

[This message has been edited by Fast One (edited 01-12-2000).]

[Makarias]

Take a look at the stats department of the always lovely Forix database and I think you'll find the same list, but with the points system of today. Interesting stuff, though the drivers of the past aren't exactly helped by more often having had their carreers ended a bit (or two bits) prematurely due to accidents.

[Fast One]

Yeah, Todd mentioned that. I need to get out more I guess, but I'd never heard of them. I've been doing this for my own amusement since the '60's. I'm not surprised other people do it to. One thing that's fun for me is watching new talent rise and see where they stop. With Damon, for example, it ended pretty abruptly. I agree with you that Clark, Ascari and others had alot more in them when they died. Since life expectancies were shorter in the past, it still favors modern drivers, who, like Prost, can have extrordinarily long careers, but it's a more level playing field than total points and career wins. It certainly isn't the final word, but it is an interesting way of looking at things. Graham Hill, for instance, looks better than history treats him.

Another thing I've done with this is count how many years a driver was on top, and divide his points by that to see how much on top he was. Oddly, Hill and Clark each had six years where they scored in the top six, yet Hill still outscores Clark. I'm not saying he was better, just that it makes it obvious that history has underrated him.

[Joe Fan]

Certainly this is one way to look at driver's career stats but the only thing I don't like about this type of list is that it rewards longevity too much. Drivers who were killed before their time get hurt by such lists but I do think that there is something to be said for longevity. Today's F1 drivers will have to be committed to their sport to knock Prost out of the top spot. With the money that is being shelled out these days in F1, I think drivers will have even shorter F1 careers than in the past. A very great driver sometimes is a driver who has been great for a long time like Mario Andretti was. With the salaries that are being handed out today in all sports that allows athletes to get their money and run, I am beginning to have much more respect for the careers of athletes like Mario Andretti, Gordie Howe, Nolan Ryan, George Blanda and quite a few of those NASCAR boys.

[Fast One]

Joe--

The thing I find interesting is how well Graham Hill did. He and Clark and Surtees each had six "competitive" years, yet Graham outscored them both, even though he is geneally regarded as the slowest of the three. It shows you don't have to be the fastest guy out there to be successful. Ascari got his points in only four top seasons.

It's interesting that 7 competitive years is about the limit. Only a handful of guys have more: Prost with 12, Senna, Piquet and Berger each have 9. I haven't looked much farther down the list, but for guys with less than 20 points, how many great years could there have been? Berger is an example of the weakness of this method, since he never finished higher than third.

Funny though, in most sports the gifted few seem to hang on forever, especially in some big team sports where the talent pool has been watered down by expansion. That hasn't held for Formula 1, altough in lower rungs, like sports cars and NASCAR, guys seem to last until they are 100. I knew you'd sneak that NASCAR comment in there somewhere!!!

[Joe Fan]

Fast One, just curious: how did you break ties for position? If two drivers finished tied for 3rd place in the season standings did you 1) break the tie someway, or 2) did you give both drivers 3.5 points (the average of third and fourth place points) or 3) did you give both drivers four points? I have noticed a few figures that don't match what I have. I think the correct way would be giving each driver 3.5 points in the above scenario.

[Fast One]

Joe--

Currently I break all ties just as the FIA does. The guy with the highest individual finish wins the tiebreaker. If two guys have the same number of wins, for example, I'd look at second place finishes, then third if it's still tied, ad nauseum.

Over the years I have done it almost every way, including awarding partial points for ties. I've decided it doesn't matter. People move up or down a place or two depending on how I count things. It doesn't change how they drove. I don't put much stock in the exact order. I simply find it interesting so see where drivers fall generally. All this measures is success, not speed or ability. It's usually pretty easy to see why someone ended up better or worse than I would rate them with my heart.

I like doing this for two reasons. First, it allows drivers of the 50's and 60's a reasonably equal playing field to measure their achievements against modern drivers. Second, I enjoy tremendously watching young talent rise to a place among the greats. When someone says Damon or Michael suck as drivers, I look to what heights they rose and smile to myself. Their value is established by the names around them.

[This message has been edited by Fast One (edited 01-14-2000).]

[Marcel Schot]

Fastone - You took the time to calculate this all?
I don't want to depress you too much, but Forix already had the work done for you (10,6,4,3,2,1 system though): http://www.forix.com...&k=0&l=0&c=1202

[Fast One]

Marcel--

So Todd told me. Actually, I've been doing this for years, so adding a new season each year isn't much work. I've also varied the way I've calculated it, as I mentioned to Joe, but in the end decided it doesn't matter much how I do it. Too bad I've only been on the internet for a little more than a year. Maybe I could have beat Forix to the punch!!!

[Joe Fan]

Fast One, since Don closed my thread I will respond to you here. The reason why I didn't comment on Graham's ranking on this list is that I felt it was unnecessary since I have already posted that I think he was a very underrated driver by motorsport historians. I wouldn't have a problem with someone ranking him 8th on their top ten list but I sure had a problem with MotorSport magazine ranking him in what 70th place of the greatest grand prix drivers of all time.

As far as feeling my oats, I recently diagnosed myself with gallstones which was confirmed by Ultrasound. Surgery was recommended to me so if anything you caught me not feeling my gallstones.

As far as us not hurling insults for a brief moment, just remember one thing. This sh*t isn't really important enough to get too worked up about. It is just the pashion of our free time and sometimes people get too caught up into this that they do not realize how unimportant this stuff really is. My mother is in bad shape right now and needs a very risky valve replacement surgery. She is in a situation where she is damned if she has the surgery and damned if she doesn't. When you have issues like these to deal with you'll see how unimportant all of this really is. Motorsport is a noble pashion but it doesn't make the world go around. I simply use bulletin board as a springboard for my thoughts, ideas and opinions. No one has to agree with them and I don't get too worried about what other people think. And if a poster fires one close to home then I will fire one back.