54 replies to this topic

[Xrayman]

I keep reading in these pages about the 'speedvision' series in the US and on cable - this has made me think, the BBC must have hours worth of classic GP action in there extensive archives.

What are these clips doing? - sitting and collecting dust. Is'nt it about time the BBC decided to produce a series on the old GPs. There must be enough clips for at least 1/2 hr covering each season since 1950 - making a good lengthy series.

As the BBC lost it's live GP rites some years ago surely they can give us something in return.

What do we all think?



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Martin.

ICQ 53805151

[Fast One]

Interestingly, the vast bulk of the Speedvision "Legends of Motorsport" series were done by British production crews. Frequently, they were filmed at the behest of the company whose cars are featured, but there is always good coverage of other cars.

When did the BBC start covering Grand Prix racing and/or top shelf sports car racing? If it was as early as the '60's, there should be some terrific footage about. I rather think that someone has already looked and bought the rights to whatever was found. But maybe not...A tantalizing thought anyway.

[Ray Bell]

Would not this have formed the basis of the "F1 Saga," which was recently run here and no doubt previously in other parts of the world?

[Eric McLoughlin]

Right - a quick history lesson.
The BBC started broadcasting TV to the general public in 1936! Initially studio bound, within a few years live outside broadcasts were being undertaken eg. the 1938 FA Cup Final, the 1938 Derby and the funeral of King George V. Unfortunately, video tape had not yet been invented so all these broadcasts were not recorded. I don't know if any motor racing events were covered pre-war but would'nt it be fantastic if the 1938 Donington Park Grand Prix existed on tape today. TV ceased for the duration of the war and recommenced in 1946. Again,I have no details as to what early post war events the BBC covered but, with no video tape, nothing could have been saved for posterity in any case. TV was still very much the junior partner of radio in those days and all their top commentators worked in radio. The BBC have produced a twin audio casette called "Murray Walker at the BBC" and this contains some rare radio clips from this era, all featuring Murray himself. Included is his commentary on the 1949 British GP from Silverstone, won by De Graffenreid. The tone is so mannerly, Murray not having acquired his "Trousers on Fire" style at that time. Also included is part of his commentary on the 1951 Isle of Man Senior TT. During the 50's the BBC ran a weekly sport magazine programme which was recorded on film so some of this must survive. In fact, I've seen some clips of the 1949 British GP which could be from that scource. If the BBC thouhght that a TV event was worth recording, such as the Queen's Coronation in 1953, then they would literally film the TV image from a monitor. The result was rough to say the least. Don't forget also that British TV operated in those days on a 405 line system which meant that definition, even when live, was poor by today's standards. Video tape arrived in 1957 but was expensive so items already recorded were often over-recorded. This is what happened to early "Dr Who" episodes for example. Up until 1978 the BBC covered only a few GPs each year, and none from outside Europe. After James Hunt won the world championship in 1976, they decided that public interest was sufficient to warrant an edited highlights programme on Sunday Night which became "Grand Prix". The programme was delayed until 1978 because of a major conflict within the BBC concerning their ethos of not carrying advertising and how they could square that up with showing sponsored racing cars. Again, only a few races were covered live. It was only 1992 with "Mansell Mania" at its peak that the BBC finally decided to cover all the races live. And finally, as most of you know, the British commercial network ITV wrested coverage of GP's from the BBC at the end of 1995, their first season being 1997.

[This message has been edited by Eric McLoughlin (edited 01-22-2000).]

[Xrayman]

Thanks for the Info eric, I looks unlikely that the BBC could produce the earlier GPs is they were not permenantly recorded.

Ray, you mentioned the F1 Saga televised 'over here' - excuse my ignorance but where is here? I'll be so pissed of if it was on in the UK!!!!!

Thanks again for the responces.




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Martin.

ICQ 53805151

[Witt]

xrayman, The F1 Saga was screened on Australian TV throughout 98. I'm so pissed i didn't record every episode! I wasn't into archiving in those days.

I too have often wondered why the GP broadcasters don't screen the old GP's, or even highlights of past GP's. In Australia, before the Aussie Rules Footy Grand Final, Channel 7 screen a "Footy Marathon." They show all the great grand finals from the past. It starts at about 11pm the night before and goes for about 8 hours. I would love it if our GP broadcaster, channel 9, would do something similar in anticipation of the Australian GP.

I have a feeling, however, that Bernie and all the F1 teams get 'royalties' for everytime a GP is shown in public. It probably costs more to replay an old GP than to show a new one.

[Ian McKean]

Very good idea and Eric's posting about the BBC was very interesting. I remember one of Murray Walker's earlier efforts at car race commentating when he talked about "...twisting the throttle..."!

Talking of commentators is there anyone else out there who thinks that Jonathan Palmer was superb and actually more analytical about fuel strategies than Martin Brundle. So many people wrote to Motoring News saying how good Martin Brundle was and no one wrote saying how good Palmer was that I feel Palmer was hard done by and if he ever reads this I would like him to know I think he was an excellent commentator. (But James Hunt was the best IMHO).

But coming back to a compilation of film about F1, I believe that the late Rivers Fletcher had the biggest collection. He died last year so presumably his heirs have the collection now.

Did anyone (in the UK) watch the old films before last years Australian GP? I particularly enjoyed the 1955 Tourist Trophy and the Mille Miglia films. Racing in the 50's has more in common with rallies today than F1 today.

Ian

[Eric McLoughlin]

Further on TV footage - the oldest genuine TV (as opposed to film/newsreel footage) motor racing images I have ever seen are shots of Moss and Jenkinson crossing the finish line at the end of the 1955 Mile Miglia. It is definitely from TV as the picture has the characteristic bands across the screen. Given the date and the quality, the TV image was probably transferred to film first and only put onto video tape much later. There's a good chance only one or two TV cameras were available to Italian TV (RAI) to cover the entire event.
In addition, in the colour documentary made by BP of Moss's famous 1961 Monaco win, there are some shots which show a Monaco TV camerman on the start finish straight. You can actually see the black and white TV image in the viewfinder over the cameraman's shoulder as Moss blasts past. Needless to say, I have never seen any of this TV footage as it was probably wiped years ago.

I think younger posters to the forum (those under 25?) must find it hard to believe that all this sport could have gone on without blanket and in-depth TV coverage. In reality, the sort of extensive TV coverage we are now so used to only came about in the 1980's. Prior to then the technology required was either too expensive or simply did'nt exist. Don't forget the first major sporting event to have full live worldwide satellite coverage was the 1968 Olympics as it was only then a geosynchronous communication satellite was actually in orbit to relay the pictures. It was also the first Olympic Games to be broadcast in colour.

Ian, I echo your sentiments about Jonathan Palmer to some extent. However, in TV, style and charisma is everything and no matter how "interesting" his contributions were, he lacked that certain flair. Brundle certainly does have it. I think it centres on being able to think quickly and come up with pertinent comments on the spur of the moment. That was also one of Hunt's strong points. I do admire JP for other contributions to motor sport eg the Caterham 7 JPE, the Formula Palmer Audi series and the development of the Bedford Autodrome (see last week's Autosport).

[This message has been edited by Eric McLoughlin (edited 01-23-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Eric McLoughlin (edited 01-23-2000).]

[BrundleBud]

Further to previous posts about old BBC footage, when tape was eventually used to record live events you may find that some of it has been over-recorded. At one point the BBC storehouses were so crammed full of video tape that some wise-guy decided that to save space they would record ove various thing and re-use the tape.
This has led to various "lost" episodes of old television programmes and probably includes a lot of early sports footage.

[Eric McLoughlin]

This is a true story. I received a letter this morning from a friend of mine who is doing some research into the history of Blackbushe Airport, which is about six miles from where I live in Farnborough, Hampshire. Although mainly aviation related, the airfield was used at various times in the 1950's and 1960's for go-karting and drag racing. He tells me in the letter that he recently discovered that in May 1964, the BBC covered live on TV three go-kart races on their Saturday sports programme, "Grandstand". He contacted them to see if they had kept any record of this event but was told that they were now "unable to locate the film". Seems to back up what I was saying earlier about the disappearence of old material at the BBC.

[madmac]

Hello,

To add further comment to the Beeb tapes story. The BBC has recentley set up a ltd company which owns the rights to all their sporting archives, this coupled with the move of there archives over the last few years means that a lot of the rarer footage has indeed been misplaced. But the bigger picture is that the tapes which where once in public onwership have passed over to a private company. Meaning that any 'golden years' series are unlikley. The only positive note here is to recomend Sky's A-Z of motorsport which is repeated on a regular basis.

[Ray Bell]

From 1963, Sydney's Channel 7 was at the forefront of motor racing telecasting. They were motivated by the annual Bathurst 500/1000, which accidentally became the most watched TV each year, so worked on camera provision and innovations.
From this came the in-car cameras (mid 70s) and then the commentary from the drivers (bet we don't get that in F1). They sold a lot of technology to other TV networks and overseas.

[BRG]

On the issue of Jonathan Palmer as a commentator, I agree he was a bit underrated. But my main beef with him was his hypocrisy over "baulking" by back markers. When he was in F1, with RAM, he was one of the worst baulkers, but the BBC commentary team of the time (Walker and Hunt) would always blame his team mate Martini. As we all know, British drivers are perfect gentlemen who never, ever do anything unsporting, whereas Italians are untrustworthy, shifty, etc etc (roll out those stereotypes). The fact that any fool could see that it was usually our dear Jonathan blocking the leader’s progress mattered naught…

However, I guess he has redeemed himself with Formula Palmer Audi since then - a good series.


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BRG

[ghinzani]

Looks like the Beeb have some classic Turkish GPs for us this weekend. Quite a feat that!
http://www.bbc.co.uk...d_prix_hig.html

[D.M.N.]

Looks like the Beeb have some classic Turkish GPs for us this weekend. Quite a feat that!
http://www.bbc.co.uk...d_prix_hig.html

It'll be back to normal service in Britain with extended highlights from the past ala like it was with Australia, Spain and Monaco.

You telling me you didn't know?;)

Edited by D.M.N., 02 June 2009 - 19:47.

[lil'chris]

On the issue of Jonathan Palmer as a commentator, I agree he was a bit underrated. But my main beef with him was his hypocrisy over "baulking" by back markers. When he was in F1, with RAM, he was one of the worst baulkers, but the BBC commentary team of the time (Walker and Hunt) would always blame his team mate Martini. As we all know, British drivers are perfect gentlemen who never, ever do anything unsporting, whereas Italians are untrustworthy, shifty, etc etc (roll out those stereotypes). The fact that any fool could see that it was usually our dear Jonathan blocking the leader’s progress mattered naught…

However, I guess he has redeemed himself with Formula Palmer Audi since then - a good series.


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BRG

Surely Palmers teammate at RAM was Alliot rather than Martini ?

[pertti_jarla]

I once saw, in a 60's Motor Sport magazine, a mention of a dramatized tv play about Moss and Jenkinson in Mille Miglia. Destroyed, for sure?

[Tim Murray]

I once saw, in a 60's Motor Sport magazine, a mention of a dramatized tv play about Moss and Jenkinson in Mille Miglia. Destroyed, for sure?

Apparently not. More details on the play here:

http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=3411019

RobertE's post 30 in that thread indicates that the film does still exist, but Stirling is against it ever being rebroadcast.

[Stephen W]

I once saw, in a 60's Motor Sport magazine, a mention of a dramatized tv play about Moss and Jenkinson in Mille Miglia. Destroyed, for sure?

It was superb.

[Gregor Marshall]

I don't think the BBC used F1 coverage for quite a while - there's a great clip of my late Dad at Brands in '76 commenting on the fact he had listened to Hunt winning the championship and the fact there must have been some English time keepers in Japan!!

If you want BBC coverage it's £300 per minute......

Edited by Gregor Marshall, 03 June 2009 - 19:56.

[Gary C]

I used to work in the BBC Film and Videotape Library -- it's all been wiped, believe me. More recent stuff (i.e. 1980's onwards ) is still perhaps in the archive, anything before that & you're struggling. Same goes for ITV.

[E.C.]

Were there any tv broadcasts of the 1976 British GP? I have seen various film clips over the years, never any actual broadcast footage. I had assumed that this was during the period when the BBC wouldn't show F1 because of their phobia about advertising, however I recently came across a film clip of Murray Walker attempting to interview James Hunt during the race stoppage....did the BBC cover that race?

[Gregor Marshall]

I have a tape of about 35 minutes of BBC coverage of the '76 GP at Brands.

[tom58long]

there is a film called ´1976 John Player Grand Prix´ which details i can´t remember at the present moment. but as far as i still know it features nearly 60 minutes of the whole weekend and i remember that i was enlightend by the "live atmosphere" the film delivered.

tom

[PeterElleray]

Were there any tv broadcasts of the 1976 British GP? I have seen various film clips over the years, never any actual broadcast footage. I had assumed that this was during the period when the BBC wouldn't show F1 because of their phobia about advertising, however I recently came across a film clip of Murray Walker attempting to interview James Hunt during the race stoppage....did the BBC cover that race?

Gregor, are you sure, because they didnt televise it ... there is a film of the same length that was shown on itv in the following weeks and has been featured on mfq?

peter

[Andrew Kitson]

I have a tape of about 35 minutes of BBC coverage of the '76 GP at Brands.

Me too..
Quite superb. It is a Texaco film I think, not BBC.

Edited by Andrew Kitson, 16 July 2009 - 07:34.

[RCH]

Just found this thread, I can remember watching most BBC motor racing broadcasts from Monaco 1961 onwards, they would broadcast live parts of any GP they could get a (free?) link for so long as it did not interfere with something important like the 3.30 from Kempton...

They also broadcast from the early season British F1 meetings sometimes including snippets of the other events as well as the main event.

They covered Le Mans, usually showing the start, a roundup around 11:00 pm (I was allowed to sit up to watch!) another around 10:00am and the finish, this was up to about 1968.

Not sure when this started but I do recall seeing bits of the '58 British GP, I believe they may have shown something of the British GP right from 1950. I also believe they showed the British GP every year up to losing the franchise despite the advertising dilema. I recall my father mentioning coverage of the 1953 Le Mans which would have been the first year we had a TV but he may have got that mixed up.

As has been said already pretty much all of this would have been either never recorded, wiped, lost or recorded over.

[PeterElleray]

Me too..;)
Quite superb. It is a Texaco film I think, not BBC.

yes - commentary by dickie davis (!) - shown on world of sport.

[Andrew Kitson]

yes - commentary by dickie davis (!) - shown on world of sport.

No not this one...commentary jointly by Barrie Gill & Andrew Marriott with Denny Hulme adding his expertise as pundit.
Murray interviews James a couple of times too.

[PeterElleray]

No not this one...commentary jointly by Barrie Gill & Andrew Marriott with Denny Hulme adding his expertise as pundit.
Murray interviews James a couple of times too.

you're right - i was confusing it with the japanese gp coverage from 76.

and i take your point abiout Murray 'trying' to interview James - and failing... 'dear boy..!!

peter

[Gregor Marshall]

Andrew's description is better than mine and it is the same ;)
A certain GM was a bit of a historian, not that it ever gets mentioned.

[E.C.]

you're right - i was confusing it with the japanese gp coverage from 76.

and i take your point abiout Murray 'trying' to interview James - and failing... 'dear boy..!!

peter

Thank you all for your comments, the gist of which appears to be there was no BBC broadcast but a Texaco film that was shown on World of Sport. Does that mean there was no broadcast outside the UK, if there was no UK host broadcaster? What was Murray Walker doing? Working for Texaco - ? I had presumed he might have been there for BBC radio (does anyone know for sure?). I love that "dear boy" clip where Murray tries to interview Hunt (after the Lap1 stoppage), he asks something like "what happened" and then immediately starts gabbing into the microphone - not paying the slightest attention to whether James is actually saying anything.

I am also interested in what Murray Walker was -or was not doing - in Fuji that year. I've got a 20min highlight tape from the ITV coverage with Andrew Marriott commentating. I have also seen clips from the BBC version with either Walker's commentary or someone else - I believe that someone else was Barrie Gill, but not entirely sure. Did Walker actually commentate on that race or was there a "voiceover" done for certain clips in later years?

[Gary C]

In the early years of the BBC F1 coverage, Murray wasn't at the circuit, he would be back at Television Centre at Shepherd's Bush and commentate on the incoming 'live' pictures. Obviously, for a British GP he would be at the circuit, but for the further away races he stayed at home.

[tom58long]

couldn´t resist and searched the tapes for "1976 British Grand Prix". seems to be the same thing already mentioned here. contains about 60 min racing stuff along with some pitlane activity between the two starts. JH always in the focus.

on the way to the podium:

james, how much does this victory means to you? -- 9 points, 20(?)000 dollar and a lot of happiness :-)

[RCH]

In the early years of the BBC F1 coverage, Murray wasn't at the circuit, he would be back at Television Centre at Shepherd's Bush and commentate on the incoming 'live' pictures. Obviously, for a British GP he would be at the circuit, but for the further away races he stayed at home.

In the early years of BBC F1 coverage Murray Walker was doing what he did best, commentating on motor bikes. The BBC commentator was Raymond Baxter. Muddly Talker would do some radio commentary on cars.

The set up for British events in the early days when the BBC was actually at the track was Baxter doing the main commentary; John Bolster running up and down the pit lane and Robin Richards and Eric Tobitt somewhere around the circuit.

For continental GPs Raymond Baxter would be in the studio commentating off a monitor.

Throughout the Murray Walker period I was forever shouting "Bring back Raymond Baxter" at the screen! Sorry Murray should you happen to see this.

[AJB]

They covered Le Mans, usually showing the start, a roundup around 11:00 pm (I was allowed to sit up to watch!) another around 10:00am and the finish, this was up to about 1968.

Me too! I remember in 1967 the Chaparral pounding around on the Sunday morning, lights ablaze, after a lengthy pitstop to repair the transmission. 1969 was also broadcast as I remember watching the battle between Ickx and Herrmann over the closing laps.

[rallen]

Does anyone have any more information or a link to the 1976 John Player Grand Prix texaco film?

Edited by rallen, 30 January 2011 - 11:41.

[nmansellfan]

Sometimes a clip of something gets shown on tv that you thought just didn't exist, e.g. when Raymond Baxter passed away, the BBC broadcast a 1 hour tribute programme, within which there was a clip of their broadcast of the 1967 Monaco GP with Baxter commentating, with him pronouncing the Chicane as 'Chicaaan'. Together with the clip of the last 3 of 4 laps of the same years Italian GP that's fairly well known, and the 60 minute highlight programme of the German GP that year that I've seen (from ZDF TV i think), thats 3 Grand Prix from 1967 that exist in TV archives at least. (Although in the case of the Italian GP I don't think its the whole race). I wonder how many more GP's from the 60's are sitting in a broadcasters archive? Certainly looking on Youtube, I think the German, Austrian and Italian archives are better kept than the UK in that respect.

[The Oracle]

The 1976 British GP was not - to the best of my limited knowledge as I was still in the womb at the time - broadcast by the BBC due to the Surtees team being sponsored by Durex although I have seen footage on a VHS (remeber them!) which also had footage of the 1978(ish) race of giants from Macau, recentley I have got the Duke DVD of the Race of Giants but I doesn't comtain the Macau history or Hello, Hello Dickie intro that the VHS did, anyone able to help with locating an original I would be most grateful.

Apologise for the thread hijack.

[LittleChris]

The 1976 British GP was not - to the best of my limited knowledge as I was still in the womb at the time - broadcast by the BBC due to the Surtees team being sponsored by Durex

I thought it was the Race of Champions that they wouldn't broadcast due to the Surtees Durex sponsorship ?

[Gregor Marshall]

Does anyone have any more information or a link to the 1976 John Player Grand Prix texaco film?

I have it on video and DVD - IIRC it was put together on a video by Barry Hinchcliffe - will check when I get home.

[charles r]

I thought it was the Race of Champions that they wouldn't broadcast due to the Surtees Durex sponsorship ?

My recollection too.

[The Oracle]

I thought it was the Race of Champions that they wouldn't broadcast due to the Surtees Durex sponsorship ?

Might well have been sure I read that was the reason for one race not being shown though

[racer69]

Wasn't the Race of Champions the start of the whole epsiode, rather than the only occurence?

In terms of Australian coverage, i've forever wondered if footage of Channel 7(?)'s live coverage of the 1976 Japanese GP has survived time (though if the survival rate of Bathurst footage is anything to go by, not likely). This was, as far as i know, the first time a World Championship GP was shown on Australian TV.

[bathceltic]

Were there any tv broadcasts of the 1976 British GP? I have seen various film clips over the years, never any actual broadcast footage. I had assumed that this was during the period when the BBC wouldn't show F1 because of their phobia about advertising, however I recently came across a film clip of Murray Walker attempting to interview James Hunt during the race stoppage....did the BBC cover that race?

I am pretty sure the bbc did not cover it. However instead it is quite easy to get hold of an excellent 25 minute film made by Barrie Gill's company with the afore mentioned commentating. It is archive 'style' in terms of picture but like tv coverage in terms of camera position the car being followed round a whole lap so nothing like the awful (imo) brunswick footage (I know it is better than nothing.) In terms of Murray interviewing James at Brands 76 that is exciting as i thought the bbc gave it a wide birth due to the height of the durex fuss.
If you are desperate I can pm you a link to a bit of a cad who rips me off but if you are desperate enough he will supply it at a price.

[chrisj]

What's frustrating is that TV race coverage of the German GP throughout the sixties is available, but not 1968 -- the year I'd most like to see. Or from '76, really good full race coverage of France, Austria and Italy, but no Dutch GP -- maybe the best race of the year. Another thing, Jackie Stewart's style was/is always described as precise and clinical, but on TV footage of the '71 Spanish GP, he's sliding that Tyrrell around like a sprint car! Makes me question some of the things I've read over the years.

[nmansellfan]

Agree with you there chrisJ! Possibly the '68 race wasn't recorded or even broadcast as when ZDF set their camera's up on race morning, they might not have been able to see a thing through the camera viewfinders! Perhaps this led to abandonment of the TV broadcast. Other than that, there is a run from 1963 - 1975 of German GP TV broadcasts hanging around from different sources. I have seen 30 odd seconds of TV footage of the '76 race too, in B&W, from the camera position before Bergwerk. It doesn't catch Lauda's shunt - perhaps mercifully, otherwise it would be shown every time the well known Super 8 footage of his shunt appears on documentaries. There is a jump cut before the camera swings round to show the field stopping and the rescue taking place. Putting aside Lauda's shunt, I would love to see the rest of the broadcast, as it demonstrated the ultimate in racing car technology at the time being wrestled around a very old world race track (even after the '70 upgrades to the Nordshleife). I've seen film clips of Lauda, Hunt, Depailler et al during qualifying on the Saturday of the '76 GP and it makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up watching them average 120mph for a lap.

Edited by nmansellfan, 19 July 2011 - 12:10.

[chrisj]

For me, the holy grail of TV coverage would be the '68 British Grand Prix. I was happy to find 3 minutes of English language broadcast footage here (from 2:30 to 5:30):



It includes a very short Barrie Gill interview with Siffert on the winner's truck.

I've seen another, shorter clip from the same broadcast footage (from a documentary about the friendship of Siffert and the sculptor Jean Tinguely).

Anyway, it proves that there is video out there somewhere. It would be great if it surfaced some day.

[dweller23]

For me, the holy grail of TV coverage would be the '68 British Grand Prix. I was happy to find 3 minutes of English language broadcast footage here (from 2:30 to 5:30):



It includes a very short Barrie Gill interview with Siffert on the winner's truck.

I've seen another, shorter clip from the same broadcast footage (from a documentary about the friendship of Siffert and the sculptor Jean Tinguely).

Anyway, it proves that there is video out there somewhere. It would be great if it surfaced some day.

Different part of original TV broadcast can be also seen in History of Motor Racing 1960s. However, as far as I know, it was ITV who showed British GP in 1968, not BBC (due to the situation with advertisements).

As for 1976 German GP - I've heard that full TV footage of the race exists, but it's not possible to get it due to some sort of copyright issues between German TV and the company which filmed it.

[bill p]

However, as far as I know, it was ITV who showed British GP in 1968, not BBC (due to the situation with advertisements).

Agreed. There was also a Preview Programme by ITV on the Friday evening showing practice/qualifying

Edited by bill p, 08 August 2011 - 15:48.