47 replies to this topic

[AUSTRIA]

In the post-war years there were a lot of french "Ecuries", as you can see in the list below. The french were the first after the war beginning with car-racing. The first races in September 1945 (!) in different classes at Bois de Bologne (Paris) were dominatet by french drivers in french cars : Wimille/Bugatti, Louveau/own Maserati, Gordini/Simca. In the first season after the war in 1946 11 from 15 races took place in france! And many more or less crazy guys established a racing-team. In the added list the private entrants, pilotes which buyed and drove their own cars, are not included!! Who has the survey over this chaos? Who knows the people in front and behind, the connections, and the developments from one in another "Ecurie", even by changing only the name or so.

Maybe anyone knows nice anectotes about or with the people listet or demanded ....

Hope for many replies ...


Here is the list:

Ecurie Blanche et Noir
1945 Bugatti: Friderich
1946 Alfa Romeo 8C-2300: diff.(f.e. Wimille)
____ Delahaye: Friderich

Ecurie Autosport
.. connections to Scuderia Plate ?
1946 Maserati,(Talbot SC): deGraffenried, Bassadona, Chiron, (Plate E., ...)
1947 Maserati: deGraffenried, (Bassadona, ..)
1948 Maserati: Ramseyer
____ Cisitalia:Canonica, Bernheim, ..

Ecurie Helvetia Course
1949 Cisitalia:Canonica, Bernheim, Noverraz

Ecurie Tricolore
1946 Bugatti, Maserati: Trintignant, (Lanza)

Ecurie Rosier
.. connections to Ecurie Tricolore and Ecurie France?
1946 Talbot-Lago: Rosier, ( Chiron, 1 )
1947 Talbot-Lago: Rosier, Giraud-Cabantous
1948 Talbot-Lago: Rosier, Giraud-Cabantous, Chaboud ...
1949 Talbot-Lago: Rosier, Chaboud
1950 Talbot-Lago: Rosier, (Louveau)
1951 Talbot-Lago: Rosier, Chiron, (Louveau)

Ecurie France
1947 Delahaye, Delage: Loyer, Achard, Louveau
1948 Maserati: Bernheim, Chiron

SFACS Ecurie France
.. close connected to Talbot-Darracq ?
1946 Talbot-Lago: Chiron, (Chaboud)
____ Delahaye: Chaboud, Grignard, Trillaud, (Giraud-Cabantous)
1947 Talbot-Lago: Chiron, Chaboud
____ Delahaye: Chaboud, Trillaud, Giraud-Cabantous, Pozzi, ..
1948 Talbot-Lago: Chiron, Chaboud, Giraud-Cabantous
____ Delahaye: (Mairesse)
1949 Talbot-Lago: Mairesse, Schell, 'Bira', Chiron, ..)

Ecurie France Course
1946 Maserati: Etancelin

Ecurie Naphtra Course
1946 Maserati: 'Raph'

Ecurie Souris Blanche
.. connections to Prince Chula ('Bira') and HRH Prince Birabongse ?
1947 Maserati, ERA: 'Bira' (hat his own Stable)

Ecurie Atalante
1946 Maserati, Delahaye: Achard

Centre d'Etudes T.A.
1948 Maserati: Sommer

Ecurie Mundia-Corse
1948 Talbot-Lago: 'Raph', Chaboud
1949 Maserati, Delahaye,(Talbot-Lago):'Raph'

Ecurie Franco-Americaine
= Ecurie Lucey O'Riley Schell
= Ecurie Bleu
= Horschell Racing
1946 Maserati: Mazaud (fatal inj.), Schell
1947 Cisitalia: Schell
1948 Cisitalia: Schell
1949 Talbot-Lago, (Cisitalia): Schell,Sommer)
1950 Talbot-Lago: (Schell)

Ecurie Diemex
1949 Maserati, Delahaye: Chaboud

Ecurie Lutetia (belonged to Chaboud)
1948 Talbot-Lago, Delahaye: Chaboud, Pozzi
1949 Talbot-Lago, Delage: Chaboud, Pozzi, Meyrat

Ecurie de Paris
1948 Cisitalia: Loyer
1949 Cisitalia: (Loyer, 'Robert')

Ecurie belge
1948 Talbot-Lago: Claes
1949 Talbot-Lago: Claes
1950 Talbot-Lago: Claes
1951 Talbot-Lago: Claes

Ecurie belgique
1951 Talbot-Lago: (Mairesse, Pilette A, Swaters)

Sorry because of my bad english, I want to practice this way - learning by doing ;-)

E.T.



[This message has been edited by AUSTRIA (edited 01-29-2000).]

[Pascal]

Les "Ecuries françaises"

Sadly, I have no information myself, but I would definitely be interested in knowing more...

[AUSTRIA]

Pascal

My french is even worse as my english!!

E.T.

[Dennis David]

That's a tough one as the best history on this period is all in French and not much covered by the British motoring press. Of course one of the unifying threads is the Talbot-Lago. The Lago coming from Major Antonio (Tony) Lago who rescued the Franco-British Sunbeam-Talbot-Darracq car works. To publicize his new company he turned to racing and with the support of the Automobile Club de France he built a number of different cars powered by engines as varied as a supercharged 3-litre V16 and a 4 ½ litre sportscar based 6 cylinder. The War put a stop to racing on the continent but as soon as hostilities stopped the French were back at it.

With both Germany and England on the sidelines (actually England was never a threat to continental racing during the preceding years anyway) the French ruled the tracks. The Ecurie France was a top team under the patronage of Paul Vallée and with drivers such as Louis Chiron and Louis Rosier who’s style was nicknamed “hasten slowly”.

According to Doug Nye these cars were called “Large Tablets” in Australia. Nothing graceful about these cars, they won on dependability and fuel economy. Louis Rosier won the title Champion of France four years running and his many successes included wining the 1950 Le Mans he drove 20 of the 24 hours and was relieved by has son! How many other father-son victories at LeMans were there? After he died on a rain slick Montlhery circuit he was awarded the French Order of the Nation.

I’m not sure of the relationship between Ecurie Belge and Equipe Nationale Belge which was the umbrella group sponsoring Belgian interests in racing but I do know that the top Belgian driver of that period was Johnny Claes who in 1951 won the Liege-Rome-Liege Rally without the loss of a single mark, which is next to impossible. Driving a private Jaguar XK120 his co-driver was Jacques Ickx whose son I understand had some success of his own! Claes died at the age of 39 of tuberculosis.


------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Don Capps]

Austria,

Great stuff! And obviously someone I find with the sort of interests we need more of in this world. As DD pointed out, there is a lack of information on these types topics due to our continued reliance on the English-speaking press and histories.

Austria has picked a great topic for a Special over on 8W. I have bits and pieces of this, but not the time to pull it together. This also ties in with the Talbot thread: I have nearly all the chassis numbers and races in most of the GP races sorted out and wished I HAD spent the several hundard dollars for the books since it would have been easier I am sure!

Again, great stuff!

------------------
Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Felix Muelas]

Friends,

Yes, an excellent suggestion. You might remember (or not) that under Racer.Demon's umbrella -the Master of 8W-(see http://www.racer.dem...r/pwpc-yby.html ) we started to publish some infos -mainly statistical, in the first place- about the immediate post-war racing and although it is not finished -or even attempted to be finished- it provides an unvaluable source as to locate many names of people, teams and cars in an organised way.
Of course, my first suggestion is to pay a visit.
Secondly, I like Austria's approach by segmenting the French -the curiously more unknown of these- "ecuries" for proposing a deeper study.
Two minor items, though:
a) Austria's list contains a mention to the Centre d' Etudes Techniques de l' Automobile et du Cycle (CTA)-the builders, under Lory's design, of the CTA-Arsenal, as implying that, some time during 1948, CTA could have entered a Maserati. In his discharge, I must say that we also include this entry. But, in my humble opinion this fact, although recalled by Sheldon in one of his entry lists, is plain wrong. I have found no mention whatsoever of chassis 1555 -Sommer's 4CM- ever being "lent" or sold to CTA in any other sources. I think the story is much simpler, with Sommer entering the 4CM -already agreed to be sold to Bob Ansell -for the French GP 1948 with the knowledge that the CTA would, if run, be a fiasco. Not that the Maserati would end up saving his face ( a broken engine on lap two speaks for itself) but we know how Sommer used to have "B" plans. :-)

b) Ecurie Souris Blanche. Yes, I go along Austria's suggestion : connections to Bira's stable are obvious. Too obvious, in fact. I don´t know the story behind, or who originated this translation (our beloved Auditor, Hans Etzrodt should be told) but I am in favour of simply ignoring this as a "French" ecurie...

On the rest, let me please extend the suggestion from Don to draw the lines for a 8W Special...

Un abrazo,

Felix
The 8W Team

------------------

[AUSTRIA]

Thanks to Dennis, Don and Felix !

Dennis:
Paul Vallée drove a Talbot-Lago in 1949 for the 'SFACS Ecurie France', which is to distinguish from the 'Ecurie France'.
Chiron drove never for 'Ecurie France'.
Rosier did, but drove not for 'SFACS Ecurie France' !
Are you shure, Vallée headed the 'Ecurie France', or was it the 'SFACS Ecurie France'?

Don:
Would it be possible please, you mail me yout listings about Talbot-Lago, you mentioned? In your 'case history' i didn't find much about Talbot-Lago.

Felix:
You may be right. The list above is a question, not an answer ! And the detail about the C.T.A.-Maserati is token from the 'post-war pre-champ constructor history' under Racer.Demon, which you mentioned and recommendet to me. Now I am at the point missing more information. Maybe you can help me anyway?

E.T.

[Dennis David]

The source I referenced gave no distinction.

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Felix Muelas]

Austria,

Well, that is what I call (in a very free translation from my mother tongue, that is Spanish) the fish eating its own tail !
(provided fishes do have tails, that is just one assumption. Their final ends might be called something else, but I´m sure you get the idea).
Now, the prospect of tracing the relations betwwen the french ecuries through the identification of the actual chassis numbers of their cars -what seems a quite logical step to try- might produce some results, but I think we have to devote some time to further investigate this subject. As usual, I will recommend, as a starting point, to ask Don for sources that have to be studied. He will probably be able to help, and you might take further steps as from his suggestions. Well, that's what I would do, anyway. :-)
On a different planet, the 6th Gear site, as I told you yesterday, has not finished with its investigation on the period and now, with the 8W Game taking a break of several months at the end of February, it is not improbable that some more details will arise.
(This thing of talking in "impersonal" mode, whilst very correct, apparently, gives me a very curious sensation of distance).
We will be delighted of sharing any info with you, although as it is not "digitalised" yet, your patience will be very appreciated.
And, of course, any other of your projects that might look as complicated as this one will always be welcomed for publication on the 8W Specials.
;-)
Felix Muelas
The 8W Team



------------------

[AUSTRIA]

Thank you Felix!

Don:
First, I dare asking a second time, if it would it be possible, you mail me your listings about Talbot-Lago, you mentioned?

Second, following to Felix' proposal, which sources can you suggest me researching this subject?

------------------

E.T.

***********************
Sorry because of my bad english, I want to practice by this way - learning by doing ;-)
Please tell me frank, if there are mistakes ...

[This message has been edited by AUSTRIA (edited 02-03-2000).]

[Dennis David]

Try http://www.talbot-lago.ch/index-e.htm

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Dennis David]

Try these also.

Fédération Internationale des
Véhicules Anciens (FIVA)
Adresse de correspondance / mailing address
M. Michel de Thomasson
49, Bd Suchet
75016 PARIS
France
Tel. : (33-1) 45.27.39.70
Fax : (33-1) 45.20.39.71

Président : Francesco Guasti

Automobile Club de France
6-8, Place de la Concorde
75008 PARIS
Tel. : (33-1) 43.12.43.12
Fax : (33-1) 43.12.43.43

Président : Marquis de Flers

Fédération Française des Automobile-Clubs et des Usagers de la Route
8, place de la Concorde
75008 PARIS
Tel. : (33-1) 53 30 89 30
Fax : (33-1) 53 30 89 29
e-mail: ffac@wnadoo.fr
www.automobileclub.org

Président : Christian Gérondeau

There is also a book on the history of French Sports Car Racing, I'll try to find it out.



------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Don Capps]

Austria,

AS soon as I find my notes, they are still in hand-written form and haven't been put into electrons yet, I will gladly pass them along. It will take some time, but I will get them to you.



------------------
Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Egon Thurner]

Always interesting this.

Who can give me some more information about:

Ecurie France Course and Ecurie Atalante ?

Had there been any relationship between them? Who where 'the people behind'. Obviously Achard was close to Ec. Atalante.

22-04-1946 Nice: Etancelin (Ecurie France Course) Maserati 6CM (s/n 1563)
13-05-1946 Marseille: Achard (private entry - DNA) Bugatti
30-05-1946 Paris: Achard (private entry) Maserati 4CM
09-06-1946 Paris: Achard (Ecurie Atalante - DNA) Maserati 4CM
14-07-1946 Albi: Achard (Ecurie Atalante) Maserati 4CL (s/n 1563)
28-07-1946 Nantes: Achard (Ecurie Atalante) Maserati 4CM
25-08-1946 Trois Villes: Achard (Ecurie Atalante) Delahaye 155

01-06-1947 Nimes: 'Levegh'* (Achard !) Delahaye 155
13-07-1947 Albi: Achard (Ecurie France Course) Delahaye 155
10-08-1947 Comminges: Achard (Ecurie France Course - DNA) Delahaye 155
10-08-1947 Comminges: Achard (Ecurie France Course - DNA) Maserati 4CM(Reserve)

* Achard himself drove a Delage from Ecurie Gersac. He had switched cars with 'Levegh', who was team leader of the 'Gersac' before! Also Etancelin (the former 'France Course' - driver, see above) was driver in the Ecurie Gersac by that time! So maybe also 'Gersac' was closely related to the both other mentioned 'ecuries'?

So - who can give me some hints?

('facts' above from Sheldon's black books Vol IV and 6th gear)


P.S. - Think, we shouldn't take the Maserati type specifications too serios. Too easy to produce mistakes, especially, when fitting a 4CL-engine into a 6CM-car.

[alessandro silva]

Well Egon, I am researching this period since last November and I can
sketch some of my findings for 46/48 in relation with French Ecuries. It
is not such a mess after all.


Ecurie Blanche et Noire. Based in Nice very possibly in the premises of
the Friderich family. They got hold of the surviving Delahaye 155
"gasworks" 12cyl that was a terrible car. It was soon sold to Achard, who
had a terrible accident with it in Albi losing a wheel and later ended in
the hands of André Simon.

Ecurie Tricolore.
It was M. Trintignant's private racing outfit.

Ecurie Rosier.
Louis Rosier's cars were often raced under this banner. They were kept in
Rosier's garage in Clermont-Ferrand. His main 46/47 car was a 150 sports
(ch 90111) with a (very ugly) special singleseater body. At the beginning
of 1948 Rosier got hold of the first Talbot T26C but the other car was
still raced by different drivers. NO relation with the other teams you
mention.

Ecurie France and SFACS Ecurie France.
The problem here is that only Paul Sheldon uses the complete Socièté
Française Automobiles de Competition Sportive (or something of that kind)
Ecurie France. In French records you usually find only Ecurie France.
The story of SFACS Ecurie France winds around the 1939 Talbot Lago
Monoplace Centrale ch90201. The car was raced by the works three times
early 1946 and driven by Chiron. It was put away and Chiron was obliged
to continue his racing season with the odd oil-leaking Maserati. In the
same period a man called Paul Vallée opened a shop very much along the
lines of the original Scuderia Ferrari for maintaining in racing fitness
the cars of selected partners. Chaboud, Trillaud, Pozzi and Grignard
had their more or less special Delahayes kept and entered by the Ecurie.
Vallée was able, end of 1946, of getting his hands on the Monoplace
Centrale 90121 and on a Monoplace Decalée. Chaboud drove MC with two
strong wins early 1947 at Perpignan and Marseille. In the while Chiron
was trying hard to get the car back for himself arriving to serve as
timekeeper for Vallée! Maurice Louche, in his monumental "Un siècle de
grands pilotes français", says that Chiron "charmed" Vallée, and
actually got the Talbot. Chaboud was very unfairly demoted to his
Delahaye and very soon he and Pozzi left Vallée to open Ecurie Lutetia.
Giraud-Cabantous was hired as second driver for Ecurie France on the MD.
Later Vallée bought also a T26C. I do not know yet how Vallée's
enterprise ended.

Ecurie Lutetia.
To be precise it was Pozzi and Chaboud's racing outfit. Chaboud, a
compulsive gambler, was not suited to manage a team. Pozzi's later
history shows that he was able to do it. Lutetia means Paris in Latin and
they entered also cars of Parisian friends.

"Scuderia" (not Ecurie) France Course.
John Eason Gibson in "Motor Racing 1946" says that Ruggeri took a totally
unsuitable old 6CM Maserati for Etancelin to race at Nice. This is the
only showing of Scuderia France Course.

Ecurie Naphtra Course.
Managed by Denise Depoix, this outfit got hold of the Alfa Romeo 308 used
by Sommer right before WWII and kept by him in his St. Cloud premises.
Wimille took 3 wins with this car in 1946 and it was still raced in the
1948 SA races. An ordinary 4CL Maserati was used by Raph. This colourful
driver had lost all of his family's money and was obliged to act as
Maurice Chevalier's (the famous French actor) chauffeur when not racing.
It is then doubtful that he might have had some interest in the team.

Ecurie Mundia Course.
It is the continuation of Naphtra Course. Raph had a terrible accident at
Comminges 1948 and tiried an unsuccessful comeback the following year on
a new T26C. Mundia Course faded with him.

Ecurie Souris Blanc.
Souris Blanc means White Mouse in French. Some French organizers did not
allow foreign words in the entries. I am not kidding.

Ecurie Atalante.
Very appropriately for its name it still escapes me. This rather
backmarkerish Achard pops out in the strangest places. I understand he
died in a Brazilian race 1951 (?).

CTA.
Of course Sommer took along his Maserati.

The Shell family teams.
Lucy found herself with a 4CL and a 6CM Maseratis after the war. It is
not clear but it is a likely guess that Mazaud owned the 4cyl. After his
death Harry got rid of the decrepit 6CM and they bought two D46
Cisitalias in early 47. The Horschell early Talbot was one of the two MD's
taken to Indianapolis by Le Bègue and Trevoux in 1941; Raced by Zora
Duntov in some American races, was taken back to France by Harry!

Scuderia or Ecurie Diemex.
One foot on each side of the Alps. A minor team, it very much puzzles me
because two of the more elusive second string Italian drivers of the
period, Ugo Puma and Dioscoride Lanza, raced sometimes its (?) cars.

Ecurie Paris was the name used by Roger Loyer to enter his Cisitalia D46.
At least 5 D46's ended up in France early 1947.

Well, as a general comment, I'd say that more of the history of French
46/48 racing could be made easier if besides the Lago ones, we had also
the Delahayes chassis numbers. Cars of both makes were virtually
unbreakable and the same components followed the entire car through a
very long life. No hope to have the same for the huge number of
Maseratis. As a (futile) exercise I tried to trace Sommer's 1946 cars; no
way.

I am going to France next June and I hope to come out with the history of
French racing for one of the years 46/48 sometimes next Summer.

[David McKinney]

To pick up the Belgian thread of the thread.
Ecurie Belge was all Claes, whereas Ecurie Belgique, as mentioned, used a variety of drivers, and I think was more less the same thing as what was known a little later as Ecurie Francorchamps.
The Equipe Nationale Belge was formed in January 1955 to facilitate negotiations with manufacturers, sponsors and organisers. By absorbing Ecurie Francorchamps, it was able to put Claes, Pilette, Frère, Swaters and Laurent all in one team.

[Egon Thurner]

First of all, thank you Alessandro ! A very comprehensive and informative contribution.

Originally posted by alessandro silva

Ecurie Rosier.
His main 46/47 car was a 150 sports (ch 90111) with a (very ugly) special singleseater body.

It was the offset single seater, called 'monoplace decalée' in french. The first car of the '90-series' and Lago's first singleseater.

Ecurie France and SFACS Ecurie France.
The problem here is that only Paul Sheldon uses the complete Socièté Française Automobiles de Competition Sportive (or something of that kind) Ecurie France. In French records you usually find only Ecurie France.

I was already able to solve that puzzle by myself. Sheldon had confused me first, because he some times has 'Ecurie France' and also 'Ecurie Tricolore' for Rosier !!! Nonsens, off course.

The story of SFACS Ecurie France winds around the 1939 Talbot Lago Monoplace Centrale ch90201. The car was raced by the works three times early 1946 and driven by Chiron.

Only for completeness: It was first raced by Raymond Sommer in September 1945 and the three times by Chiron in 1946.

It was put away and Chiron was obliged to continue his racing season with the odd oil-leaking Maserati.

Another 'Ecurie', but Swiss-based: Ecurie Autosport

In the same period a man called Paul Vallée opened a shop very much along the lines of the original Scuderia Ferrari for maintaining in racing fitness the cars of selected partners. Chaboud, Trillaud, Pozzi and Grignard had their more or less special Delahayes kept and entered by the Ecurie.

Alessandro, do you know, who owned the bunch of Delahayes ? Wasn't Paul Vallée on eof the three owners of pre-war Ecurie bleu, together with Lucy Schell and Dreyfus? Maybe Vallée had taken over three or four of the cars. Refering to Darren's Pozzi-anectode in the Pozzi-thread it seams, he owned his car, bought from Emile Cornet. One of Vallée's cars carried plate s/n 47193, driven in 1946 mainly (or only) by Chaboud. Maybe MarCoR knows more about the Delahayes, for he has access to some of the Abeillon-stuff.

Vallée was able, end of 1946, of getting his hands on the Monoplace Centrale 90121 and on a Monoplace Decalée.

90121 ?
I don't know that car! (Please check the number again, i'm highly intrigued in the Talbot-story!) End of 1946 he (Vallée) got the works-'Centrale' (90201). In June 1947 he was able to get the second (new!) built 'Centrale (90202) and in October 1947 the third one (90203, also new built). After that he also took a 'Decalée', this time from Chinetti, who brought the ex-Zuntov car back to Europe and raced it twice himself under the banner of 'Ecurie France', winning the Salon-race end of 1947. The car was driven during 1948 - yet by Paul Vallée's team and then sold to Harry Schell, who drove it 1949 (and maybe also the further time, do not know exactly from my mind)

Chaboud drove MC with two strong wins early 1947 at Perpignan and Marseille. In the while Chiron was trying hard to get the car back for himself arriving to serve as timekeeper for Vallée! Maurice Louche, in his monumental "Un siècle de grands pilotes français", says that Chiron "charmed" Vallée, and actually got the Talbot.

I always thought, that Vallée run the Talbot's quasi as a 'semi-works-team' for Lago and Chiron was part of the deal - ?

Chaboud was very unfairly demoted to his Delahaye and very soon he and Pozzi left Vallée to open Ecurie Lutetia.

He had been Vallée's No. 1 in 1946 and for sure was upset.

Giraud-Cabantous was hired as second driver for Ecurie France on the MD. Later Vallée bought also a T26C. I do not know yet how Vallée's enterprise ended.

No T26C, Alessandro. As listed above, three 'centrale' and Zuntov's 'Decalée'. Maybe I'm wrong, but don't think so.

"Scuderia" (not Ecurie) France Course.
John Eason Gibson in "Motor Racing 1946" says that Ruggeri took a totally unsuitable old 6CM Maserati for Etancelin to race at Nice. This is the only showing of Scuderia France Course.

Absolutely new for me! And interesting! So Ruggeri had his Scuderia Milano on the one and then the little competitive 'Scuderia Franco Course' on the other side.

Ecurie Naphtra Course.
An ordinary 4CL Maserati was used by Raph.

It was his own car, purchased in 1948 - a 6CM s/n 1556.

Ecurie Atalante.
Very appropriately for its name it still escapes me. This rather
backmarkerish Achard pops out in the strangest places. I understand he died in a Brazilian race 1951 (?).

Seems, that 'Sheldon's 'Ecorie Franco Course for Achard again is wrong and it must read 'Ecurie Atalante' ?

The Shell family teams.
Lucy found herself with a 4CL and a 6CM Maseratis after the war. It is not clear but it is a likely guess that Mazaud owned the 4cyl.

I'm not sure, but I think that the 4CL was not Mazaud's, but the ex 'Tongue'-4CL (s/n 1567), bought by the Schell's. The 6CM was their old 1936 (?) built own car (s/n 1531).

The Horschell early Talbot was one of the two MD's taken to Indianapolis by Le Bègue and Trevoux in 1941; Raced by Zora Duntov in some American races, was taken back to France by Harry!

See above - s/n 90-131. The other car had returned much earlier to Europe, if I guess right and it must have been Rosiers car (s/n 90111)

Well, as a general comment, I'd say that more of the history of French 46/48 racing could be made easier if besides the Lago ones, we had also the Delahayes chassis numbers. Cars of both makes were virtually unbreakable and the same components followed the entire car through a very long life. No hope to have the same for the huge number of Maseratis. As a (futile) exercise I tried to trace Sommer's 1946 cars; no way.

Alessandro, I fully agree. Thanks for that fantastic stuff. I will mail you an Abeillon-article about Delahaye s/n 47193 tomorrow. In French, but very, very interesting.

I am going to France next June and I hope to come out with the history of French racing for one of the years 46/48 sometimes next Summer.
Hope you will tell us a lot then.

[alessandro silva]

Very interesting Egon, thank you for the corrections.
Let me add some comments.
- As far as I know the Delahayes were individually owned
- Pozzi in fact bought his 135s from Cornet. He owned also a 150 Talbot.
- I do not have clear the kind of partnership between Lucy O'Reilly and Vallée prewar
- 90121 is a misprint; 90201 of course. I did not know about 02 and 03. I am sorely missing a book on Talbots that I have seen in France around 75/80 and that I did not buy because I was in my long recess from motorsport history. Do you know something about? I do not want to buy that huge, outrageous Swiss thing. In any case what would you suggest as good information on the Talbot Lagos?
- I think that T26C 11007 was raced and won the GP de France in 1949 for Vallée.
- Accordingly to John Eason Gibson, Etancelin's Maserati was raced for Scuderia Milano. Sheldon talks about this Scuderia France Course only in that occasion. In any case Etancelin was disgusted.
- Raph raced also a 4CL for Naphtra Course starting in '46. There is photographic evidence of this.
- Are you sure that Rosier's car was an Indy one? The body is totally different.
I thank you for the forthcoming Abeillon article: I can easily read French.

[Egon Thurner]

Originally posted by alessandro silva
I am sorely missing a book on Talbots that I have seen in France around 75/80 and that I did not buy because I was in my long recess from motorsport history. Do you know something about? I do not want to buy that huge, outrageous Swiss thing. In any case what would you suggest as good information on the Talbot Lagos?

An internet-friend from France, whom I unfortunately have lost, suggested me as follows:
... a series of articles in french magazine Auto Passion (number 20, 21, 22, 23 and 31, 32, 33, 34, 35) by Pierre Abeillon, the very same man who wrote the definitive book "Talbot Lago de course". These articles covers the racing Talbot from 1949 to 1957. Magazines are still available for 39 French Francs each at the
following address : S.P.A.L. Auto Passion, 48-50 Bd Sénard, 92210 Saint-Cloud, France. (The price quoted is for a delivery in France, you will have to ask for Italy). If the era covered interests you and your French is good enough, it may worth a look. (It will still be a lot cheaper than to buy Abeillon's whole book)

And MarCoR wrote:
Pierre Abeillon wrote complete articles about the story of the Lago-Talbot in the French publications Le Fanauto (12 year ago) and the following was published in Auto-Passion. You can find those back issues in some specialised bookshops in Paris (n° 235 to 242, Le Fanauto, Auto-Passion n°20 to 23 and 31 to 35). Well of course, It's in French.

Originally posted by alessandro silva
- I think that T26C 11007 was raced and won the GP de France in 1949 for Vallée.

Sorry, of course you are right. Damnd, where are my thoughts. (Becoming old, I think) How could I forget that. Afterwards the car went to Hawks, Australia and was raced there by Whiteford. Ray knows much more about that.

Originally posted by alessandro silva
- Accordingly to John Eason Gibson, Etancelin's Maserati was raced for Scuderia Milano. Sheldon talks about this Scuderia France Course only in that occasion. In any case Etancelin was disgusted.

So this is not clear at the moment and will need further research. Take a look to Sheldon's 1947-records, there he als talks about this Scuderia France Course:
13-07-1947 Albi: Achard (Ecurie France Course) Delahaye 155
10-08-1947 Comminges: Achard (Ecurie France Course - DNA) Delahaye 155
10-08-1947 Comminges: Achard (Ecurie France Course - DNA) Maserati 4CM(Reserve)

Originally posted by alessandro silva
- Are you sure that Rosier's car was an Indy one? The body is totally different.

A wild guess.
Do you have fotos from both US-Talbots, Alessandro ?

[Ray Bell]

Well, Ray knows some more about that.... but being only young, I know less than Barry, who saw it race.

AUSTRIA is, I thought, the resident expert on Lago Talbots. He's been active the past few days, why not PM him, or just wait until he sees this thread?

[Egon Thurner]

Hey, Ray, wake up. It's me !!!!

[Ray Bell]

I recognised your talents, but forgot your name change...

sorry, I expect you now expect me to interview Barry Collerson and find out what he thought about being the smallest man to ever race a Large Talbot?

[Egon Thurner]

Originally posted by alessandro silva
Raph raced also a 4CL for Naphtra Course starting in '46. There is photographic evidence of this.

Alessandro, I would be delighted, if you could send me that picture. No for proving it, but for expanding my very small 1946 Photo archive. (There weren't any Ferraris in 1946, you know.;) )

Would be interesting, if 'Raph' raced the 4CL already in the curtainraising Nice-race.

Another question is, when exactly Bassadona / Kautz / De Graffenried bought their (two?) 4CL's for 'Ecurie Autosport'. And also, if Enrico Platé's 1946-car was one of the both ?

[Marcor]

Egon e-mailed me that night:

"Marc, please have a look into the 'Ecuries francaises' - Thread. Think, you could add a lot. Thank you."

Yes I'm sure I can add something about the topic. I have subscrived to this thread for a long time !

Fun that the topic is about French stables, as it also included Belgian teams !!

I'm not sure Mairesse had a relation with Ecurie Belgique. The Ecurie Belgique bought the Talbot Lago T26C 110006 just before the 1951 Belgian GP to Georges Grignard.

Georges Grignard was the friend of Mairesse, not Willy of course but Guy. Guy was born near the Belgian Frontier (at Warmery) and lived in the North of France (as Raymond Sommer). He was a regular of the Chimay races and won twice the GP des Frontières.

Ecurie belge
1948 Talbot-Lago T26C 110011: Claes
1949 Talbot-Lago T26C 110011: Claes
1950 Talbot-Lago T26C 110011: Claes
1951 Talbot-Lago T26C 110052: Claes
1952 Talbot-Lago T26C 110052: Claes + Pilette (non-championship race of course !!). André Pilette rejoined the Ecurie belge in 1952. He drove the car at Albi and had a crash. The car was damaged.

Ecurie Belgique, changed his name to Ecurie Francorchamps (in 1952 ?)
1951 Talbot-Lago T26C 110006: (André Pilette, Jacques Swaters, Roger Laurent + Charles de Tornaco who didn't drive the car in a race)
1952 Talbot Lago T26C 110006: Charles de Tornaco, Roger Laurent

4 drivers for one car, here's the results of the car in 1951
Belgian GP: André Pilette, 6th
ACF GP: some source says that Guy Mairesse drove the car. I'm not sure, and I don't understand why.
Dutch GP (non championship race), André Pilette, retired but FL
German GP, Jacques swaters, 10th
Albi GP, Roger Laurent, 6th
Italian GP, Jacques Swaters, DNF

and in 1952:
Valentino GP, de Tornaco, NC
Elaintarha Ajot (Finland GP), Roger Laurent, 1st

The Auto-Passion magazine had stopped to come out for two years but a new issue had just come out, number 135 (March - April 2001). I'm not sure it was the same redactional team.

I will post more info in this thread soon, I promise !!!

[David McKinney]

Returning to the exchange between Alessandro and Egon on Rosier's Talbots:
He never raced one of the three pre-war single-seater GP cars. His first racing Talbot after the war was a T150C special, his second was another T150C special, and they were joined by the first of his T26s in 1948.
To summarise the fate of the three pre-war single-seaters: the two offset cars had of course gone to the US in 1941, One of them, MD90130, was used by Duntov in the US 1946/47, Schell in Europe 1948, and Raph in Brazil 1950. Chinetti had meanwhile returned the other offset car, MD90131, to France in 1946, and it was run by Ecurie France (mainly with Giraud-Cabantous) 19467/48, and then competed principally in sportscar events. The central-seat car had been retained by the factory, and was run by them in 1945/46, then Ecurie France (principally Chiron) in 1947/48, and was later rebuilt as a 2-seater.

[alessandro silva]

- David, thank you for the information about Rosier's first car. Maurice Louche calls it a Talbot "Spéciale". It is certainly special in the ugliness of its bodywork!

- Egon, thank you for the Abeillon article. I'll send you the pictures on Sunday or Monday: I am not presently where my books are.

- Going back to the Ruggeri cars at Nice 1946, they where four: three 4CLs and a 6CM. They were retained at customs and released just in time for the last practice session. J. Eason Gibson says that the 6CM was raced by Etancelin and Sheldon gives Etancelin's car entered by a
Scuderia France Course. This name cannot be found in other occasions. The 1947 Ecurie France Course must be connected with Achard and it is very likely a totally different thing.

- The Autosport Maseratis were in 1946 a 4CL, a 6CM and a 4CM, sometimes used with one of the rare 1.1l engines. It should be guessed that the older ones were the original Dupuy/de Graffenried prewar cars.

[Egon Thurner]

David, you are right. Thanks for your correction about Rosier's (first) Talbot and the 'Decalées'. And I did some more mistake, when I wrote: "End of 1946 he (Vallée) got the works-'Centrale' (90201). In June 1947 he was able to get the second (new!) built 'Centrale (90202) and in October 1947 the third one (90203, also new built)."
The second and third of Vallée's Talbots were no 'centrales' of course, but most probably also rebodied 150C-types. I'm lacking pictures of this two cars and also Rosier's, is anybody able help me and close this gap? The only one I found is this one, but I am not able to identify it:



So it is your turn now: Who, what, where, when ?

[alessandro silva]

This should be Pozzi's rebodied Talbot 150C from the shape of the exhaust pipes (the Ecurie Lutetia car). If it is 1947, then it could be Chaboud at the GP de l'ACF.

[tombe]

With the help of David Hodges' book "The French Grand Prix", I can confirm that the picture above is Chaboud at the '47 French GP.

Tom Berge

[Egon Thurner]

Thanks to both. That was my guess too, but on the other hand I doubted it, because the driver looks younger than 40, doesn't he?

[Toine]

Hello to everyone

I have many pictures of my grand father in racing (Gordini,Talbot Lago,etc) in french cars. I could post them as soon as i get back my scanner from work.

Happy Easter

Antoine Pilette

[Egon Thurner]

Hello Toine,

a Happy Easter to you too and welcome on the board. Now we are waiting for the pictures ...

[Ray Bell]

If these young relatives keep on arriving at our Forum we'll have pictures of every driver who ever raced....

A very warm welcome to you Antoine. Please post the pictures soon, and don't be afraid to tell us the secret family stories...

[Toine]

Hello:)

Thanx for your welcome:)
I brought my scanner at work but i plan to get it back soon:)
I see there are some other relatives from racing drivers here, who are they? I became friend of one of Willy Mairesse's son but he into sailing in Britanny, France.

See u

Toine

[Egon Thurner]

Originally posted by Marcor
I will post more info in this thread soon, I promise !!!

waiting, and waiting, and waiting .....

Come on Marc, I rather enjoy your contributions and would be glad to read more about the 'Ecuries' and Talbot-Lago.

E. T.

[Yves]

For those who are interested, la "Revue de l'Automobile historique" n°9 which is just out end of last week give a very solid report on the Talbot monositter cars with the full story chassis by chassis.

This should answer all your questions on Talbot... in french of course

Y.

[alessandro silva]

Yves,
est-ce-que tu pourrais m'envoyer un message avec ton addresse de courier electronique?
silva@mat.uniroma1.it

[Toine]

Tahx a lot, merci beaucoup:) to remind me:)
I gonna buy the magazine tomorrow:)

C U

Antoine Pilette

[Marcor]

I'm curious to check with my own results. Of course I will buy the magazine, clearly the best in French.

OT, but yesterday night, I've had a big problem with my PC. It seems to be a virus. All the files in my desktop had disappeared ! I hope to find it again but ...

This message is sent to a "cyber-café"

[Boniver]

Other look…..

1945 Talbot factory drive by Sommers
------------------------

1946 Talbot factory work exclusief with Chiron

oktobre 1946 the factory team Talbot give the car in hand of Ecurie France
France had drive in 1946 with Delehaye cars

Pozzi drive prive

-------------------
1947 Ecurie France with Chinetti, Chaboud, Pozzi, G Cabantous drive Delehaye and Talbots

in the spring of 1947 come Chiron back in Ecurie France, and was the first driver
so
Chaboud and Pozzi leave Ecurie France and drive prive

------------------------

1948 Ecurie France with Chiron, Mairesse, G Cabantous and Grignard

after one race, Grignard leave the time (garagiste in Paris) and start his team with atelier in Puteaux by the factory of Talbot

Chaboud and Pozzi starten with Ecurie Lutetia (Delahaye and Talbot car)

Chaboud will a better car, and go racing by « Raph » (Ecurie Mundia Course and Naphtra Course with Maserati and Talbot cars ) but the team have no organisation, Chaboud take the team over
and go back together with Ecurie France on the end of the season

-----------

1949 Ecurie France with Chiron, Mairesse and test for Behra

Chaboud and Pozzi race back for Ecurie Lutetia

G Cabantous out team and start a parnership with Grignard

------

1950 start WK F1
Talbot wont a factory team with new cars
Drivers G Cabantous and Martin

GP of GB : G Cabantous and Martin
Team give forfet for Monaco
GP of Suisse : G Cabantous, Martin (Crass ) and prive driver Rosier in the Team
GP of Belgie : G Cabantous , Rosier and prive driver Etancelin in the Team
GB of France : G Cabantous, Rosier and prive driver Sommer in the Team
Team give forfet for Italie

Ecurie France wont start with G Cabantous and Mairesse (forfet in Monaco), but have financial problem and stopt in maart 50 , but Mairesse and G Cabantous drive the car in 1950 now prive (financial help)
End 1950 France sale the team to Mairesse

Grignard go partnership with Pozzi
Chaboud stay with Lutetia

-----

1951 Talbot factory team had financial problem and sale his cars to prive drivers and ENB

Grignard and Chaboud race prive

----

1952 End of F1 (racing with F2 cars)
End of the most teams………..

-==============

Schell, Levegh, Etancelin and Claes (Ecurie Belge) drive a prive car/team , with no help from the factory

Cometti for the industriel Peinetti

Rosier (concession Renault – Clermont Ferrand) drive prive, race never for Ecurie France
He give his 2° car to
Pozzi, Louveau, Schell in 1950,
Louveau and Chiron in 1951,
G Cabantous , Mairesse and Chaboud in 1952

[Oleksij Hrushko]

Found this great thread! I’m deeply interested in history of F1 in 1945-1960 years, especially about small teams, non-major races, not so succesful drivers and so on… (because about Fangio, Farina and others, Championship’s GP there are a lot of material, but about others…). Now I’m “working” under profile of the Ecurie Lutetia. Almost all information from TNF, from this thread, but I have some questions, please, answer, if you can or have some time:

1. In some I-net sources I found, that Ecurie Lutetia got 2 points on GP de l’A.C.F. 1950 (Philippe Etancelin and Eugene Chaboud), but I know that it was car owned by P.Etancelin. What is a truth?

2. GP de l’A.C.F. 1950. Eugene Chaboud – DNS. Was it Ecurie Lutetia entry or Chaboud’s private?

Although I tried to make a list of races, which Ecurie Lutetia entered:

1950
25 June: 24 hours Le-Mans - Charles Pozzi / Pierre Flahaut, Delahaye #8, DSQ; Gaston Serraud / Andre de Guelfi, Delahaye #9, DNF
18 June: Belgium GP – Eugene Chaboud, Talbot-Lago T26C #20, DNF
1949
9 October: Grand Prix du Salon - Pierre Meyrat, Talbot-Lago 90201, 3rd; Charles Pozzi, Delahaye 135, 4th
11 September: Gran Premio d'Italia - Eugène Chaboud, Delahaye, DNF
19 August: Pau Grand Prix - Charles Pozzi, Talbot T26SS, DNF
17 July: Grand Prix de France - Eugène Chaboud, Delahaye 135, 6th
5 June: Pierre Meyrat, Talbot-Lago 90201, 4th
14 May: Grand Prix de Marseille - Eugène Chaboud, Delahaye 135S, 7th (6th heat 1)
1948
19 July: Coupe des Petites Cylindrées - Eugene Chaboud, Kling-Veritas RS – BMW #20, 3rd; Roger Loyer, Veritas RS – BMW #22, DNF

I used 6th-gear list and Quentin’s Cloud site (I have not Sheldon), and can’t make a list of 1948 races, because, according to 6th-gear, Chaboud and Pozzi entered not only for Lutetia, but for othet Ecuries and made private entries… And I’m not sure, that Le-Mans and Belgium GP was only races in 1950…

And what happened after 1950 year with this team?

Please, help!

[Pavel Lifintsev]

I can remember another one race, where Ecurie Lutetia was entered:

1950
10 April: Pau Grand Prix - Charles Pozzi, Talbot-Lago T26C #16, 8th (13th in qualifying)

[VDP]

Eugène Chaboud and Charles Pozzi, were members of Ecurie France Of Paul Vallée, they separated
from Ecurie France after The new car was (Talbot lago Monoplace from 1938 grand prix de l'ACF)
given to Louis Chiron (best driver, with insistance of the wife of Paul Vallée).


robert

[Bjorn Kjer]

This thread is just fantastic. Is there a thread covering the Italian Scuderias in this period ? So far I have found none but some singleton threads. I know there were no Italian championship like the French one in these years , but still some international races !.

[GIGLEUX]

I'm wondering what you can find fantastic in this thread. In nearly all posts there are enormous errors, except the ones of Allesandro. Nearly everything is to be corrected and rewritten...

[Bjorn Kjer]

Hello Jean-Maurice , would you please be kind enough then , to lead to where I can find the informations ?

[GIGLEUX]

You can usefully read:

French magazines such as:
-L'Automobile 1946-1951
-L'Action Automobile et Touristique 1945-1951
-La Vie Automobile 1945-1951
-L'Actualité Automobile 1945-1950
-L'Anthologie Automobile, special issue about the V12 Delahayes
-some issues of Le Fanauto about the Talbot Lagos and V12 Delahayes

Books:
-Les Talbot de course by Pierre Abeillon
-Les Delahaye V12 by François Jolly
-La grande aventure des Delage 3 litres by François Jolly
-Louis Rosier, une vie extraordinaire by Pascal Legrand
-Trintignant-Wimille, un champion et son maître by Maurice Louche

To complete this, you go to the Georges Pompidou Center library, in Paris.. They have the complete collections of the daily newspapers of Paris and L'Equipe.
All of this in french of course.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Hello Jean-Maurice , I asked for it so I got it , sources for "pro" research as I see it . Thanks you very much , it might become a future project if I still got the steam because : I AM ALLREADY IN MY 3RD AGE ,
I DO NOT SPEAK FRENCH , I LIVE IN DANMARK , I HAVE MANY OTHER MOTORRACING "THINGS" GOING ON AT THE MOMENT , AND I AM RATHER UNDERFINANCED FOR FOREIGN PROJECTS !