Grenzlandring (aka Grenzland-Ring)
#1
Posted 28 February 2008 - 16:57
Today I’ve got a copy of "ADAC Motorwelt", 1950 October issue. From that old mag I’ve learned for the first time that the Grenzlandring was at least for the 1950 event clockwise driven. I was always told the races were driven anti-clockwise. Does any of the TNF members know if that happened only in 1950?
#3
Posted 28 February 2008 - 18:44
Originally posted by fines
Wasn't it always run clockwise...?
In GPL it's always clockwise ... here too http://www.silhouet....s/grenzlan.html
#4
Posted 28 February 2008 - 18:49
Originally posted by fines
Wasn't it always run clockwise...?
AFAIK there are only very few (good) pictures available, which can show the direction used. However, in this TNF thread http://forums.autosp...?threadid=73398 the second picture shows the start of the 1952 accident race. As a local can easily see roofs of houses at the village of "Watern" it is no doubt about anti-clockwise. Picture three shows the "Friedhofsbrücke" in the background, no question, anti-clockwise.
#5
Posted 28 February 2008 - 19:07
sorry but no in GPL so as in the map its anti-clockwiseOriginally posted by GeoffE
In GPL it's always clockwise ... here too http://www.silhouet....s/grenzlan.html
#6
Posted 28 February 2008 - 19:11
Originally posted by GeoffE
In GPL it's always clockwise ... here too http://www.silhouet....s/grenzlan.html
Please use your own link. Click on "Click here for another map". If you click on the square in the right below corner you’ll got that map a bit bigger. See the figures 1, 2, 3 till 8 for the marshall posts. No doubt, anti-clockwise.
The 1952 accident is always referred to had happened at the "exit of the Roermonder Kurve". Clockwise would make the spot, which is exactly here http://de.wikipedia....lstelle1952.jpg, to the "entrance of the Roermonder Kurve".
#7
Posted 28 February 2008 - 19:23
Somewhere I have a small book on Grenzlandring written in German and well illustrated.
#8
Posted 28 February 2008 - 19:54
Originally posted by rx-guru
Please use your own link. Click on "Click here for another map". If you click on the square in the right below corner you’ll got that map a bit bigger. See the figures 1, 2, 3 till 8 for the marshall posts. No doubt, anti-clockwise.
For some reason, I said exactly the opposite of what I was intending to say ... profuse apologies
#9
Posted 28 February 2008 - 23:12
Originally posted by Paul Rochdale
In the 1970s I was a soldier based at nearby Moenchengladach and also drove around the circuit. At the time I wrote to Denis Jenkinson to ask about it and he returned my map with the direction of the races as ANTI-CLOCKWISE. He described the pits as being on the inside of the circuit, just before the railway bridge, near Harb. Jenks raced sidecars there in 1950/51/52.
Somewhere I have a small book on Grenzlandring written in German and well illustrated.
Hi Paul, Between 1974 and 1980 I used to work as a driver inside the 37th Rhine Workshops at Mönchengladbach, moving everything from Minis and Escorts across Stalwarts (Amphibious vehicles) up to Rolls Royce engined Thornycrofts and even (but rarely) Centurion tanks. From mid 1980 on my work as a motorsport journalist ensured me enough money to pull out eventually.
So far I did not think about the pits at all as I expected them being very close to the Start/Finish area, that was always situated half-way between the roads going to Tüschenbroich and Uevekoven. So if the pits have been at Harbeck, just before the railway bridge, they must have been about 1 mile away from Start/Finish… I wonder if Jenks raced already in 1950 there as only the 1951 and 1952 Grenzlandring races were officially open to foreigners, AFAIK.
The small book you mention is possibly the one called "Der Grenzlandring 'die Avus' des Westens" by Dietmar Schmitz and Folkmar Pietsch (the long time editor-in-chief of the "Rheinische Post" for the Erkelenz area), or its forerunner "Der Grenzlandring – Die (un-)vergessene Rennstrecke 1948–1952" by Achim Froitzheim. I got a copy of the one done by Schmitz/Pietsch myself, but never saw the one done by Froitzheim. However, the book contains a lot of information, but its layout is really useless and one cannot read it page after page, but must jump forwards and backwards all the time to understand or associate things mentioned.
As I’ve already mentioned in my first post till today I was sure ALL FIVE EVENTS were driven anti-clockwise. But the ADAC mag 1950 race report reads: […] "Die Streckenverhältnisse waren in diesem Jahre so grundsätzlich anderer Natur, daß sie eigentlich überhaupt keine Vergleiche zulassen. Einige Beispiele: Rechtskurs statt Linkskurs (für Räder langsamer, für Wagen schneller)." […] Simple English: The conditions at the circuit were so much different this year that comparissons are actually useless. Some examples: clockwise course instead of anti-clockwise course (for bikes slower, for cars faster). I understand from those words that the 1948 and 1949 races were driven anti-clockwise and in 1950 there was clockwise racing. According to different 1952 pics that year saw also anti-clockwise racing. But what about 1951?
#10
Posted 28 February 2008 - 23:48
Not bad at all, 70 Euros for a 1949 Grenzlandring programme…
#11
Posted 29 February 2008 - 00:19
#12
Posted 29 February 2008 - 01:32
Originally posted by Twin Window
I'm in possession of several original negatives of the aftermath of the infamous accident in 1952, including pics of Helmut Niedermayr in the paddock afterwards looking shocked and carrying some superficial injuries.
Perhaps you got the right stuff… Over here just a few lousy pics available or known, or have better pics never been published? In 1977 I had the private album of "Mister Grenzlandring", Teddy Vorster himself, for some weeks at my home and even he (but actually his widow, a quite famous German actress by the name of Ruth Lommel http://www.cyranos.ch/smlomm-e.htm) had only a few lousy action pics from all the five races.
#13
Posted 29 February 2008 - 04:43
The track was built IIRC as a ring road for a military factory, which would explain the workshops there years later. Too fast for bikes and cars even in the early postwar period.
#14
Posted 29 February 2008 - 09:17
This shows Jenks' markings on my map. Let me transcribe part of his letter -
"The Grenzlandring runs round the village of Wegberg. I think the concrete road system was built during the war and racing took place on it from about 1948-1952. I recall racing there in 1950/51/52. It ended in 1952 when a Veritas sportscar went into the crowd. Racing took place ina lefthand or anti-clockwise direction and the pits and start were in a cutting just before the railway bridge if I remember rightly. I drove round it last year (1971) for old times sake and recognised the start area which I think is where I marked it on your map. In those days Wegberg was a fine old world village and the Ring was way out in the fields; now it is virtually in the town. The racing headquarters was in Rheydt. Early 500cc cars raced there and up to 2 litre sportscars and pre-war BMW and post-war AFM and Veritas cars were the usual runners. In those days Germany was still banned from international racing so ran undfer their own rules and sportscars could run on alcohol fuel so that the streamlined 328 BMW-powered Veritas was very fast. I seem to recall Tony Ulmen making a lap record at 128mph. Other drivers I recall were Reiss, Lang, Helfrich, Kling, Klenk, but I don't recall other drivers other than Germans or amateurs from neighbouring belgium and Holland. The road was always narrow and tree lined, in fact it is all exactly as I remeber from 1952 when I last raced there, part from the encroaching houses at certain points. I assume you appreciate the name Grenzlandring? "Frontier, country, circuit" translated literally."
During the 1970s I was a LCpl draughtsman (Royal Engineers) attached to 79 Railway Squadron RCT at 17 Base Vehicle Depot and returned there during the 1990s. Not a lot had changed with the exception of Moenchengladbach. The main street had altered drastically and the main railway station had a lot of grafitti on it's walls, something, I was told, to do with the large influx of out-of-work immigrants.
#15
Posted 29 February 2008 - 10:24
Apropos: On the right hand side of the point of that left arrow done by Jenks one can see inside the ring a little pond. Right below that pond is the spot of the 1952 accident.
#16
Posted 29 February 2008 - 11:13
I have an old programm (would have to check the year) and somebody had put also some newspaper-articles in there... all in german...
in case you're interested in copies or so, shoot me a mail to just.sportscars@web.de
will be glad to help yr. research!
#17
Posted 29 February 2008 - 12:41
Heard stories (from a then resident of the RAF Officers' Mess) of getting in cars at end of the evening and driving round what was known to them as "the Wegberg Ring". Co-incidently, I am shortly to contact the individual concerned in Kent.
The Grensland Rally was across the border in Belgium (and a round of the Belgian National championship up to mid 80s at least).
#18
Posted 29 February 2008 - 13:07
Originally posted by just.sportscars
rx-guru:
I have an old programm (would have to check the year) and somebody had put also some newspaper-articles in there... all in german...
in case you're interested in copies or so, shoot me a mail to just.sportscars@web.de
will be glad to help yr. research!
Old Grenzlandring progs making lotsamoney these days, as one can see following the above eBay link…
PM to follow later, thanx!
#19
Posted 29 February 2008 - 16:33
One thing is IMO absolutely incomprehensible: Neither the town of Wegberg nor any authority, involved club etc. has ever planned to set up a memorial stone or plaque for the 13 (recorded) or 14 (claimed) fatalities…
#21
Posted 01 March 2008 - 11:44
Originally posted by GeoffE
For some reason, I said exactly the opposite of what I was intending to say ... profuse apologies
I believe most of us can admit making this mistake at least once. In my case it has been done numerous times.
Henry
#22
Posted 01 March 2008 - 14:49
Yes, one of the five race meetings at the Grenzlandring was run clockwise, but it was the 1949 edition!
Here's another report from 1950, Automobil-Revue 10/1950 - it clearly states "diesmal gegen den Uhrzeigersinn befahren" (= "this time run anti-clockwise"), and the pictures speak for themselves:
Unfortunately I cannot post a picture from 1949 that gives clear evidence (but there are some ...). The following newspaper article (Aachener Nachrichten 06.09.1949) is only a preview, of course, but it corresponds with those other sources, so it might be enough here: "Der Ring wird diesmal - im Gegensatz zum vorigen Jahr - in der Uhrzeigerrichtung befahren werden." (= "in contrast to the previous year, this time the track will be used in clockwise-direction")
Greetings from Cologne!
#23
Posted 01 March 2008 - 15:23
#25
Posted 02 March 2008 - 10:25
One important question remains: If four events were driven anti-clockwise and only the one of 1949 clockwise how much value has the Grenzlandring all-time lap record of Schorsch Meier (BMW 500 Kompressor), 216km/h or 134mph, set in 1949…?
#26
Posted 03 March 2008 - 14:55
One of my fav circuits !!