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Started by Nanni Dietrich , Jan 20 2005 11:19

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#1 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 11:19

Reading some recent topics about Beuttler (boytler or bewtler :confused: ), about Schumacher (shù-maker or shoomà-ker), about Pukekohe (pook-e-k-hee or pew-kee-kew :D ), I think someone of you can help us not-english (or german, or dutch, or...)-language TNF, to pronounce correctly some motorsport names.
Anyway I can help you to pronounce italian names ;)

For example I don't know how I can pronounce correctly some names like those:

DONOHUE
MOTSCHEMBACHER
LAUSITZRING
De BRUYNSERAEDE
STAEPELAERE
DJURSLANDRING
EGOZKUE
WALDEGAARD
HOLOWCZYC
PALHARES
POSTLETHWAITE

...

Thanks. :lol:

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#2 ian senior

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 11:30

I could do with help with some of these!

A couple of easy ones.

Donohue is don - o - hew.

Postlethwaite is poss - elth - wait. The "th" bit is pronounced softly, as in "thing" and not hard as in "the".

#3 humphries

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 11:37

I believe that to the English ear Zehender sounds like Zondaire.

John

#4 Stephen W

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 11:47

To my uncultured Northern lug-hole I always thought they went like this:

Donohue = Dona-hew

Motschembacher = Mot-schum-backer

Lausitzring = Low-sits-ring (where the ow is pronounced as if you had banged your elbow)

Waldegaard = Val-de-guard

Postlethwaite = Possle-th-wait (agreed the th is a soft th as in thing)

:rolleyes:

#5 ian senior

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 12:04

Originally posted by Stephen W
To my uncultured Northern lug-hole I always thought they went like this:

Donohue = Dona-hew

Motschembacher = Mot-schum-backer

Lausitzring = Low-sits-ring (where the ow is pronounced as if you had banged your elbow)

Waldegaard = Val-de-guard

Postlethwaite = Possle-th-wait (agreed the th is a soft th as in thing)

:rolleyes:


Is this the right room for an argument?

I think "Donohue" varies a bit. I was trying to achieve an American style pronunciation. Us from up t'North in the UK would probably go for the Donna - hew version. This is confirmed by a mate of mine (from Liverpool!) who pronounces her surname in this way, although to confuse the issue she spells it "Donoghue"!

#6 René de Boer

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 12:07

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich
...
De BRUYNSERAEDE
...


A mistake often made, especially on Dutch websites. Belgian Roland Bruynseraede, former F1 race-director and now race-director of the DTM, is called "Bruynseraede", without "de".

#7 Darren Galpin

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 12:19

Lausitzring - It's Low (as in Ow! That hurt, and How)-sits-ring. The AU sound in German is not the same as in French - Stephen W has used more of a French pronounciation.

#8 petefenelon

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 12:19

Palhares was as far as I remember pronounced Pal-HAR-ess.

#9 David McKinney

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 12:23

I've often wished we could all learn international phonetic spelling, so I could write how some English name is pronounced, and a Frenchman or a German or a Russian would know exactly what I meant.
In the absence of that, we should at least get the terms we use right :cool:
The 'th' in "thing" is hard; the 'th' in "the" is soft;)

#10 Jonas

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 13:00

Originally posted by Stephen W
Waldegaard = Val-de-guard

Well, in swedish Waldegård is pronounced more like Val-de-goord..

#11 ian senior

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 13:03

How about Kjallstrom? Is that shell - strom?

#12 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 13:27

:up:

There was in the 70s two drivers (someone of yoy can remember...) that partecipated the World Rally Championship for Lancia, two of the worse italian names to pronounce: Mauro Pregliasco-Angelo Garzoglio :eek: :D In Italy we pronounce "gli" very similar to spanish double-L (as in Sevilla), so you can pronounce pre-"lla"-sco and garzo-"llo".
Other strange italian names:
Calascibetta (do you remember the Targa?;) ) pronounce cala-schi (like in Schiller)-betta
Badoer, with the o and the e separated, as in Citroen
Ravaglia (spanish "lla" as Pregliasco): ra-va-"lla"



I have often problems with pronounciation of some belgian surnames like Staepelaere, Varnaeve, Coelebunders, Raedermaeker, Snijers... and... Bourgoignie (I thin bur-guà-gnee :confused: )

#13 Wolf

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 13:39

A couple of points...

Shouldn't Lausitzring be Lou (as in 'loud') - zic - ring ?

I believe correct pronounciation of 'Kj' in Kjallstrom should be soft sound very similar to one made by saying t (as in what) and y (as in you) close together several times (fast) until they blur together... In Croatian (and similar languages) that sound is represented by letter ć. If all else fails, I think the most acceptabe substitution would be pronouncing 'ch', as in 'cheese', but 'softening' it a bit...

And I think those pronounciations of German 'ch' are misinterpreted here- it's definitely nowhere near 'k' that is oft used here: sole 'h' in german is used to lengthen preceeding vowel, and 'c' in front (merely) indicates that 'h' is pronounced. So, 'ch' following the vowel is pronounced simple h, as in house*- although in some parts of Germany it's pronounced 'sh', as in shoe.

* although, one could say it sometimes has 'hollower' sound (one should, I think, raise the base/back end of the tongue a bit while producing the sound h)...

#14 Wolf

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 13:51

In line of my previous post, MOTSCHEMBACHER= MO-CH(chip)EM(hem)-BAH(bahamas)-er (her)

#15 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 14:49

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich
HOLOWCZYC

Thanks. :lol:


Hoe- low (as in opposite to high)-chick, I believe, but others might go hollow-chick. Speaking as someone who's sister is now married to a Pole, one has to learn how to pronounce this names sharpish! :lol:

#16 WINO

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 15:15

It is MotscheNbacher. His former wife is still advertising CanAm video tapes.

WINO

#17 Racer.Demon

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 15:31

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich
I have often problems with pronounciation of some belgian surnames like Staepelaere, Varnaeve, Coelebunders, Raedermaeker, Snijers... and... Bourgoignie (I thin bur-guà-gnee :confused: )


Spot-on with the last one, but there is trouble afoot rewriting 'ae' (or 'aa' in Dutch), 'ij' (as in my name), 'uy' ('ui' in Dutch), 'sch', 'eeuw' or 'ieuw' in English phonetics, as English (or any other European language) simply doesn't have these sounds...

Trying to come close:

- aa/ae - prolonged 'ah'
- ij - somewhere between 'ay' and 'eye' ('ij' is in fact one letter which on the keyboard and in print is represented by an i and j - the capital letter is IJ instead of Ij)
- ui/uy/uij - somewhere between 'ah' and 'ow' (as in 'owl')
- sch - s with the Spanish j but rougher (as in Juan, as long as it isn't pronounced 'huan' the English way)
- eeuw - 'ay-w'
- ieuw - 'ee-w'

#18 WINO

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 16:04

And then there is the well known name Vanden Plas, which in car speak comes down to how an Englishman would pronounce the French pronounciation of a Dutch last name.

WINO

#19 Bonde

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 16:14

Djurslandring is actually called Ring Djursland in Danish:

reng jew'rs-land (or reng djoors-land)

whereas Jyllandsringen is called exactly that:

Jül-ansreng'n

In Danish 'y' is pronounced like 'u' in French or ü in German, and in these cases the r is sharp when in front of a vowel, like in French or German, not rolled on the tongue like in Bavarian or Italian.

Roskilde Ring was:

raws-keel'eh reng with a short 'aw' as in a short 'awe' in English.

Padborg Park is:

path-borh parkh or path-bawr pargh

where the d is a short, soft 'th' sound like in 'them', and the r softer like in English as it is preceded by a vowel and followed by a consonant. The 'a' in park is round as in 'ah', whereas in all the other cases it flat like in 'America'.

Clear as ink?

Danish is difficult to learn to pronounce because there's often very little connection between the way words are spelled and how they are pronounced - and we tend to be very sloppy in our pronunciation, truncating endings and softening consonants.

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#20 ensign14

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 17:45

Originally posted by David McKinney

The 'th' in "thing" is hard; the 'th' in "the" is soft;)

I'd say the "th" in "thing" is voiceless, that in "the" is voiced.

The Icelanders have these correct, they have separate letters for them (as did English once upon a time). Why not? They are separate phonetic sounds.

Originally posted by Bonde

Danish is difficult to learn to pronounce because there's often very little connection between the way words are spelled and how they are pronounced - and we tend to be very sloppy in our pronunciation, truncating endings and softening consonants.


Have you ever seen Irish? Their spellings fossilized very early on (10th century or so) and as pronounciations have changed things like Laoghaire are pronounced "leery". English from that era is a totally different-looking language...check out Beowulf...

#21 petefenelon

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 17:48

Let's just hope nobody mentions Buddy Featherstonehaugh here.;)

#22 WINO

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 21:38

I still chuckle when I think about the British TV commentator getting all excited about REne ARnoux in his REnault.


WINO

#23 fines

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 21:56

I'll concentrate on the German names here, although I think I'd get the Italian ones alright (except for "de Adamich", anyone?) :

German "ch" always causes confusion, because it actually represents two very different sounds, the name "Michael Schumacher" being a very good example: the "ch" in "Michael" is very close to the "sch" in "Schumacher", and thus like English "sh" - you just put your tongue closer to the teeth. The "ch" in "Schumacher" (and "Motschenbacher") is like Spanish "ge" or "gi" as in "Gerona" or Latinamerican "x" as in "Mexico".

"Lausitzring" is "Lau" as in "How (are you?)", "sitz" as in "fits (nicely, thank you)", although "z" is usually pronounced "ts", here it is a voiced "s" (usually written "ß" in German), and "ring" is like "Nürburgring" (joke!) - well, like "sing (that song)", with the "r" differing according to region.

#24 Rob G

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 00:21

Originally posted by David McKinney
In the absence of that, we should at least get the terms we use right :cool:
The 'th' in "thing" is hard; the 'th' in "the" is soft;)

The other way round, David. :)

#25 Rob G

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 00:24

Originally posted by ian senior
I think "Donohue" varies a bit. I was trying to achieve an American style pronunciation. Us from up t'North in the UK would probably go for the Donna - hew version.

I'm American and pronounce it "Donna-hew" as well.

#26 David Hyland

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 04:09

Originally posted by petefenelon
Let's just hope nobody mentions Buddy Featherstonehaugh here.;)

You mean, like TonyKaye did in post #1 of this thread? He also gets a mention in post #88 (and subsequently) in the Daft names in motorsport thread.

And here's another thread about pronunciation.

Time for Twinny to get out his merging stick?

David.

#27 David McKinney

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 06:12

Originally posted by Rob G

The other way round, David. :)

The point of my posting was to correct earlier ones, Rob
You're not helping :)

#28 Mickey

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 09:11

Originally posted by fines
I'll concentrate on the German names here, although I think I'd get the Italian ones alright (except for "de Adamich", anyone?)


Adamich is a mix of adam and mitch...

My favourite is how Giacomelli became Jack O'Malley :lol:

#29 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 09:45

Originally posted by petefenelon
Let's just hope nobody mentions Buddy Featherstonehaugh here.;)


:lol: ... and also Kees Kroesemeijers, Fritz Kreutzpointner or Tony Birchennhough...

#30 Patrice L'Rodent

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 09:54

Quote Petefenelon................."Let's just hope nobody mentions Buddy Featherstonehaugh here".

Is he any relation of Cholmondely Featherstonehaugh?
I think his cousin was Chumley Fanshaw?? ;)
PDR

#31 lustigson

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 10:00

Originally posted by René de Boer
A mistake often made, especially on Dutch websites. Belgian Roland Bruynseraede, former F1 race-director and now race-director of the DTM, is called "Bruynseraede", without "de".

Same goes for Luca Montezemolo, IIRC. I once read an interview in which he said his name isn't "Di Montezemolo", but just the latter.

#32 Disco Stu

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 14:45

Originally posted by fines here it is a voiced "s" (usually written "ß" in German)


How exactly is that ß thing pronounced? And why the heck does it look like a B? :drunk:

#33 Gary Davies

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 15:04

Originally posted by Disco Stu


How exactly is that ß thing pronounced? And why the heck does it look like a B? :drunk:


Double s. As in crass. :cool:

#34 ensign14

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 15:17

Originally posted by Disco Stu


How exactly is that ß thing pronounced? And why the heck does it look like a B? :drunk:

The ß is a scribal ligature of an s on top of another s. Like in some old printed English books you have things like ft taking up the space of a single letter. And the old English habit of having the s look a bit like an f; which is problematic if you see the word "succour".

#35 petefenelon

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 15:23

Originally posted by David Hyland
You mean, like TonyKaye did in post #1 of this thread? He also gets a mention in post #88 (and subsequently) in the Daft names in motorsport thread.

And here's another thread about pronunciation.

Time for Twinny to get out his merging pen?

David.


Actually, Buddy Featherstonehaugh also turned up (en passant) in a thread about racing writers -- Richard Williams (who as well as being a superb sports writer is also an accomplished music journo) managed to mention Buddy and Johnny Claes in a review of a jazz biography!;)

#36 jgm

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 16:33

What about Ferenc Szisz?

#37 Rob G

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 18:26

Originally posted by David McKinney

The point of my posting was to correct earlier ones, Rob
You're not helping :)

Oops, sorry. :blush:

#38 Bob Riebe

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 19:06

I find this interesting, especially with the dialect or regional differences.

The Motschenbacher and Schumacher pronunciatons I find fascinating how pronunciations are approached.

Depending on what German speaking, current, or past in the US, area one is from, all can be, both, right and wrong.

What is interesting with Lothar's last name, (Low-tar) is the tsch, in the Cyrillic(russian) alphabet, it is one letter, thus avoing getting it wrong.
Bacher is German for Baker, with a short a and soft-hard ch( or k), kind of like khh, only more breathy (baakhher).

I grew up with a Shumacher (shoemaker, literally) and they used the German pronunciation, Shu as in Shoe, and ma, as in my ma, plus the good old-khher or Shoe-ma-khher.

As a German instructor I once had, who was German said; if I go to German speaking Switzerland, I can read their newspapers, but can understand damn little of what they say.

My parents both spoke German, not to us kids though, but one spoke high German and the other spoke Low German, so they never spoke German to each other.

Interesting Language.

Bob

#39 WINO

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 19:25

Try the American pronounciation of SCCA racer Bill Wuesthoff!

WINO

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#40 Simpson RX1

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 21:26

Originally posted by ensign14

Have you ever seen Irish? Their spellings fossilized very early on (10th century or so) and as pronounciations have changed things like Laoghaire are pronounced "leery". English from that era is a totally different-looking language...check out Beowulf...




We English can be just as good at this............nothing to do with Motorsport (unless you count the fact it's not far from Brands) have a stab at Kent village Trottiscliffe.........

#41 fines

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 21:27

Well, actually "ß" is a ligature of "s" and "z" and is pronounced like a single English "s", while the single German "s" is pronounced like the English "z"; the German "z" meanwhile... :smoking:

#42 ensign14

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 22:35

Originally posted by Simpson RX1

We English can be just as good at this............nothing to do with Motorsport (unless you count the fact it's not far from Brands) have a stab at Kent village Trottiscliffe.........

Well, on motorsport look at Towcester. I sometimes wonder whether place names like Wymondham and Oxbridge names like Magdalene were made up as a secret joke on American tourists... :smoking:

#43 gdecarli

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 00:59

Originally posted by jgm
What about Ferenc Szisz?

I was explained some few Hungarian rules and I recall that SZ in Hungarian has a single sound. I'm not sure, but IIRC it should be like an 'S'.
And IIRC final 'C' should be more similar to a 'Z'.
All other letters should be the same as in Italian and in English (E should be like 'end' and 'I' like 'it').

So I would bet that FERENC SZIZS would be FERENZ SIS, but of course I can't confirm this!

Anyone can speak Hungarian and confirm this?

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich
Badoer, with the o and the e separated, as in Citroen

This is very interesting, because sometimes it is pronounced Bàdoer and sometimes Badoèr. I have never heard any Badòer. In Italian we write accents only when they are on the last letter (città, cioè, più, ...), so in all other cases it's not possible to know what is the correct pronounce.

Mostly he is called Bàdoer, but as he is from Venice, I think the right pronounce is Badoèr, with an open E, like in the English 'END'.

Ciao,
Guido

(very interesting thread, but also very difficult to write!)

#44 gdecarli

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 01:07

Originally posted by petefenelon
Palhares was as far as I remember pronounced Pal-HAR-ess.

Again, I can't speak Portuguese and/or Brazilian, but I think that LH in Portuguese and/or Brazilian is like LL in Spanish and GL in Italian.

So I would write PALLARES in Spanish and PAGLIARES in Italian.

Likewise, I think NH in Portuguese and/or Brazilian is like Ñ in Spanish and GN in Italian. So Pinherinho (a corner at Interlagos) would be Piñeriño in Spanish or Pignerigno in Italian.

Don't ask me how to pronounce these sounds in English: this is too difficult for me!

Ciao,
Guido

#45 Bob Riebe

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 04:41

Americans and basic Italian is funny but very annoying when one pronounces it correctly and they start correcting you because they say it wrong.

The-chi- or key, and ci or chee, plus gli or yee (there is a phonetic alphabet, one of these day I will down load it) should be required to be learned in every US high school.

Bob

#46 bretonbanquet

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 17:10

Originally posted by gdecarli
Again, I can't speak Portuguese and/or Brazilian, but I think that LH in Portuguese and/or Brazilian is like LL in Spanish and GL in Italian.

So I would write PALLARES in Spanish and PAGLIARES in Italian.

Likewise, I think NH in Portuguese and/or Brazilian is like Ñ in Spanish and GN in Italian. So Pinherinho (a corner at Interlagos) would be Piñeriño in Spanish or Pignerigno in Italian.

Don't ask me how to pronounce these sounds in English: this is too difficult for me!


Yes, this is pretty much correct. In English try a Portuguese LH as the LLI of 'MILLION', so Palhares would be something like 'PAL-YAR-ES' and likewise Pinherinho as 'PIN-YER-EEN-YO'.

The phonetic alphabet is very useful for all these pronunciation problems, but not all the characters are easily found on a keyboard, such as theta, the 'th' of THING - and thorn , the 'th' of THE. Theta is written like the Greek letter, and thorn is written like this: ð, so the English word THAT is phonetically written ðæt. The problem with the phonetic alphabet, as you can see, is that unless you know your stuff, these funny characters, particularly the fricatives, are unpronounceable :confused:

#47 David McKinney

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 18:00

There is a partial solution to the keyboard character problem: there is an ASCII phonetic alphabet, which seems a perfectly usable alternative - though only for English. No help with sounds used by other languages. :down:

#48 WDH74

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 21:46

A friend of mine in college had the last name Donohue, and pronounced it "Don-o-hue". With my thoroughly midwestern accent I go with "Donna-hue", with a really long A sound, as befits a Chicago area resident (sounds like "Dahna-hue"). It really depends on whether or not my Chicago accent is turned up that day. (Don't get me started on trying to decipher Chicago accents. "C'mere! Dabodayouse!")

And I've got two more-how d'you pronounce "Mosport", as in the race track? I've been led to believe it's either "Moss-port" or "Moe-sport", the former pronounced like Sir Stirling's last name and the latter like Moe Howard. And Mont Tremblant ("Mon Trem-blan"?)?

-William

#49 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 24 January 2005 - 08:28

Originally posted by Bob Riebe


What is interesting with Lothar's last name, (Low-tar) is the tsch, in the Cyrillic(russian) alphabet, it is one letter, thus avoing getting it wrong.


And what about Manfred von Brauchitsch :drunk: ... and Goetz von Tschirnhaus ?

I try: Manfred fon Broi-hi-ch... :confused:

:D

#50 275 GTB-4

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Posted 24 January 2005 - 08:44

Originally posted by petefenelon
Let's just hope nobody mentions Buddy Featherstonehaugh here.;)


Fanshaw ya mean guv?? :wave:
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