3993 replies to this topic

[Rinehart]

I shall explain the whining;

They said they would be competitive from the first year

 

I'll define "competitive" as "winning". 

 

Possibly you will be able to prove me wrong with some misquote, speculation or slip of the tongue, but the main thrust of McLaren-Hondas official "expectation management" has been that this is a long term plan, they are starting at the foot of a mountain and they would be back to winning again (and by inference within 3 years since they say they will do it with Fernando who is on a 3 year deal without options) and the plan is to eventually dominate. Certainly all of the launch noises (when they revealed Fernando and JB) was very consistent with this. They have certainly NOT been promising they would turn up competitive - absolutely not. They have subsequently said that they are further behind at this stage than they'd hoped, but that does NOT change their goal, which is success at the end of the journey, per the outlined timetable. 

 

I believe your expectations are not in line with McLaren Honda's stated objectives. Hence your disappointment. 

Edited by Rinehart, 11 May 2015 - 15:19.

[Alonsofan007]

yes it has to do with ERS-braking which harvests braking energy. It is automatic they've set a threshold for rear-light flash according to

 

same as autosport article

 

"‘Lift and coast’

If the torque management system on the car decides to go into a fuel-save mode, the rear light will flash for a second to warn any driver behind. The thresholds are configurable but currently set for a car above 95 per cent throttle for more than a second, travelling faster than 180kph, that experiences a torque reduction of 120kW or more.

The warning system has been created because these events are controlled by the electronics rather than by the driver. If the driver decides to back off early then the situation is as it always has been. He has a responsibility to ensure another car is not close behind him. It’s as simple as that. One would normally expect the driver to check that it’s OK to back off. The warning light is there for situations not controlled by the driver."

[kosmos]

http://www.marca.com...1431353259.html (Spanish)

 

Summary? Alonso is all optimism and don't rules out a podium or even a win (with a bit of luck). A lot of upgrades planned for the whole season. Car is not giving reliability problems anymore and there's a lot of performance yet to take from it.

 

 

He also confirmed the Honda guys have a different way to approach the work load than Europeans, basically confirmed the rumours of Honda working slow, with no rush and making all kind of checks.

 

A lot of engineers coming from other teams lately, lot of stuff cooking on Woking but time is needed, parts will come in monaco, june, september... basically what Bullier said, constant updates.

[TakataDomeNSX]

The truth is always constructive, and to reach the truth everybody input or opinion is valuable.

whether it's ''whining'' or blind optimism...

I assure you the team in no way benefits by a bunch of outsiders commenting that they are behind, are woeful, disgraceful, disgusting or otherwise behind expectation. They will push themselves to get there regardless of what you or I or Rasputin says.

 

I assure you neither Button or Alonso will be more or less motivated or closer to quitting because we say so.

 

So therefore our version of the "truth" which is at best a guess is not helpful whatsoever, especially if it is negative.

Edited by TakataDomeNSX, 11 May 2015 - 15:42.

[charly0418]

 

I'm not a fan, just lurking here, but really don't understand all the drama in this topic. McLaren is exactly in a place where they should be at this point. Anything else would have been a miracle.

 

Last year they had by far the best engine and they were still 1.5 - 2 sec behind Merc, finishing 5th and barely beating Force India.

It could be expected that the Honda engine won't be as powerful as the Mercedes, so to have McLaren on the front, they should have improved like 3 seconds from only aero. Not in absolute values. But relative to the others who are also developing... So we are talking about like 4+ seconds to gain only from chassis. This is extremely unrealistic.

Considering this, they are pretty much where they could be expected. Last year they were like 1.5 sec behind, now it increased to 2.5 with the weaker engine.

 

I'm not saying they won't recover, but it will take time. Not some races, but rather some years. Doesn't matter what Ron is fantasizing.

It took 4-5 years for Ferrari before they started dominating. Same for Red Bull. Same for Mercedes. It takes time.

Also this is still the best case scenario, because there is no guarantee that they will even succeed.... Honda, Toyota and Bmw all spent years and lots of money and still stuck in midfield.

 

All I wanted to say, that no need for the drama at this point and expect miracles during the following races. You can pretty much chill and relax in this season, check back in 2016 and then hope for a better 2017. McLaren might be at the top by that time. Can't see it happening sooner.

 

Sorry for the reality check.

 

 

yeah this is quite the thread. It has gone from fans predicting wins and a new era of F1 at the end of 2014 to hoping for points in a race, all in a time frame of 6/7 months. 

[krumpli12]

yeah this is quite the thread. It has gone from fans predicting wins and a new era of F1 at the end of 2014 to hoping for points in a race, all in a time frame of 6/7 months. 

 

Nothing special about this, people are adaptable, that ability is our most successful trait. It would be idiotic to think McL will win a race this year at this point, wouldn't it be?

[Petroltorque]

I have a sneaking suspiscion that Macca's Achilles heel might not be the PU. before anyone tears their hair out. I know that Honda have struggled but they seem to be getting on top of their problems. My fear is that if Prodromou has delivered a RB11 facscimile, there might be some inherent probs with tha design philosophy.

[charly0418]

 It would be idiotic to think McL will win a race this year at this point, wouldn't it be?

 

I dont even know anymore

[ERICTOPF1]

I have a sneaking suspiscion that Macca's Achilles heel might not be the PU. before anyone tears their hair out. I know that Honda have struggled but they seem to be getting on top of their problems. My fear is that if Prodromou has delivered a RB11 facscimile, there might be some inherent probs with tha design philosophy.

 

I don't think MP4-30 is a Prodromou creation. He came in September.

 

But its evolution through out the year will be, so will see how it will develop untill MP4-31 arrives

[aditya-now]

At first, we should finally stop taking Buttons first part of the race as the status of McLarens speed performance.

He obviously had a software glitch or whatever. And he said that after half the race it was better. This could occur to any team, you can measure reliability but not performance with such things.

 

Instead, go to this site and compare the times with the close competitors in the "race history": http://macofan.com/e...p=940&hid=22_14

 

You'll see that that Alonso was reasonably quick on his few laps on the hard tyre, and Jenson was also therabout with the mediums, compared to TR, Kvyat and Lotus.

Difficult thing is to take into account whether those have been in free air or not, but it can be seen easily in the linked chart.

You can also see that Sainz lost around 21s in his first pitstop, and McLaren lost around 24s. Awful.

 

P10 would have been difficult for Alo, but for sure not impossible, given that he could have minimized the stint on the unloved hards since he had done 21 Laps with the heavy car on mediums.

 

Thanks, Firstwatt, for the link to macofan.com - the race history graphs are priceless. Great this info and the various functionalities exist for us fans.

 

[AustinF1]

 
Thank you, I was looking for a place to mention this (and didn't dare to resurrect the Alonso accident thread), so this is a good place. Because I am just as dumbfounded as you to read this, after we have been assured in the most certain terms that anyone who thinks that the cars would be affected by wind is a complete tool:
 

 

Edit: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/118848

Sorry if already posted...Button:

 

"The rear felt like it wasn't connected to the front. It felt like every gust of wind had a massive snap."

 

[Christophe77]

I'm not a fan, just lurking here, but really don't understand all the drama in this topic. McLaren is exactly in a place where they should be at this point. Anything else would have been a miracle.

Last year they had by far the best engine and they were still 1.5 - 2 sec behind Merc, finishing 5th and barely beating Force India.
It could be expected that the Honda engine won't be as powerful as the Mercedes, so to have McLaren on the front, they should have improved like 3 seconds from only aero. Not in absolute values. But relative to the others who are also developing... So we are talking about like 4+ seconds to gain only from chassis. This is extremely unrealistic.
Considering this, they are pretty much where they could be expected. Last year they were like 1.5 sec behind, now it increased to 2.5 with the weaker engine.

I'm not saying they won't recover, but it will take time. Not some races, but rather some years. Doesn't matter what Ron is fantasizing.
It took 4-5 years for Ferrari before they started dominating. Same for Red Bull. Same for Mercedes. It takes time.
Also this is still the best case scenario, because there is no guarantee that they will even succeed.... Honda, Toyota and Bmw all spent years and lots of money and still stuck in midfield.

All I wanted to say, that no need for the drama at this point and expect miracles during the following races. You can pretty much chill and relax in this season, check back in 2016 and then hope for a better 2017. McLaren might be at the top by that time. Can't see it happening sooner.

Sorry for the reality check.

I think that's about right... Wise but somewhat depressing words. I used to be a big mercedes fan, followed their entry through Sauber in 1993. Then the combination of McLaren and mercedes and after the split I really couldn't decide, more Leaning towards McLaren actually. But now I'm strongly doubting again. Oh well, could be worse. Spoilt for choice 😀

[bogi]

[Kyo]

My 2 cents are that McLaren aero has not a lot of downforce but a great ratio between downforce and drag (like last years Williams), but since the Honda PU is still underdeveloped the races McLaren should do great because their aero they don't because their PU and the races less dependent of a good PU they also don't do great because their aero.

[Alonsofan007]

here is omnicorse article about honda's troubles http://www.omnicorse...a-125-mila-giri

 higher engine note is due high rpm they are able to achieve in the turbine and  is responsible for high-temps. translation is not perfect, but i think they are saying its still centrifugal compressor but of smaller size not axial as some suggested. Because its smaller they are also having turbo-lag issues.

[Skizo]

here is omnicorse article about honda's troubles http://www.omnicorse...a-125-mila-giri

 higher engine note is due high rpm they are able to achieve in the turbine and  is responsible for high-temps. translation is not perfect, but i think they are saying its still centrifugal compressor but of smaller size not axial as some suggested. Because its smaller they are also having turbo-lag issues.

I tought the smaller turbo have less lag,and less power.With big turbo there is lagg,but they have ERS to fill the gap.

[AustinF1]

Alonso would have got hung by the media and many posters on here for saying what Jenson said.

Yep. On one hand we have Fred saying they were looking at potentially P9 or 10 for this race. Jense, meanwhile, apparently had an issue during the race that wasn't there all weekend, but he's ready to call it a season on the points chase.

 

Wow.

[aditya-now]

Sorry if already posted...Button:

 

Quote

"The rear felt like it wasn't connected to the front. It felt like every gust of wind had a massive snap."

 

You (respectively Button) are talking about this Sunday?

 

His snapping rear of the car felt like "gusts of wind"? Didn't I hear that term somewhere before, in connection with a McLaren-Honda? Sorry if I misunderstood.

[aditya-now]

Yep. On one hand we have Fred saying they were looking at potentially P9 or 10 for this race. Jense, meanwhile, apparently had an issue during the race that wasn't there all weekend, but he's ready to call it a season on the points chase.

 

Wow.

 

If the failure/malfunction were to appear so mysteriously and unexplainably that he doesn't see hope they could correct it until the end of the season? A snapping rear. Was is not just engine mapping? Did they find the reason?

 

What was it, that Jenson did not want to say in connection with Fernando's crash in winter testing that he saw on the data sheet?

[Alonsofan007]

I tought the smaller turbo have less lag,and less power.With big turbo there is lagg,but they have ERS to fill the gap.

i have to add thats what the article says is the reason, but turbo is not small, compressor is. yes they use MGU-H to spool up the turbo, but again they are not running MGU-H at full potential either so may be its not enough.

[AustinF1]

You (respectively Button) are talking about this Sunday?

 

His snapping rear of the car felt like "gusts of wind"? Didn't I hear that term somewhere before, in connection with a McLaren-Honda? Sorry if I misunderstood.

Yep. It's a quote from after the race in Spain.

 

http://www.eurosport...387/story.shtml

Edited by AustinF1, 11 May 2015 - 18:20.

[topical]

Man, it's hard to stay positive... 5 races in, 0 points. I had my hopes set on Barcelona to at least get some points...

And why were there no visible upgrades on the car? Wasn't Boulier speaking of a major upgrade? Other teams had visible upgrades (RB, Ferrari)... 

 

Yeah, and the Ferrari upgrades left them further from Mercedes than they were before. I expect that softened the bitter pill for Alonso yesterday - not so much has changed at his old team after all...

[aditya-now]

Yep. It's a quote from after the race in Spain.

 

http://www.eurosport...387/story.shtml

 

Then I must repeat, Jenson already hinted in February that there was something in the data sheet in connection with Fernando's crash in winter testing that he saw. Only he was not ready to give away what it was that he saw.

 

If these irregularities that occurred till around lap 30 were in any way related I can well imagine why Jenson said "The first 30 laps were not boring -- they were the scariest 30 laps of my life."

 

I wonder how Alonso feels about this but he is a samurai

[Requiem84]

Laughing stock and biggest top team embarassment in years. Last two years were horrid, but what Mclaren and Honda brought to the table has made me lose complete faith in the so called brilliant engineering capabilities of Mclaren (and Honda for that matter).

The Mclaren is already faster than the TR and RB's by a large margin, yet they are nowhere.

Time for some shareholders to press Ron and get someone capable in charge.

[realracer200]

i have to add thats what the article says is the reason, but turbo is not small, compressor is. yes they use MGU-H to spool up the turbo, but again they are not running MGU-H at full potential either so may be its not enough.

and more specificaly the article says the problems is with the bearings of the MGU-H. btw thanks for posting the article.

[Guizotia]

Jenson already is calm...
Jenson Button ‏@JensonButton 3 min3 perccel ezelőtt
Frustrating race yesterday, as I showed in my post-race interviews(!)

,but progress is definitely being made.

#BelieveInMcLaren

#JB22

Oh my gosh even the team are doing the whole "faith" thing now... Hard times!

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

I tought the smaller turbo have less lag,and less power.With big turbo there is lagg,but they have ERS to fill the gap.

As far as I know electric motor fills the gap, so there is no turbo lag in these power units.

Edited by RYARLE, 11 May 2015 - 19:32.

[KingTiger]

You (respectively Button) are talking about this Sunday?

 

His snapping rear of the car felt like "gusts of wind"? Didn't I hear that term somewhere before, in connection with a McLaren-Honda? Sorry if I misunderstood.

 

No, what he's saying is that every actual gust of wind that occured unsettled the car. 

[AustinF1]

No, what he's saying is that every actual gust of wind that occured unsettled the car. 

Yes, this is how I read it too.

[mclarensmps]

Laughing stock and biggest top team embarassment in years. Last two years were horrid, but what Mclaren and Honda brought to the table has made me lose complete faith in the so called brilliant engineering capabilities of Mclaren (and Honda for that matter).

The Mclaren is already faster than the TR and RB's by a large margin, yet they are nowhere.

Time for some shareholders to press Ron and get someone capable in charge.

 

Bye! 

[Requiem84]

fighting for the title in 2012 and not able to score points 3 years later.

Could be a record in Formula 1?

[frosty125]

Time for some shareholders to press Ron and get someone capable in charge.

He owns 75% of the group now so that won't happen.

[RunningMan]

Remember all those people who 6 months ago said that Honda would have a huge advantage starting one year late? Funny how wrong they were.

[AustinF1]

He owns 75% of the group now so that won't happen.

I hadn't seen anything about that being settled. Link?

 

Last I heard was that he wanted to add to his 25% shares but that the deal was pending his acquisition of funding to close the deal.

Edited by AustinF1, 11 May 2015 - 22:34.

[micktosin]

He owns 75% of the group now so that won't happen.

Not even close to 75%. The rumour is, he is trying to increase his stake to 40% through some funds.

[Treads]

Not even close to 75%. The rumour is, he is trying to increase his stake to 40% through some funds.

The rumour per Wikipedia is 75%. Bernie even confirmed this deal had gone through although it was denied by the group.

[AustinF1]

The rumour per Wikipedia is 75%. Bernie even confirmed this deal had gone through although it was denied by the group.

I think Bernie's comments were at the same time or even a day or so before the news stories about Dennis still needing the funding to complete the deal. To me it all still seems unclear .

 

ETA: Ah, yeah Here it is. It was the same day. Even BE said RD had yet to pay for the shares. There's no confirmation out there yet that he's paid for them ... that I know of.

 

http://www.forbes.co...ays-ecclestone/

 

Formula One’s boss Bernie Ecclestone says that Bahrain’s Mumtalakat sovereign wealth fund has sold a 50% stake in the McLaren team to its chief executive Ron Dennis.

“[Mumtalakat] are nothing more to do with the race company any more,” said Mr Ecclestone. “They have sold the shares to Ron. He has got to pay for them by a certain date. If he doesn’t pay he will obviously take them back but at the moment Ron would own the company.”

As no shares have changed hands yet it remains to be seen if the transaction will take place. ... The announcement was originally expected around 1 December and it was widely rumoured that the delay was due to an attempt by Mr Dennis to raise the finance to buy out Mumtalakat.

...

... At a media briefing in London on Thursday Mr Ecclestone said that the wealth fund had finally sold its stake and although the price is not known, Forbes estimates that the team is worth $800 million.

 

A McLaren spokesman confirmed the talks that Mr Ecclestone alluded to and also that no shares have changed hands. “No transaction has taken place, but the shareholders have had discussions on how to best facilitate and enhance the future growth of the McLaren Group.

“When and if a transaction takes place, it is not envisioned that the current shareholders will exit McLaren completely, and announcements would be made at the appropriate time.”

 

 

Wow...So Ron needs $400M-ish?

Edited by AustinF1, 12 May 2015 - 01:31.

[Jimisgod]

What a mess. So much for upgrades.

[Treads]

I think Bernie's comments were at the same time or even a day or so before the news stories about Dennis still needing the funding to complete the deal. To me it all still seems unclear .

ETA: Ah, yeah Here it is. It was the same day. Even BE said RD had yet to pay for the shares. There's no confirmation out there yet that he's paid for them ... that I know of.

http://www.forbes.co...ays-ecclestone/

Yeah good memory, thanks for finding the original source.

Bottom line is, to stay as CEO, Ron needs the support of Mumtakalat or TAG. But not both.

If he wishes to buy one out... We must assume the value of the group has gone south a LONG way since Daimler sold their shares; accordingly Ron wouldn't need the £650m+ that buying half the group would have meant then. But his personal wealth is mostly tied up in his existing McLaren shares. He doesn't have huge amounts of cash lying around. I don't know where he'd find the necessary cash. I strongly doubt he even has enough cash to leverage to borrow to fund the purchase and for damn sure Mac's cash flows wouldn't cover the financing costs for long.

Edited by Treads, 12 May 2015 - 01:38.

[TakataDomeNSX]

http://www.planetf1....-GP-Conclusions

 

'The Scariest 30 Laps Of My Life'
Jenson Button has driven a lot of fast cars and faced his fair share of high-speed shunts in his 270 grands prix. Yet the above quote is how he described his experience behind the wheel of the MP4-30 in Spain.

Team-mate Fernando Alonso echoed the Brit's thoughts. "It was scary. No brakes for the whole in-lap, and for the pitstop even less," Alonso said.

 

Five races into the season and the MP4-30 is slow and scary. It is also unreliable, having failed to start and/or finish 40 per cent of the races it has entered. The reunion with Honda has, thus far, been an unhappy one.

 

But F1 anoraks know that the history book tells an intriguing story about constructors taking on new engine suppliers.

 

Twenty years ago McLaren wed itself to Mercedes. Initially, the marriage was an unhappy one. The McLaren Mercedes MP4-10 was a "radical" car, according to the experts, but this failed to translate into results and in 1995 mechanical failures (most of which were engine-related) forced the car out of 35 per cent of the races it started that season.

 

Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

 

The postscript is, of course, that Mika Hakkinen won successive championships with Mercedes power in the late 1990s.

[teejay]

fighting for the title in 2012 and not able to score points 3 years later.

Could be a record in Formula 1?

 

And the attached "Lewis is stupid for moving to Merc"

 

If you include Brawn-Merc, they have won 2 in 5 years.

 

McLaren haven't won since 08, though they should have won 07, probably 10 and 12.

 

It is sad watching this, even if I enjoy my favourite driver having success atm.

 

At least the car looks good.

[muramasa]

I wonder how Alonso feels about this but he is a samurai

 

He literally is

 

 

 

 

 

He also confirmed the Honda guys have a different way to approach the work load than Europeans, basically confirmed the rumours of Honda working slow, with no rush and making all kind of checks.

 

Seems Honda side is more than well aware that swift decision is key in F1, naturally it takes some time to adapt to it, also in order for it step by step approach is essential so hopefully they'll get used to it quick.

 

http://forums.autosp...-era/?p=7036924

 

"by doing F1, what benefit is to Honda, and how has Honda as a company improved? What do you think?"

• The great thing about doing F1 is that you have to have accurate and swift decision making in limited time and tight schedule. Not only that, you are required to be capable of making instant decision on-site, without asking someone else. Engineers in charge are put in such harsh environment. There, sometimes you make correct judgement, sometimes you fail of course. Engineers accumulate experience through those processes. Swift decision in limited time frame. Even if it's not the bestest decision, you learn to hit "best possible point" in short time. Engineers can get such training naturally. That's what senior engineers in the company went through as well. So, as a method of developing/training engineers, racing is ideal place to be.

Edited by muramasa, 12 May 2015 - 06:32.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

Our first preseason test 

Hopefully McLarenHonda will achieve their goals from tests 

Edited by RYARLE, 12 May 2015 - 07:43.

[Owen]

Barcelona F1 test: McLaren-Honda to experiment heavily

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/118929

[CPR]

Barcelona F1 test: McLaren-Honda to experiment heavily
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/118929

No mention of what they're testing in the PU... though no quote from Honda either.

[Ferrari2183]

Developing a new philosophy? 

[smr]

Our first preseason test 

Hopefully McLarenHonda will achieve their goals from tests 

you mean in season?

[Rinehart]

Developing a new philosophy? 

Developing THE new philosophy. 

[Christophe77]

We want results, not excuses... 

More testing, more 'big' upgrades promised, then more disappointment. This circle just keeps on going. 

How long before things will implode? 

Come to think of it: what's the biggest risk at the moment? Is a totale collapse possible? I mean, there's no big sponsor that can pull out. Honda's just in, so unlikely to pull the plug this or next year. I guess Alonso could call it a day? Other sponsors like Exxon could pull out... But would that be a catastrophy?

[Sebastien007]

Relax, remember that the whole season will one big test session, it is already too late to think about the championschip