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I don't understand.

I know this is not a support thread, but i don't see the point of coming to the thread named "Alonso" to say "the block was better" or to talk about Vettel's achievements.

Wake up! There´s a german guy (only 24 years old) he´s going to join the same achievements than Alonso with almost 100 races less... we can talk about class above

Alonso was betrayed by Mclaren and I consider him a much better driver than Lewis (that not means that I not consider Lewis an amazing driver too).

In case you didn't notice Vettel was 1 year and a half in a not so nice team and then jumped right to a Newey's car that have been title contender for 3 years.
Meanwhile Alonso came to F1 in the worst team of the grid to later go to a middfield brand for years (till that brand could make a title contender car).

So I don't understand how could someone do comparisons about what two drivers achieved in X races taking into account those two drivers were not given the same tools equally or similarly during that number of races and that they both didn't have to cope with the same degree of competitiveness. Vettel has had a title contender car more often than not, and in two out of three years where he had it his car was so diminant that he had only real competition from his own team mate.

Therefore, an unfair data to take in order to talk about the class of these two drivers.

Also the Toro Rosso at Monza was the fastest car... and at China 07 or Monaco 08... Vettel always drove the best car. Even the Webber car is a different chassis car...

Erm... Actually if you even bothered to follow 2008 season, indeed the Toro Rosso was the fastest car at Italy and under the conditions that took place that day. Vettel got the pole position and Bourdais got 4rd at qualifying. Not that Vettel was given the victory, he was nice and is a talented driver, but again, denying a fact and reality to hail a driver is completely oblivious.

Also, the Toro Rosso from back then wasn't the Toro Rosso we know today despite that some Vettel's fans want to believe it was. In reality It was a car that allowed Vettel to finish in the top 10 exactly ten times and five times in the top 5. If a driver is able to finish in X position is because the car can run as fast to get that X position.

Of course Vettel is a very good driver, made the difference back then, and blah blah, but again you are bringing some quite unfair sarcasms there.

If you want to believe Vettel is a class above it's ok, but if you need to be unfair to hail him...



It's like if I said Alonso's car at Hungary in 2003 wasn't fast... He made the difference as Vettel did in a Toro Rosso but saying his car wasn't fast would be pretty dumb just like in Vettel's case regarding certain races such as Italy.

Also, I never heard anyone here saying Webber runs a car with a different chassis than Vettel, so besides unfair you are being a demagogue. Enjoy your cave.

It all depends on Newey.

some funny statistic, between 1999 and 2010 NO Newey car delivered a championship. Drivers in those cars: Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, Pedro de La Rosa, Mark Webber, Christijan Klien.
Another funny statistic: Between 9/10/2005 (Raikkonen Japan) and 14/9/2008 (Vettel Monza) no Newey car won a single race (although to be honest he didn't design a car in 2006. But fielded 4 in 2008)

one could conclude that even a Newey designed car is no guarantee for succes. (I will admit the RB7 is a great car, but it is no way near as good as the championship standings suggest.)

some funny statistic, between 1999 and 2010 NO Newey car delivered a championship. Drivers in those cars: Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, Pedro de La Rosa, Mark Webber, Christijan Klien.
Another funny statistic: Between 9/10/2005 (Raikkonen Japan) and 14/9/2008 (Vettel Monza) no Newey car won a single race (although to be honest he didn't design a car in 2006. But fielded 4 in 2008)

one could conclude that even a Newey designed car is no guarantee for succes. (I will admit the RB7 is a great car, but it is no way near as good as the championship standings suggest.)

If it would be so easy - just a better car than rest of them - then AN could sit in, drive it, and win as well. There would not need for Sebastian. Horner would be sitting in the second one. A lot of money would be saved that way.

some funny statistic, between 1999 and 2010 NO Newey car delivered a championship. Drivers in those cars: Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, Pedro de La Rosa, Mark Webber, Christijan Klien.
Another funny statistic: Between 9/10/2005 (Raikkonen Japan) and 14/9/2008 (Vettel Monza) no Newey car won a single race (although to be honest he didn't design a car in 2006. But fielded 4 in 2008)

one could conclude that even a Newey designed car is no guarantee for succes. (I will admit the RB7 is a great car, but it is no way near as good as the championship standings suggest.)

Some people assume a Newey car guarantees success.

Lets see how this 'special' driving style works in a non newey car that is super glued to the track. He was slower than bourdais until torro rosso got the updated newey chassis.

some funny statistic, between 1999 and 2010 NO Newey car delivered a championship. Drivers in those cars: Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, Pedro de La Rosa, Mark Webber, Christijan Klien.
Another funny statistic: Between 9/10/2005 (Raikkonen Japan) and 14/9/2008 (Vettel Monza) no Newey car won a single race (although to be honest he didn't design a car in 2006. But fielded 4 in 2008)

one could conclude that even a Newey designed car is no guarantee for succes. (I will admit the RB7 is a great car, but it is no way near as good as the championship standings suggest.)

His special driving style would probably work just as well in any other car. It's about understanding the tyres. I dare to say he would not have te problems Alonso has at the moments. I don't doubt Vettel would get the harder tyres working on the Ferrari. He would probably score more points in the Ferrari than it has now.

some funny statistic, between 1999 and 2010 NO Newey car delivered a championship. Drivers in those cars: Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, Pedro de La Rosa, Mark Webber, Christijan Klien.
Another funny statistic: Between 9/10/2005 (Raikkonen Japan) and 14/9/2008 (Vettel Monza) no Newey car won a single race (although to be honest he didn't design a car in 2006. But fielded 4 in 2008)

one could conclude that even a Newey designed car is no guarantee for succes. (I will admit the RB7 is a great car, but it is no way near as good as the championship standings suggest.)

You don't get it.

All that became because I said that the fastest laps are not the absolutely truth. And like I proved, I´m right.

Vettel was on the front and didn´t risked pushing, because he didn´t need. It´s logical and not too difficult to understand, a sign of maturity of the WC that became some years after Monza.

Vettel achieved the récord of points in Toro Rosso by so far. He did on 2008. Just 39 points, he achieved 35 for the team.

When he left TR the team achieved 8 points. And even with the new change of points in 2010... he still keeps the record.
(It´s normal Giorgio compared him with Senna not only qualyfing)

But we all know that Toro Rosso in 2008 was the fastest car and he needs a Newey car...

Very easy

some funny statistic, between 1999 and 2010 NO Newey car delivered a championship. Drivers in those cars: Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, Pedro de La Rosa, Mark Webber, Christijan Klien.
Another funny statistic: Between 9/10/2005 (Raikkonen Japan) and 14/9/2008 (Vettel Monza) no Newey car won a single race (although to be honest he didn't design a car in 2006. But fielded 4 in 2008)

one could conclude that even a Newey designed car is no guarantee for succes. (I will admit the RB7 is a great car, but it is no way near as good as the championship standings suggest.)

The RBR on Webber hand´s is a similar car as McLaren this year. On Vettel hands... it´s one of the best cars. Easy. Even Jenson Button recognized.

You misunderstand me. I'm not doubting it was a fantastic win, but many people are of the opinion (like you say everyone is entitled to it) that there was no way the Toro Rosso could've won a race, but for Vettel. My point is that at Monza, it definitely was either the best or 2nd best car on the grid.

Well they may be saying the STRF couldn't have won but for Vettel, but you are saying that Vettel couldn't have won but for the STRF. What's the difference? To me, both arguments are disingenious.

It was clearly the combination of Vettel and the STRF that got the job done that day. But you can't discount the artistry and aptitude of either.

Of course Vettel was a part of it, but it was only 'against the odds' because of the team's history, not because of it's present (2008 of course) form. This wasn't a win in a Minardi, this was a win in an Adrian Newey-designed, Ferrari-powered full 'works' (in that it had the same developments as up at RBR) car that was run by old Minardi guys, a team who always ran their cars, however good they were, impeccably. The historical image of the team was no more, yet that is what makes up the bulk of the 'myth'... 'Vettel wins in Minardi' etc etc etc.

Well I see what you are saying - and looking at it from that perspective, you likely expected Vettel to pole and win - thus there was no excitement for you except that you ended up being right.

But most people were not as perceptive as you and were shocked at the pole. And even after the pole, they felt that the STRF wouldn't be first to the checkered flag. "A podium would be fantastic" claimed the BBC commentator, and as a fan of Vettel, I agreed and hoped he'd do it. However, I fully expected some of the better running cars to take and keep the lead during the race. As the race progressed, that didn't happen, and it was with growing excitement that everyone started to realize that he might not only get a podium, but if he kept it up, 1st. That was what was against the odds. Not the ability of the car which was clearly running fantastic on the day - but Vettel's performance as a rookie (he was still in his 1st full season behind the wheel), and the continued performance of the car (it was running well, but it was - alas - a midgridder, which means that everything could go completely wrong at any moment. If you need proof of that, check out what happened to his teammate in that STRF running great on the day.)

To add to the excitement and against all odds ideology:

-It was raining and drivers were having problems - good drivers. Vettel drove well, but his car had a few excursions during the race as well, yet he managed to keep it on track in first.

-It was the very first win for any of the Red Bull backed teams - building on the Minardi sure, but that is the whole point - they had to build on it and they did it. It was a great win for RBR and Minardi lovers could also celebrate from a historical standpoint. More importantly, the whole team and crew could celebrate as well - it was a stellar accomplishment in every aspect that went into race day from crew, to team, to company to driver, etc.

-It was Vettel's first win and pole and he happened to be the youngest ever driver doing so - in a mid grid car that was having the day of its life right along with him.

-It was Ferrari powered - and it was Monza - the crowd was insane. The car with italian roots; the italian engine; the italian anthem being played (in error, lol) - it was fantastic.

So that is a small snapshot of why it was a fantastic F1 moment to many (there are other reasons of course). Seb's onboard lap following the race evidences what most on the grid thought about it too. You should check it out if Youtube still has a copy.

Once the specific circumstances are considered - all of them - it is one of the 'great' wins in F1 history. Vettel was a part of it - as was his (increasingly better performing during the season) STRF. But that was just the tip of the iceberg. There are so many firsts associated with that drive/driver/car/team, and so many props going out to the many connected to the drive - and so many in F1 lauding it all before, during and after, it is rather ingenious of you to discount it as 'just another good win' among the many in F1. But perhaps you are serious, and everyone is truly welcome to their Honest opinion. I would have to disagree with you though, and I believe 99.9% of the world of F1 would too (if they were honest).

You misunderstand me. I'm not doubting it was a fantastic win, but many people are of the opinion (like you say everyone is entitled to it) that there was no way the Toro Rosso could've won a race, but for Vettel. My point is that at Monza, it definitely was either the best or 2nd best car on the grid.

Of course Vettel was a part of it, but it was only 'against the odds' because of the team's history, not because of it's present (2008 of course) form. This wasn't a win in a Minardi, this was a win in an Adrian Newey-designed, Ferrari-powered full 'works' (in that it had the same developments as up at RBR) car that was run by old Minardi guys, a team who always ran their cars, however good they were, impeccably. The historical image of the team was no more, yet that is what makes up the bulk of the 'myth'... 'Vettel wins in Minardi' etc etc etc.

I have to agree in many instances with slideways and especially jez33. As I said after the race in Korea and agreeing with Sir Jack, Webber lost the championship right there and then. All he had to do is keep the car on the tarmac and bring home a good load of points and the championship was almost in the bag.

Things learned from both drivers:

- Webber has bogey tracks (Vettel does not though this year he improved his Valencia showing speed wise, race was a completely different story)
- Webber does not have the mental toughness going into the end of a championship despite what everyone says (the same reason why he did not win F3000, in Korea and Abu Dhabi he did not like he even wanted to be there)
- Webber is too cautious when in the lead causing Monza and Valencia to end up being poor races when he should have made the most of it.
- Webber has improved his consistency (but is still crash happy) but needs to improve it to the point where he is making the maximum out of the car 5 races straight etc. and not 2 littered with poor finishes the next event after
- Webber needs to improve his starts
- Webber can play the political game off track and is blunt, but sometimes it does not help his situation (Brazil, rumoured McLaren drive to replace Alonso)

- Vettel is blindingly quick (I always thought Webber was superfast in qualifying hammering his old team-mates, but after Vettel has done the same to him there is no question Vettel is quick)
- Vettel needs to improve his racecraft (something Webber is much better at despite his crashes and being marginal at times on the racetrack)
- Vettel needs to improve his mental toughness during the race
- Vettel needs to be less of car breaker to help his own chances (Barcelona comes to mind, running over kerbs both in Turkey Qly and Monza)

- Both drivers are brillant when out in front.

What I noticed and a lot of reasons why Webber finished ahead of his team-mates was he was able to qualify ahead and have car position. Except whenever Webber was crash happy and inconsistent - part of reason why Heidfield was able to outscore him during his season at Williams. Now the tables are turned, except Vettel is much quicker and able to match/go faster than Webber.

All this time, I too thought Webber would make the step up with the tier 1 guys i.e. Hamilton, Alonso and yes I'll put Vettel in that bracket once he improves his racecraft, but this hasn't happened. He is not fast enough on all tracks and that will put him at a disadvantage every time. I expect him to have another great year next year but I don't see him mounting a WDC without improving in all those areas. It will be even harder with KERs being introduced as this will play more into Vettel's hands.

It was a great season for Webber but is slowly disintegrated which is what is most disappointing. He is still a brillant driver but IMO will never be considered part of the elite tier 1 group.

Hamilton/Alonso/Vettel
Webber/Kubica/Rosberg
Button (While Button is a brillant strategic racer, he will never have the speed that those guys have above unless the car is absolutely in the sweet spot for him, otherwise he can be way off the pace)
Massa (Excellent 2008 but does not have the pace, consistency and was/isn't great in the rain. I've never considered him worthy of the Ferrari drive in the first place)
....

As DC says, you are only as good as your last race. Given Webber's last race of the season was pretty much his worst of the whole season both in qualifying and race you can see why all fans feel like he isn't as good as he was mid-season. Opinions will change again next year, that's how fickle we all are. If Newey produces another stunner next year which I bet he will, Vettel IMO will be on his way to his next championship.

Hey, at least it wasn't a drubbing like Alonso gave to Fisi once he got his hands on a top car. We know that Webber can compete at the front and dominate races. He just needs to do that more often.

Fact is Webber and Vettel have driven this teams performance through the roof. Webber, Newey, Coulthard and now Vettel have built this team into world beaters.

That's an assertion not backed by history, mate.

Webber is a specialist in driving his teams to bankrupt [Minardi, Jaguar], while Vettel is some kind of King Midas.

I would like to highlight 2008, when the development skills of Webber made RedBull fall through the grid, while Vettel took ToroRosso, the scoundrels of Webber's Minardi and won Monza.


Leave Webber and Horner on their own and the team will do a 2008 again.

I hope Vettel leaves RB e goes to Mercedes, since he is not having fun at RB anymore.

As I said after the race in Korea and agreeing with Sir Jack, Webber lost the championship right there and then. All he had to do is keep the car on the tarmac and bring home a good load of points and the championship was almost in the bag.

Things learned from both drivers:

- Webber has bogey tracks (Vettel does not though this year he improved his Valencia showing speed wise, race was a completely different story)
- Webber does not have the mental toughness going into the end of a championship despite what everyone says (the same reason why he did not win F3000, in Korea and Abu Dhabi he did not like he even wanted to be there)
- Webber is too cautious when in the lead causing Monza and Valencia to end up being poor races when he should have made the most of it.
- Webber has improved his consistency (but is still crash happy) but needs to improve it to the point where he is making the maximum out of the car 5 races straight etc. and not 2 littered with poor finishes the next event after
- Webber needs to improve his starts
- Webber can play the political game off track and is blunt, but sometimes it does not help his situation (Brazil, rumoured McLaren drive to replace Alonso)

- Vettel is blindingly quick (I always thought Webber was superfast in qualifying hammering his old team-mates, but after Vettel has done the same to him there is no question Vettel is quick)
- Vettel needs to improve his racecraft (something Webber is much better at despite his crashes and being marginal at times on the racetrack)
- Vettel needs to improve his mental toughness during the race
- Vettel needs to be less of car breaker to help his own chances (Barcelona comes to mind, running over kerbs both in Turkey Qly and Monza)

- Both drivers are brillant when out in front.

What I noticed and a lot of reasons why Webber finished ahead of his team-mates was he was able to qualify ahead and have car position. Except whenever Webber was crash happy and inconsistent - part of reason why Heidfield was able to outscore him during his season at Williams. Now the tables are turned, except Vettel is much quicker and able to match/go faster than Webber.

All this time, I too thought Webber would make the step up with the tier 1 guys i.e. Hamilton, Alonso and yes I'll put Vettel in that bracket once he improves his racecraft, but this hasn't happened. He is not fast enough on all tracks and that will put him at a disadvantage every time. I expect him to have another great year next year but I don't see him mounting a WDC without improving in all those areas. It will be even harder with KERs being introduced as this will play more into Vettel's hands.

It was a great season for Webber but is slowly disintegrated which is what is most disappointing. He is still a brillant driver but IMO will never be considered part of the elite tier 1 group.

Hamilton/Alonso/Vettel
Webber/Kubica/Rosberg
Button (While Button is a brillant strategic racer, he will never have the speed that those guys have above unless the car is absolutely in the sweet spot for him, otherwise he can be way off the pace)
Massa (Excellent 2008 but does not have the pace, consistency and was/isn't great in the rain. I've never considered him worthy of the Ferrari drive in the first place)
....

As DC says, you are only as good as your last race. Given Webber's last race of the season was pretty much his worst of the whole season both in qualifying and race you can see why all fans feel like he isn't as good as he was mid-season. Opinions will change again next year, that's how fickle we all are. If Newey produces another stunner next year which I bet he will, Vettel IMO will be on his way to his next championship.

Hey, at least it wasn't a drubbing like Alonso gave to Fisi once he got his hands on a top car. We know that Webber can compete at the front and dominate races. He just needs to do that more often.

Agree with all of what you say pretty much. But the best thing about your post is that it's balanced & objective imho. You acknowledge both driver's. Compliment their strengths & point out their weaknesses in your opinion. A pity some others can't look at things in the same manner that you do.

But if he ever did come out & say it, his knockers would simply say he's making excuses for being beaten. Mark knows the deal & RBR has made it clear that team/car will being built around Seb. Seb is the future, unfortunately Mark is not, end of story.

Not to forget possibly 3+ (Multiple) World Champion, unfortunately Mark is not.

Although it sounds ridiculous, Webber can't really say anything regarding the car through his own performances!! I mean c'mon, whats he going to sell to convince Adrian Newey & co that the car should be built around him & not Sebastian Vettel ?? Nobody is going to say he's making excuses, but I can imagine the whole paddock, media & fans having a chuckle.... I mean he hasn't done anything spectacular to Demand his preferences. Vettel has.

Sebastian Vettel's time of saying build a car around me and I'll win you Championships started in Monza 2008, driving a Torro Rosso.
Mark Webber's time of saying build a car around me and I'll win you championships passed away in Korea 2010.

Vettel’s 2008 Monza win was MASSIVELY over-hyped. If you actually sit down, and look at the facts of the weekend, you will come to the realization that it wasn’t that amazing at all.

And the car should have been DQed for the entire season because it used RBR/Newey IP. <- My unpopular opinion.

But last time he was in similar conditions in a not far from an HRT like car - He won !!

You're comparing the 2008 Torro Rosso to the HRT?

The same Newey chassis whose butt is being kicked by Lotus / Merc who have noname designers?

Anyway what is more tickle worthy is the subconcious comparison someone made between NK and SV .. Really? Seb will finish 10 positions up on average than NK in the saem crappy car

I know , the point is that Newey chassis is no guarantee that it wont be a dog.

His rep has been hyped by the recent successes which had a lot to do with the drivers , the strategic team , the fuel efficient engine and even the pit stop guys !

Without Adrian Newey where would Vettel be?

OK - but people throw Newey name around as if he injects downforce in a chassis , by waving his hands.
No , the car was efficient because of the EBD (and only in Qualy where they could afford it ) , it was Seb , the team and other factors who eked out 11 wins in the races out of it.

Conclusion - In 2008 , borrowed Newey chassis for the Torro Rosso with no updates , no EBD and poorer pitwall and pitstop teams and combined with less skilled drivers (coz of less exp) , 2008 Monza could be considered as a backmarker winning ...

But we know the forum wisdom - whenever Vettel wins , its the car and the magic chassis - So its all good !

The 2008 Torro Rosso was not a backmarker car it regularly qualified into Q3

The Sauber looks pretty strong.
6 + 8 in Melbourne. They are after Mclaren, Red Bull and Ferrari the best team atm.

In 2008 we had Mclaren, Ferrari, BMW, Renault, Toyata and Red Bull with better cars than the Toro Rosso.

Lets have a look at qualifying using Q2 times in 2008 when the cars were light fuelled unlike Q3, starting when Vettel got the Newey designed car:-

2008
Silverstone

1. McLaren 1-19.597
2. Red Bull 1-19.710
3. BMW 1-19.802
4. Ferrari 1-19.971
5. Renault 1-19.992
6. Torro Rosso 1-20.109 +0.512s (made it to Q3)

Germany

1. McLaren 1-14.603
2. Ferrari 1-14.747
3. Renault 1-14.943
4. BMW 1-15.109
5. Toyota 1-15.122
6. Red Bull 1-15.338
7. Torro Rosso 1-15.420 +0.817s (made it to Q3)

Hungary

1. Ferrari 1-19.068
2. Toyota 1-19.246
3. McLaren 1-19.376
4. BMW 1-19.776
5. Renault 1-19.816
6. Red Bull 1-20.046
7. Torro Rosso 1-20.144 +0.984s (qualified 11th)

2012

Australia

1. McLaren 1-24.922
2. Lotus 1-25.302
3. Mercedes 1-25.336
4. Red Bull 1-25.651
5. Williams 1-25.908
6. Sauber 1-26.182 +1.26s (would have made it into Q3 with this time)

Malaysia

1. McLaren 1-36.219
2. Mercedes 1-36.391
3. Red Bull 1-36.461
4. Lotus 1-36.461
5. Ferrari 1-37.379
6. Sauber 1-37.477 +1.285s (made it into Q3)

I see little difference in the merits of the two cars and on top of that Perez beat Vettel in a presumably inferior car

2 races - in which Seb split the Mclaren's in one and was in contention for the podium in the other untill he got taken out while his team mate hasnt even threatened to get on the podium in either of the races - and you have so much to say. Ever wondered why your boy hasnt been able to repeat his (MA) amazing consistancy of 2007 ever since then? Perhaps the term 'TC' might give you the answer to it.

I dont recall Lewis winning the 2008 WDC with TC

I do find it amusing that again, the media have jumped on Sebs back and are calling iut a nightmare season and that actually, he is just like every other driver
So that explains why there's only 3 men out of 24 with 2+ titles, only 2 men with more wins, only 1 man with more poles (and at a lower strike rate) and all this in 80-odd starts at 24 years.

Sebs 'nightmare season' is
A great recovery drive after a difficult qualy to beat a faster car diven by a very talented driver to 2nd place
A reasonable recovery drive to sit 4th and with a shout of 3rd in a very difficult race before a silly tangle with a backmarker
1 mistake on a hot lap in qualy 1 good lap on the less grippy tyres and being 2-0 down to a very capable qualifier.

Its like if a top footy side won the first game then lost a tricky away game 2nd game, then would we write off their title chances? No

Remember they did the same after Nurburgring and Hungary last year, and were duly made to eat Humble Pie.

In Australia lets just forget Lewis's bad first pitstop, the SC and the fuel saving after lap 8 because McLaren got the fuel calculations wrong

Vettel qualified on the harder tyres because he was no good on the softer tyres

Even the best designer can't expect to win all the championships every year, all years. F1 is so difficult and competitive that even if you're the best overall, there's always gonna be people who beat you.

Eaxctly !
If we follow the original point , the discussion was about how people throw Newey second hand chassis in the discussion about Monza 2008.

His chassis doesnt mean that it will always be fighting at the top - there are lot of other factors like the regs (like no EBD), the team and their decisions and finally and quite importantly the driver !
Do we beleive NK would be winning in Newey chassis? And people are desperate enough to compare NK to SV

OK - but people throw Newey name around as if he injects downforce in a chassis , by waving his hands.
No , the car was efficient because of the EBD (and only in Qualy where they could afford it ) , it was Seb , the team and other factors who eked out 11 wins in the races out of it.

Conclusion - In 2008 , borrowed Newey chassis for the Torro Rosso with no updates , no EBD and poorer pitwall and pitstop teams and combined with less skilled drivers (coz of less exp) , 2008 Monza could be considered as a backmarker winning ...

But we know the forum wisdom - whenever Vettel wins , its the car and the magic chassis - So its all good !

Wasn't that the same race where Bourdais qualified forth, and had comparable pace with Vettel during the race?

Undoubtedly Vettel is a great driver, but the races you mention, together with his maiden win in 2008 were all achieved in a car which was very capable in wet weather conditions. Add to the fact that Vettel is without question RedBull's favourite son, and you can see why his results stack up so well. Then there's the modern day equilvalent of the FW14b and FW15c made available to him (Newey designs), and you may appreciate why some people believe he's not the best thing since Fangio.

The point isn't how he compares to some past driver from a different era. The point is that I feel you are poorly delimiting his achievement in the 2008 season based on the idea that all he managed to achieve was to fulfill the potential of the car. But that is a very special achievement in F1. The 2008 STRF was often good enough to get top 10 finishes and sometimes top 5 finishes and even win (at Monza). We know that. Why do we know that? Because Vettel did it. The point is that the 20 year old Vettel generally got the potential out of the car and that is the most that a driver can ever do.

You might suggest ANY driver would do the same given that 2008 STRF. But that is just simply false. Let's look at some examples: Fisi's car had the potential to win at Suzuka 2005 and Vettel's car had the potential to win at Canada 2011 for two desparate examples. And neither won. In the first case, Kimi came along and whomped Fisi and his renault outta the way on the final lap and Button did the same to Vettel in Canada. Lewis' Macca had the potential to be in the top 5 at Monaco 2011, but not the way he drove it. So yeah, having a great car with great potential is one thing. Driving it to its potential is another. More current examples? Ask Vettel's 2008 teammate - he too had some good performances, but he didn't make it sing the way Vettel did, not even close. Ask Hamilton's 2008 teammate. Heikke had the potential to win at Monza 2008, but Vettel outdrove him that day in his car that also had the potential. Ask Alonso, who had the potential for a top 5 finish at Valencia 2010, but literally gave it away to a mottle of midgridders as he sat in his car fuming over Hamilton and got no where near the potential from his car that day. That happens, that's racing. However, every driver I have mentioned has also pulled out some great performances so all you have to do is think back a little to find them.

So no, I cannot appreciate why some people keep talking about wanting to see Vettel in certain situations, when he has clearly been in them and performed well (and better with time as expected). And while you started off with that argument and ended on the 'comparisons to the greats' argument, I am purposely keeping them separate. I don't think you can accurately compare drivers from different eras, so I would agree with you that those types of conclusions about any driver on the current grid are just for fun.

If McLaren and / or Ferrari (preferably both) provide real competition this season and Vettel trashes them all, then I'll be the first in this thread to congratulate him and eat humble pie. I just somehow cannot see him (or any other driver currently on the grid) destroying the opposion like in 2011 without the best car by far at their disposal. If the McLaren is half as good as it looks so far, then I expect Vettel to take a good few wins, but nothing like witnessed last year. Either way, best of luck, I hope the battle is close and fair.

Kind of like 2010? Where were you in 2010? That is exactly what happened - Vettel took a few good wins. Although the RBR was the best car over all, Vettel's reliability issues evened things out completely. Now while you seem to need "pace" to even things out, what difference does it make what the evening factor is? Reliability, errors, incidents, strategy, lack of pace, who cares what the reason is? You are never, ever going to have a season where all the top cars have equal race and qually pace, equal reliability, equal team strategy calls, equal numbers of incidents, an equal number of errors, etc, across the board. You can't even get that in a spec series. But 2010 was as close as we can hope for in F1. 2010 gave us the close battle you are talking about, 5 driver/car combos going for the win with 3 races to go and 4 gunning for the win at the final race. You simply can't get any closer than that. The battle was close and fair and every one of those drivers was put in a position to have to press their cars to their potential to win. Vettel won, but it could have been anyone of them. So if you want to see that again, that is cool (but generally a difficult proposition). But if you are trying to pretend 2010 never happened or that the "reasons" fore parity matter - then I would have to disagree.

So I don't know why you say you "expect" to happen what already has happened if Vettel's car is not dominant. We already know that is what will happen. That is what has happened in racing down through the ages of time. No driver thrashes the entire field to the extent Vettel did in 2011 unless he has an overall dominant car (reliability, strategy, lack of errors, lack of incidents, and good race-qually pace included). I haven't ever seen any fan or foe of Vettel, or any other driver, suggest otherwise.

OK - but people throw Newey name around as if he injects downforce in a chassis , by waving his hands.
No , the car was efficient because of the EBD (and only in Qualy where they could afford it ) , it was Seb , the team and other factors who eked out 11 wins in the races out of it.

Conclusion - In 2008 , borrowed Newey chassis for the Torro Rosso with no updates , no EBD and poorer pitwall and pitstop teams and combined with less skilled drivers (coz of less exp) , 2008 Monza could be considered as a backmarker winning ...

But we know the forum wisdom - whenever Vettel wins , its the car and the magic chassis - So its all good !

But the Toro Rosso of 2008 is more comparable with the Sauber of today which got a podium the other day a bit of luck goes a long way.

Vettels drive was obviously amazing in 2008 but Vettel fan boys make out he was driving a tractor.

You will have to excuse the dodgy formatting. I'll be using red text for this post so you will be able to easily find my comments--the board informed me that I had exceeded the number of allowed quote tags before making my post. My apologies in advance for the inconvenience (and to everyone else who remembers my liberal use of red text in the past ).

Vettel did it with a dominant car, Alonso did not, infact you will barely find anyone who reckons the 06 Renault was the best car, yet no one with a straight face will claim wasnt the fastest car by a mile. Vettel fans just need to accept that he has only won titles in a dominant car, unlike really great drivers.

And again, we're certain of the car's pace through what formula exactly? You people keep ranting on about how you know which car was the best and how, but I still haven't seen any logical methods which can applied to provide a conclusive answer for the pace of all the drivers...

As if that proves anything at all?? It proves everything, and its one of the biggest reasons why Senna and Prost are rated so highly. A team mate is the only true benchmark a driver can have so it has a lot of value, proves a lot. How can you say Hamilton proved nothing by matching Alonso?? It proved he was a great driver. Losing to Button meant he had a poor season, but it does not erase what he proved in 2007. Vettel has yet to prove he can beat a quality top line team mate. Schumacher was also critisized for that by the way, but he made up for it by spending half his career without the best car.

(This is exactly the sort of bias I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. By your own admission, Button was not driving the best car last year, yet he still managed to secure a strong run of results and beat a 'rated WDC teammate'. The excuse? Exactly what I said it would be: "Oh, Hamilton had a bad year." How is it possible that what Hamilton did in 2007 is sufficient to prove his talent for the rest of his career? Would you really still rate him as a great driver if he had another season like 2011?

This is why we have a hard time taking opinions like yours seriously. If you don't rate Button even after he has filled your criteria, then there is absolutely no reason for us to believe you will rate Vettel either. This sort of double-standard is called 'hypocrisy'.)

This is no bias its the same criteria used against everyone else.

(As evidenced by the above quote, it clearly isn't.)

Very disputable that there were days he did not have the best car and prevailed. Just because he did not get pole, and had to struggle does not mean he does not have the best car. It could just mean he lost the car advantage he had.

(Again, where is this magic formula we have that can separate car pace from driver ability? )

There are two main criteria for a driver to prove themselves. The car, and team mate.

(According to who, exactly? People who think they can isolate the driver factor in a team sport? There are too many variables that prevent us from doing so, so this criteria is rendered invalid for use of concluding fact due to heavy subjective influence. You want to use it to form your own opinions? You're more than welcome to do so--but if you're going to do this, you have to apply the same standards for every driver, rather than cherry-picking outliers in order to create the ranking you want to see. You should also remember that this is only your opinion and it is important not to take it too seriously--in other words, don't confuse it with fact, as you have frequently done in your posts here.)

Hamilton and Alonso have won titles without dominant cars, while Vettel has not, so stop making up false facts.

(

The first part of your sentence contradicts the second part. The idea that Hamilton and Alonso's titles were not won in dominant cars is your opinion and cannot be proven as fact.)

Hamilton and Alonso have proved their class against top quality team mates,

(In the interest of asking, who exactly? Which 'top-quality' teammates did Alonso beat before racing against Hamilton? Hamilton is rated because he performed well against Alonso, who was relatively unproven before he raced Hamilton? By that logic, Buemi and Alguersuari could be the best two drivers ever to have raced. )

Vettel is being judged by the exact criteria everyone else is.

(No, he's being judged by your criteria in this case, which you are not applying to everyone evenly, as proved above.)

Some people like you cannot accept he fails to meet those criteria,

(After examining your posts, hopefully it isn't hard to see why.)

To be honest, it depends on your character, most people like a fair fight for something to be interesting, a smaller minority don't care, a win is just a win to them, period.

So it's a character thing now, is it? For the record, we all want to see a fair fight, and I hate to break it to you, but each F1 season is a fair fight. Every team builds and races a car under the same rules. Sounds like a pretty level playing field, if you ask me. Naturally, there will be differences in car and driver pace, but these differences help us to see exactly what we're holding the competition for: who is best. May I repeat for the umpteenth time, if you still haven't read it yet: F1 is a team sport, and the drivers are not the only people who give a team success. F1 is made all the more remarkable when teams are close throughout the year, but the reason these battles are remarkable and special is because they are so rare. This 'smaller minority' you refer to are the ones who see F1 for what it really is, and understand that winning even with a 'dominant car' by a large margin is still just as fairly earned and valid as a win in a close fight. If you can't understand this, then I'm afraid you are the one who has no understanding of F1, not us.

Monza 2008 was a good drive but like I said, Frentzen won races in a Jordan in 2009.

Er, what?

You clearly know absolutely nothing about F1, if you think, it proves nothing to prove yourself without the best car, and against strong team mates.

(Fascinating. And here I was thinking that the reason we've been running in this thing all these years was to win the WDC and WCC. )

No its just objectively judging Vettel. something you are clearly unable to do, to the point of even denying Vettel has beenb flattered by great cars, and other drivers have not. The mere concept seems to offend you, despite being objectively used for decades in the sport, but if its used against little Vettel its unfair and double standards.

(What 'offends' us is your repeated assertion that your hypocritical judgment is valid. Other posters have come and gone suggesting that Vettel is not the best and have been received quite cordially, because they make it clear that it is just their opinion and don't take their opinions any more seriously than anyone else's.)

lol. He has had a free ride his entire career by redbull,

(You make it sound so easy. Speaking of bias...)

Yes brittle when the going gets tough,

(And this has never happened to Alonso or Hamilton, right? Not even at China '07, Brazil '07, or Abu Dhabi '10, right? )

Of course, its all subjective evaluation, just as saying Senna is one of the greatest of all time. It does not mean an educated evaluation cannot be reached.

(Actually, it does, for reasons I've already pointed out. There are too many variables in Formula One to accurately determine who the best driver is. You can come to whatever conclusion you want with whatever criteria you want, but if you do not consistently apply these criteria then you must not expect us to take your opinion seriously.)

I have to admitt Im a very good judge of drivers, for example I was 100% sure, Alonso would destroy Massa, while the majority of people thought it would be a battle (lol), and after half a season I was sure Hamilton was special, so I know what I am talking about.

(Your confidence in your perceived infallibility is quite amusing. May I remind you that pride often cometh before a fall.)

It is quite clear Vettel is very good, but I am still not convinced he is truly great, based on the reasons I mentioned. I still question his ability to be fast in anything other than a brilliant Newey chassis. He could be another Kimi, who needs a certain car to excel. I hope they finally get rid of Webber next year and put Vettel up against a real young talent.

(As others have pointed out, the likelihood of your opinion changing is not very high.)

Its funny because Im pretty much the only open minded one here who is actually not making any claims, other than its too early to judge Vettel, unlike everyone else who refuses to consider they could be wrong and to budge from their beliefs.

For full disclosure, I am a Vettel fan. I believe it is very likely that he is the fastest, most-talented driver on the grid at the moment. However, my opinion is not permanent and is prone to change should I feel it is contradictory to what reality indicates. As I said before, I will let the racing do the talking--Melbourne can't come soon enough.

Generalisations are a good way to make a lot of enemies in a short amount of time. The level of hypocrisy displayed in your request for others to have an open mind while you continue to maintain a narrow perspective, reinforced by your own contention that you "know what [you] are talking about", is staggering.

With all due respect, your argument is invalid.

Beating a WDC is tosh on another level too ....

If you dont rate Vettel (who is a 2xWDC) , then basically you are saying is WDC is no biggie
... any tom dick or Vettel can be a WDC okay ! Now if the WDCs is no biggie then How can beating a WDC be any proof of greatness ??

Thats the circle people get themse;lves trapped into when they use selective criteria

Excellent point.

Oh come on, stop it.
HRT is not even a backmarker in the same sense like Minardi was (more like a GP2 running in F1) and TR was far away from still being Minardi in terms of competitiveness.

OK - but people throw Newey name around as if he injects downforce in a chassis , by waving his hands.
No , the car was efficient because of the EBD (and only in Qualy where they could afford it ) , it was Seb , the team and other factors who eked out 11 wins in the races out of it.

Conclusion - In 2008 , borrowed Newey chassis for the Torro Rosso with no updates , no EBD and poorer pitwall and pitstop teams and combined with less skilled drivers (coz of less exp) , 2008 Monza could be considered as a backmarker winning ...

But we know the forum wisdom - whenever Vettel wins , its the car and the magic chassis - So its all good !

2011 would suggest otherwise. Likewise the end of 2010, some elements of 2009 (awesome season for lewis despite result!) and 2008 suggest Lewis has improved little since 2007.

He got his Mclaren seat because he was quick from the word go. He wasn't just quick, he was only 1-2 tenths slower than the reigning two time champ at the time! Lewis was a MEGA rookie. No other rookie will ever achieve what he has. Jacques and Lewis were special in that respect. Lewis found his form quickly and was leading the title for most of the season!

In 2008 he certainly made a few mistakes he should not have, and even on occasion looked rather... so-so. He limped over the line to take his title after his rival dominated the race.

In 2009 he got every bit of the car's performance and used it! He used the Mclarens low speed grip to amazing effect and arguably out performed drivers in better cars! Still he made errors you would not expect from a driver of his ability. Monaco is the big one for me, and of course Monza. But Monaco was a killer mistake and I have never before, or even since been so disappointed in him. It was a race where he had the chance to show the world just how mega he could be. Instead he stuffed it in the wall and we were left to wonder.

2010. Epic start and mid season. He again got the max out of the car 100% of the time. Then once again in classic Lewis style, he lost it when it mattered the most.

2011. What do you want me to say about this season? It was perhaps his worst in F1.

2012. Similar to 2010 IMO. Getting 100% out of the car 100% of the time... so far.

Let me put it this way. I do not believe it is possible for Lewis to improve in terms of pace or ability. I believe he has NOT improved his race craft, or ability to read a race or even read a season. I think he is rash with decisions and sometimes shows to be a little too eager. He needs to learn when to stop, and when he has lost.

Ultimately this is going to come down to you, proving to me that he has improved. Based on your idea, Rubens should have been the best F1 driver ever. DC should have got better rather than turn to sh*t. And Jenson should be blitzing Lewis.

What seems to hurt Lewis is that we have Vettel who seems to learn from his mistakes and be a better driver because of it. With Vettel, Lewis can not rely on his talent or pure speed because Vettel is as quick, if not quicker. When was the last time Vettel was involved in a tangle with another driver? Or even when he made a mistake in qualifying or a race? I can't remember so it would be great if you could tell me?

You can't get do a season getting 100% out of the car 100% of the time. Take 2010 example, he had to rag that car to the edge, thats why in middle of the season he made to 2 misjudgements 2 races in a row, Italy and Singapore - he had to be opportunistic as thats what get him there in the first place.
I don't think you go on improving forever in sport as you age as sportsmen/humans have their peak. For F1 I'd say its around age 31, after this you won't gain anymore from your experiance.
As for Vettel, its been too easy for him when he has such a rocketship of a car. You can't separate his abilities from that of his car. With a dominant car you can easily give the perception of absolutely thrashing the field.

One thing that has never helped Hamilton in this regard is that even for a half a season he's never been fortunate enough to take it easy and rackup wins the easy way, and that goes a long way to ones perception of a driver.
Vettel is quick but how quick? is it the car? It's 4-4 this year in quali between him and webber. And in 2010 it needed the #1 driver love and support from Dr Marko, Horner and Newey to hug him and take off parts off webbers car and put it on his. How much is that support worth? That arrangement was everything for Schumacher and Alonso. Again Hamilton hasn't had this luxury, he has had to graft it the hard way with 2 world championship teamates. Schumacher, Alonso, Vettel never had world championship teamates to beat in the same car.

Vettel was in front because of Webber's usually bad starts or strategy mistakes(Malaysia, Spain), otherwise in the first 6 races Webber was faster, apart from Bahrain of course.
I understend that it's frustrating for you to see so much people, including Hamilton and Alonso trying to diminish Vettel's achivements, but you have to blame only Vettel, for his quite poor show when the car was not dominant and so planted as it's today.
On the other hand, it's poor show for some Alonso fanboys with this constant trolling about Newey and car. No driver won a WDC, by himself. It's a team sport.

Otherwise, can't understand Vettel's fans saying Seb was poor today, because all drivers made mistakes in Q3. It seems this track is certainly not easy to drive.

It should be much more frustrating for other fans to see how a young driver is kicking the Lewis and Alonso asses since 2010. And even much more for Lewis and Alonso. That´s why I doesn´t care about what they say.

Learn this, mate:

"When a true genius appears in this world, you may know him by this sign: that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." (J.Swift)
After 2008 win at Monza, Seb was a diamond, praised by all of the people in F1, the rookie of the year, the future... in the moment this "future" become "present"... Alonso and Lewis lost their "status" and records and inmediatly were frustrated. Its a common thing in sports and we have seen many times, there will be always one driver/sportman better than you. Always. And it will happen to Seb someday.

Wait 2 or 3 seasons without Vettel defeats and we will see a lot of people (including drivers) prasing him again.;)

Mark has to do with that Terrible start for two races, or more, while his title chance is on the tight rope. In what way could Red Bull leave the electric fault as it is?

Besides How strange that all of us, including us, tend to believe that Red Bull got One Weak spot that is Monza? With the knowledge and skill of Newey it should have been possible that the car runs at mush higher speed? It may well be completely irrelevant but in 2008 Vettel won there in his STR!

The whole team was busy fixing the front wing that flexes well and pass the FIA test. It should have required full energy of the team.

Actually MW had the second highest top speed, and the second fastest lap. And also had some very fast sector times.

I really don't understand the starting issues ... I cannot do it at the moment, but by looking at the various starts, then perhaps common traits might be worked out. it would be sad for the team to loose both championships, because they have not worked out starting. They have started well before though. Perhaps there is a correlation between high speed circuits, and poor starts for RBR? Both Spa and Monza are such circuits, and the RBRs have started poorly in both. Although in Spa, Webber knew he had a problem before the start, but the team's advice made his start even worse. Who knows???

About Singapore, the major players should be McLaren, RBR, Ferrari and logically Renault. All the changes for Monza won't count, as it is a unique circuit, and one that is the highest full power circuit, at 70%. The upgrades that come to Singapore are the ones that matter, and none of the big teams are telling us about them, although Renault said they'd be introducing changes and expected themselves to be right up there. RBR have said they have a few changes (Newey said so) but Newey also said that the formula is mature now, and hence changes did not make the big differences that they did last year. McLaren have said they'll be bringing changes to every race, and hence those changes would more more often than RBR's, due to McLaren's greater resources.

RBR though have had a history of bringing out changes that work immediately well, and the next race, work super well. The other teams haven't been like that, except perhaps Renault. That RBR used aero paint on both cars, was very curious to me. I wondered whether they were testing for Monza, or was it to do with Singapore? I have know way of knowing ... if it was for Singapore though, then that would indicate to me, that Newey might have another good idea. He's done that before, hasn't he ...

So I think we will not know, until Saturday week, around about Q3! I don't have enough real information to know anything. Except for the engine status, which favour Hamilton most now, with Webber and Button even, Vettel behind and Alonso is facing a penalty before the season ends.