Search Results

What is it exactly about his cars that enable them to go so fast in wet conditions? We've seen this since 2007, where Vettel and Webber and even Liuzzi were able to put the Red Bulls and Toro Rossos to good use in the rain. In 2008, it was again obvious, particularly at Monza where there were 3 Newey-designed cars on the first 2 rows after qualifying. And now AGAIN, with all new cars, the Red Bulls look to be even more stellar than before, and the Toro Rossos were going good as well.

I had been assuming that the diffuser-three would be the stars of the wet weather conditions as they'd naturally have a downforce advantage, especially at the rear where getting the power down is crucial in the wet. But Toyota wasn't all that special, Williams weren't either, and most surprisingly, the kings of 2009, BrawnGP weren't even able to keep up.

Button mentioned trouble keeping heat in the tires, and this is what I'm thinking is their problem. Its seems as if BrawnGP's biggest advantage is their race pace, and maybe they aren't so hot in cooler conditions and in heating up their tires, kinda like how Ferrari were last year? Is it that simple? Would this also mean that the Newey cars, while good in qualifying or the wet, will be less stellar in normal race conditions over longer stints?

This. Also, Vettel would never have won that race if the weekend had stayed dry. I also doubt he would have won if Hamilton had qualified himself well into Q3.

 

Absolutely, as to Hamilton. It's become a bit lost to memory that he had a couple of duff weekends in the last third of the 2008 season, and Monza was one of them.

 

F1 is and should be a cutthroat business and if a driver have 2 seasons and fail to deliver his employer, then I do not see any reason to find the driver being treated unfairly. I would actually want a lot more drivers dropped, since as someone posted above there are hundreds of drivers equally talented as the bottom half of the current grid.

 

Di Resta - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat. 

Sutil       - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat.

Massa    - We know how good he used to be, he is not anymore and there is no reason for a team to take a chance on him.

Chiton     - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat.   

Van der Garde - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat.

 

Agreed, especially the cut-throat approach. Apparently that was Newey's argument for getting rid of Buemi and Alguersuari. I wouldn't retain any of the drivers you named but would differ with you only in arguing that Massa was always overrated. My recent watch-through of the season 2008 suggests he was as error-prone then as he is now and only got into a position to win a WDC through Hamilton's mistakes (including Hamilton's ruining of Raikkonen's race at Canada).

 

Also enjoyed the (intentional?) misspelling of Chilton. The amended version is an accurate summary of his skills.

Try reading the articles on the Red Bull program in the last issue of Autosport, they're very illuminating. Takeaway from them for me were: 1). It was Newey's idea, not Marko's, to sack both STR drivers after 2011, as it was clear by then that neither would ever be promoted to RBR; 2). They look for flaws in a driver's approach, try to pound them out, and cut bait if they can't; 3). They demand total commitment from the drivers in the program; and 4). They're not looking for guys who can win at STR, they're looking for guys who can win at RBR.

 

Seems clear that Alguersuari likely fell short in the commitment department, and didn't impress much on the track either. At the time I too thought they gave up on him way early but Jamie post-sacking does seem more interested in the DJ biz than in resurrecting his F1 career. 

 

As to point 4 and the myth that the STR guys needed to win at STR to be considered for promotion, remember that Vettel's promotion to RBR was announced in 2008 during the run-up to Hockenheim, long before the race at Monza. His win at Monza was a very nice bonus but didn't change his career trajectory.

Aww come on. Just because his cars didn't have a shot at WDC those years doesn't mean they were slow. In 2002 McLaren was new to Michelin. In 2004 they had some problems with the famous MP4/19. They still won at least one race those years. In 2006 they weren't very good, but hadn't Räikkönen crashed it in Hungary it could have been a winning car too. In 2007 and 2008 nobody seriously expected a winning car considering the competition. Still in Fuji 07 it was very close to victory only to be ruined by Vettel. And in 08 the car won in Monza...

By the way, the MP4/21 is considered a Newey-design, but he wasn't with the team anymore when the season was on.

I believe most other designers would be happy about such a record in their CVs.

The Torro Rosso is also made by the hands of Newey?

Aww come on. Just because his cars didn't have a shot at WDC those years doesn't mean they were slow. In 2002 McLaren was new to Michelin. In 2004 they had some problems with the famous MP4/19. They still won at least one race those years. In 2006 they weren't very good, but hadn't Räikkönen crashed it in Hungary it could have been a winning car too. In 2007 and 2008 nobody seriously expected a winning car considering the competition. Still in Fuji 07 it was very close to victory only to be ruined by Vettel. And in 08 the car won in Monza...

By the way, the MP4/21 is considered a Newey-design, but he wasn't with the team anymore when the season was on.

I believe most other designers would be happy about such a record in their CVs.

Now we are talking semantics. No F1 car is slow, as they all could run rings around any supercar you can find on the street. Regardless, compared to the top contenders of those years, overall the cars of the aforementioned years were slow by F1 standards.

MP4-19 didn't win any races, that was the MP4-19B which was a totally revised new version. MP4-19 was slow.

Ehh... 2002, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008?

Aww come on. Just because his cars didn't have a shot at WDC those years doesn't mean they were slow. In 2002 McLaren was new to Michelin. In 2004 they had some problems with the famous MP4/19. They still won at least one race those years. In 2006 they weren't very good, but hadn't Räikkönen crashed it in Hungary it could have been a winning car too. In 2007 and 2008 nobody seriously expected a winning car considering the competition. Still in Fuji 07 it was very close to victory only to be ruined by Vettel. And in 08 the car won in Monza...

By the way, the MP4/21 is considered a Newey-design, but he wasn't with the team anymore when the season was on.

I believe most other designers would be happy about such a record in their CVs.

Eh, I think Ricciardo could make something of it. He seems to be on the edge of a great result every so often, only to be struck by a strategy failure.

Vettel benefited in the final year that they could share designs between constructors, his win in 2008 was very much aided by the Newey inspired elements that came down from the parent team to the 2008 car. Remember that Bourdais also good showings in that car, and qualified 4th in Monza.

Once that design link was gone Toro Rosso hasn't really been in a position to do much more than be lower midfield, which is a hard place to impress from. Attrition is well down on years passed, so podiums are nigh on impossible for a team of that caliber. Dan has already matched the best Jamie A. could do, a 7th.

As for the other drivers:

- Liuzzi was like a Zonta or Piquet Jr., he won at the GP2 level but was too crash prone and mentally weak to last long in F1. His poor showing against Sutil wasted that good opportunity in what was a half decent car.

- Speed never had much hope at all. Also had an attitude issue.

- Bourdais was beaten heavily by Vettel. On his own, I rate him higher than Luizzi, but Buemi was obviously a better choice and had more points before Bourdais was dumped.

- Buemi has moved into a testing role so he must have some value. I think he would make a fine #2 driver.

- Jamie A. was the only real failure of the system. I think he had the edge over Buemi in 2011, yet he was dumped unceremoniously. Sadly we saw the much more capable Kobayashi and Glock leave the series a year later due to budget constraints, so maybe he was just an indicator of what was to come. Jamie was obviously more capable than say Gutierrez.

I think that overall, the RBR young driver program kind of gave too much time to inadequate drivers like Liuzzi in the early years and then developed unreasonable expectations by the time it came around to Jamie A. If anything, I think they would have had the best Webber replacement in Alguersuari had they kept him on for 2012.

RBR does not need a clash of the titans between Vettel and Raikkonen, McLaren in 2007 showed what a problem that can cause.

Hamilton - Lewis obviously has plenty of brilliant seasons under his belt, and his clean 2015 deserves a mention too, but I feel his 2017 with a difficult Mercedes is criminally underrated. Lewis went wheel to wheel with his main rival Vettel three or four times, and came out the winner each one of them. Masterful at avoiding incidents, I feel he wasn't as complete a driver in 2012 or 2010. 

Bottas - For me his 2014 pips 2016 and 2017. His mid-season cool-headedness and podium streak was something to behold. 

Vettel - 2011 and 2015 deserve a honourable mention, but Seb's 2013 was absolutely relentless. Say whatever you like about Newey-mobiles and blah blah, but people forget Webber was absolutely nowhere near Seb that year. 

Raikkonen - 2005 slightly pips out 2003 and 2007 because of his team-mate; especially in quali-trim, Kimi was the scary monster I was expecting JPM to be. Who can forget those quali laps at Monaco and Monza?

Ricciardo - it's often overlooked how good his 2016 was, but 2014 he was a revelation. Whenever Mercedes dropped the ball, Danny Ric was there to collect it. Not to mention his exciting overtaking form. 

Verstappen - 2017 was ridden with unluck, yet it didn't impact Max's form and he truly got rewarded end-season, remembering especially the great drive at Sepang. 

Hulkenberg - the German's got a tendency to put together brilliant half-seasons and be a bit inconsistent on the other half; end of 2012 and 2013, start of 2014, end of 2016, versus the less impressive other halves... But I would rate Nico's 2017 the best overall: entering the year, I think Renault was complete shambles (as demonstrated by Palmer's struggles) and it looked like it was the Hulk himself that was carrying the team from the bottom of the midfield back to the top of it. 

Sainz - been relatively consistent over his career really, but for me 2016 would stand out of the bunch

Grosjean - Romain has always been an up and down driver depending on his brakes - sometimes producing amazing drives into top places with cars that don't belong, sometimes looking like a complete idiot. 2015 was probably the season with the biggest ratio for the former instead of the latter, with the Spa podium as a particular highlight. 

Magnussen - similarly to his team-mate, Kevin is a bit of an up-and-down driver, sometimes truly struggling with a Jolyon Palmer. But his 2018 has been more of the former. 

Ocon - he's beating Perez with more of a regularity than last year. So, 2018.

Perez - hard to choose between the surprisingly mature, high-peaking 2012, and the clean and consistent 2016 that saw his team-mate Hulk leave Force India with his stock well lower than it had been - but I would lean for the latter if pressed. 

Alonso - I'm not as convinced about 2012 as everybody else seems to be (for me it had something to do with Massa being in the wrong place mentally as well); for me Fred's 2006 was even more impressive; going into a true one on one battle with the beast still relatively fresh-faced, and coming out as the winner. But you still have to honourably mention his giant-punching 2008 and 2009 with terrible cars, 2013 and 2014, 2016...

Vandoorne - I mean, 2017 was not that bad. About what you'd have expected from a rookie entering a McLaren team, with Alonso having had a bit of time to build it around himself.

Gasly and Hartley - well duhh... They are both driving better in 2018 than last year, no?   

Ericsson - has looked like he gets a little bit better every year, up until around Baku this year that is. So I'm going with 2017 and potentially ending Wehrlein's prospective F1 career by looking essentially not significantly weaker than him. 

Stroll - had streaks of form in 2017 where he looked like he truly belongs, especially at the end of the European tour. However, when he couldn't find the pace then he truly could not find the pace - hence, it's hard to assess whether him not performing this year is entirely due to the car, or due to him and Sirotkin being unable to hook it up without the experience of Felipe...

Hamilton - Lewis obviously has plenty of brilliant seasons under his belt, and his clean 2015 deserves a mention too, but I feel his 2017 with a difficult Mercedes is criminally underrated. Lewis went wheel to wheel with his main rival Vettel three or four times, and came out the winner each one of them. Masterful at avoiding incidents, I feel he wasn't as complete a driver in 2012 or 2010. 

Bottas - For me his 2014 pips 2016 and 2017. His mid-season cool-headedness and podium streak was something to behold. 

Vettel - 2011 and 2015 deserve a honourable mention, but Seb's 2013 was absolutely relentless. Say whatever you like about Newey-mobiles and blah blah, but people forget Webber was absolutely nowhere near Seb that year. 

Raikkonen - 2005 slightly pips out 2003 and 2007 because of his team-mate; especially in quali-trim, Kimi was the scary monster I was expecting JPM to be. Who can forget those quali laps at Monaco and Monza?

Ricciardo - it's often overlooked how good his 2016 was, but 2014 he was a revelation. Whenever Mercedes dropped the ball, Danny Ric was there to collect it. Not to mention his exciting overtaking form. 

Verstappen - 2017 was ridden with unluck, yet it didn't impact Max's form and he truly got rewarded end-season, remembering especially the great drive at Sepang. 

Hulkenberg - the German's got a tendency to put together brilliant half-seasons and be a bit inconsistent on the other half; end of 2012 and 2013, start of 2014, end of 2016, versus the less impressive other halves... But I would rate Nico's 2017 the best overall: entering the year, I think Renault was complete shambles (as demonstrated by Palmer's struggles) and it looked like it was the Hulk himself that was carrying the team from the bottom of the midfield back to the top of it. 

Sainz - been relatively consistent over his career really, but for me 2016 would stand out of the bunch

Grosjean - Romain has always been an up and down driver depending on his brakes - sometimes producing amazing drives into top places with cars that don't belong, sometimes looking like a complete idiot. 2015 was probably the season with the biggest ratio for the former instead of the latter, with the Spa podium as a particular highlight. 

Magnussen - similarly to his team-mate, Kevin is a bit of an up-and-down driver, sometimes truly struggling with a Jolyon Palmer. But his 2018 has been more of the former. 

Ocon - he's beating Perez with more of a regularity than last year. So, 2018.

Perez - hard to choose between the surprisingly mature, high-peaking 2012, and the clean and consistent 2016 that saw his team-mate Hulk leave Force India with his stock well lower than it had been - but I would lean for the latter if pressed. 

Alonso - I'm not as convinced about 2012 as everybody else seems to be (for me it had something to do with Massa being in the wrong place mentally as well); for me Fred's 2006 was even more impressive; going into a true one on one battle with the beast still relatively fresh-faced, and coming out as the winner. But you still have to honourably mention his giant-punching 2008 and 2009 with terrible cars, 2013 and 2014, 2016...

Vandoorne - I mean, 2017 was not that bad. About what you'd have expected from a rookie entering a McLaren team, with Alonso having had a bit of time to build it around himself.

Gasly and Hartley - well duhh... They are both driving better in 2018 than last year, no? 

Ericsson - has looked like he gets a little bit better every year, up until around Baku this year that is. So I'm going with 2017 and potentially ending Wehrlein's prospective F1 career by looking essentially not significantly weaker than him. 

Stroll - had streaks of form in 2017 where he looked like he truly belongs, especially at the end of the European tour. However, when he couldn't find the pace then he truly could not find the pace - hence, it's hard to assess whether him not performing this year is entirely due to the car, or due to him and Sirotkin being unable to hook it up without the experience of Felipe...

Just a couple of things i'd like to touch on:

 

(1) "I feel he wasn't as complete a driver in 2012 or 2010"

 

Irrespective of how "complete" or "incomplete" one considers Hamilton in 2012,  his on track performance was near flawless. Perhaps "twittergate" was the only real blot against him that year.  Otherwise, with a car  that was often breaking down, combined with a pitwall in total chaos, he maintained a high level.

 

(2) "I feel his 2017 with a difficult Mercedes is criminally underrated".

 

 

Agreed.

 

While W08 was often fastest over 1 lap, higher top speed, the SF70H  was often  more "stable" in race trim. I'm gonna say it, but there is even a large body of professional opinion that think Ferrari had the better car in 2017.

 

 Hamilton, again, was largely error free & consistent ( he had a couple of subpar weekends, like Russia, but to be fair,so did everyone else).

 

This is certainly an impressive list of F1 machines and an even more impressive list of victories. Having said this, I'd argue his record is even more impressive if you consider the 2007-2009 Toro Rosso cars to be Adrian Newey designs. If you include the STR2, STR3 and STR4, then Vettel's win at Monza in 2008 in the STR3 (I believe based on the same design as the RB4) not only adds yet another victory to this tally but also means that only three Newey designs from 1991 onwards have failed to win a grand prix (MP4/21, RB3/STR2 and RB11). Also, I think McLaren won 7 races in 2000 (4 for Mika Hakkinen and 3 for David Coulthard).

I find it interesting that he seemed to experience something of a lean spell in the mid-to-late 2000s, in the seven seasons from 2002 to 2008 his cars scored just five wins in this period if you exclude the MP4/20 (the 2005 McLaren won twice as many races as his other designs from those seasons put together). I do wonder whether McLaren benefitted from the single tyre rule in 2005, even more so than the other Michelin teams such as Renault, as they did much better that season than they did in either 2004 or 2006, with the exact opposite being true for Bridgestone-shod Ferrari. It's ironic that the only other Newey car from 2002 to 2008 to win multiple GPs was the MP4/17D in 2003, which was only used that season due to the issues with the MP4/18, yet Kimi Raikkonen was able to finish just two points short of Michael Schumacher in it.

2005 McLaren for sure benefitted from single tyre rule/Michelins. Back then Michelin did bring different kind of tyres for the teams to the tests and teams could choose the best suited tyres for them to use (said by Kimi, last year).
At Monaco 2005 Mclaren was able to use softer tyres than Renault, due to them being gentle to the tyres and we all know Kimi being one of the most gentle driver to the tyres as well.

Bizarre to think that his first race win in F1 was 1991, an astounding 30 years ago, his longevity far surpasses any tech director in the sports history and his car is still fighting for a title this year. Imagine if a designer from 1950 was leading the title fight in 1980! it's  mind numbing. It also answers the 90's favourite debate of Newey Vs Shuey rather decisively.

 

Almost more amazing is that in 30 years of racing his cars have only gone 4 seasons without a race win and 2 of those were spent building Red Bull up from the back of the grid.

 

 

This is certainly an impressive list of F1 machines and an even more impressive list of victories. Having said this, I'd argue his record is even more impressive if you consider the 2007-2009 Toro Rosso cars to be Adrian Newey designs. If you include the STR2, STR3 and STR4, then Vettel's win at Monza in 2008 in the STR3 (I believe based on the same design as the RB4) not only adds yet another victory to this tally but also means that only three Newey designs from 1991 onwards have failed to win a grand prix (MP4/21, RB3/STR2 and RB11). Also, I think McLaren won 7 races in 2000 (4 for Mika Hakkinen and 3 for David Coulthard).

 

I find it interesting that he seemed to experience something of a lean spell in the mid-to-late 2000s, in the seven seasons from 2002 to 2008 his cars scored just five wins in this period if you exclude the MP4/20 (the 2005 McLaren won twice as many races as his other designs from those seasons put together). I do wonder whether McLaren benefitted from the single tyre rule in 2005, even more so than the other Michelin teams such as Renault, as they did much better that season than they did in either 2004 or 2006, with the exact opposite being true for Bridgestone-shod Ferrari. It's ironic that the only other Newey car from 2002 to 2008 to win multiple GPs was the MP4/17D in 2003, which was only used that season due to the issues with the MP4/18, yet Kimi Raikkonen was able to finish just two points short of Michael Schumacher in it.

i hv no idea why hamilton is labeled as fastest driver when he has been driving a winning car all the time?? With such error prone, and inconsistency, i rather opt for Alonso + Kimi or kimi+vettel !!

raikkonen is literally the only "good driver" to not win a title with Newey.

On the other hand Hamilton has been getting screwed over by his RE and TP for the last few years. Plus he is a lot more consistently fast than raikonen.

unsettled by massa?? rather kimi was having a tough year in 2008 when a few of his wins results in unfortunate event!! Canada, France, Belgium~~~

Canada - some wooden eye crash into him from the pitlane

France - exhaust pipe failure

SPa- raining on last lap, wrong tyre, no grip = crash

There were A LOT more races where raikkonen was complete garbage - Australia, Turkey, Monza, Singapore (that was hilariously bad), Hockenheim, Monaco, etc.

Looking at this as objectively as I can Vettel simply hasn't adjusted to the current regs. He is a top driver, no doubt, but then again so are most of the grid.

In my opinion he isn't a great yet though. Had he won championships with two teams, through different regs, or regularly competed at the sharp end in machinery that didn't deserve it, I'd change my mind.

Make no mistake the Red Bull in 2014 is a great car. Riciardo is proving that. And he's beating Vettel without much difficulty it appears.

I hypothesise that perhaps Vettel cannot compete against the current grid without the exhaust trickery that Newey produced.

And don't throw Monza 2008 at me...

Looking at this as objectively as I can Vettel simply hasn't adjusted to the current regs. He is a top driver, no doubt, but then again so are most of the grid.

In my opinion he isn't a great yet though. Had he won championships with two teams, through different regs, or regularly competed at the sharp end in machinery that didn't deserve it, I'd change my mind.

Make no mistake the Red Bull in 2014 is a great car. Riciardo is proving that. And he's beating Vettel without much difficulty it appears.

I hypothesise that perhaps Vettel cannot compete against the current grid without the exhaust trickery that Newey produced.

And don't throw Monza 2008 at me...

 

 

The only thing I'll throw at you is that it is way too early to judge. So far their best result has come from Vettel.

The honor will go to Vettel after this season. Back-to-back WDC, younger than Alonso and more wins/poles than Alonso (at similar ages). There's no way it isn't Vettel.

Well, Vettel is a super driver, no doubt, but I still miss from him some super drive in difficult conditions (in fact, Monza 2008 was almost hi best win). All his victories came after getting the pole and driving the best of all cars. 12 out of his 16 victories are from pole (14 of 26 in Alonso's case). Only time will tell, Vettel is to me a fantastic driver lucky to be in the right place (as Button was lucky in 2009 of having a Brawn). I think we all know that luck is part of this sport. And in that sense, I think Alonso never had that luck, because he never had a dominant car (in 2005 the McLaren was faster almost everywhere, and in 2006 the Ferrari-Bridgestone was quite faster for 2/3 of the year). So having that in scope, I think Alonso is the man of the current era because he could be there is extremely variant conditions (different teams, different rules, different tires...).

Vettel records are to me some statistical anecdote, equaly as Schumacher is topping all tables in stats but Senna is still remembered as the best one.

PD: I would say that currently, recent championships are remembered as the "Red Bull - Newey" dominance most than Vettel's dominance...

I declare that Vettel is the quickest driver because he still extracted more from the RB6 compared to his teammate and remember during the summer the German driver raced with a damaged chassis which allowed Webber to be quicker and win. Also he is achieving numbers only reached by the greats of this sport. How good he is will take time to assess but out of all the top drivers he is still the least experienced.

For me the inkling we had just how good he was, was at Monza in 2008. The greatest qualifying performance for me since Schumacher was Q3 at Suzuka 2009. Phenomenal. I share Bernie's idea of the current f1 dream team: Alonso and Vettel. of course it would be an impossible sitation for any team

relax, man. i didn`t react at your previous posts, but now it`s too much.
tell me, please, how you rank bourdais performance in the other torro rosso, with more fuel on board, that day. i remind you the guy was 4th on the grid.
don`t you think that this might have had something in common with some adrien newey`s participation in upgrading 2008 torro rosso cars, that were, by the way, very quick in wet conditions even without it?

now, after 2010 rbr title saga, i`m sure that it was also pr project to back in the second half of 2008 torro rosso instead of rb main team with 2, let`s say, "retired" drivers in order to promote the young gun, "baby schumi", to elevate the selling numbers of some energy drink.
who is better advertising platform vettel or maybe webber?
the answer is easy.

and this talk about broken chasis is just pathetic, vettel admited he had had problems with throttle operating until some changes were made in engine electronics.
that`s right, he was fractionaly faster, mainly in qualifying, but he also enjoyed last run advantage most of the time, you must admit. and we all know qualifying is all today,.
so i would recommend you to wait a while with comparing him to senna.

You honestly believe the TR was the absolute best car in 2008? Dream on sunshine.

As we have seen with the Red Bull cars (and Newey cars in general) they tend to be very good in the wet- they occupied pole and the second row of the grid at Monza that year. Vettel most definitley showed up the big sister team that day and displayed maturity beyond his years, but it's worth noting that Bourdais laptimes were comparable with his teammate during that race. A possible one-two lost due to a technical glitch on the grid.

The consolation thread is hardly more than a collection of excuses for the Webber fans and an opportunity to invent more conspiracy theories for those with more lively imagination. But the game can be played from both sides. I was prepared to give Mark Webber credit as a WDC if he had pulled it off in the the last round. He didn't and so this story was never written. Instead we wade through an ocean of self illusion which I'm not prepared to support. After a brief lip service to the man who beat their hero convincingly in the same equipment the Webber supporters fill pages after pages with their grief and crying. It needs a bit of counter balancing.

Could you clarify what you mean by "support"? He said himself he had equal equipment and he obviously had the support of his side of the garage. What more does he want? A cookie perhaps? He did a very good job this season, but he went about it the totally the wrong from the mental angle, especially near the end.

This Mark Webber against Red Bull charade was annoying like hell. Don't drive for the team if you don't like what you get.

It was never in Red Bull's interest to sabotage Webber and I'm sure there was never any intent to do that. They wanted the WCC after all. But Webber was right when he said his form in 2010 was an inconvenience to the team. And he certainly didn't get the support you'd normally see a team give a driver substantially in front of his team-mate with two races to go. No not team orders. I mean things like the last run in quali in Brazil or Abu Dhabi. Things like Horner coming out prior to Brazil and announcing the team will be built around Vettel in 2011 - I mean, what was the point of that? Way to make Webber feel on the outs. Dreadful timing. And then post-Korea having Gerhard Berger (close friend of DM) in an interview from Red Bull's Hangar 7 saying some spectacularly nasty things without anything to back it up. So much of the tension between SV and MW felt unnecessary and was a product of poor management IMO. It worked out for them in the end, but I'm not convinced they needed to make it so hard for themselves, or make Webber feel so isolated.

Webber was the one who was having his one man war against Red Bull while they were constantly saying that he got equal equipment and opportunity. It was very annoying for Vettel fans to have his reputation constantly smeared by the Webber PR machine. Gerhard is a great supporter of Sebastian's talent and gave him the car for his first victory in Monza 2008. Webber and DC were having by far more resources and were getting all the technical support from Adrian Newey months earlier than Toro Rosso. They could not match Vettel who beat them to glory by his talent and pace. Gerhard only told it as it was. Webber did not brake and knowingly allowed his car to become a hazard to the runners behind him. It is called "causing an avoidable collision" by the code.

Webber had the equipment and opportunity to become world champion... Whether Horner baked Webber cakes and Marko gave him backrubs is completely and utterly irrelevant. They gave him the car to go out to fight for a WDC. And they allowed him to do it. If they didn't want Webber in the WDC running, trust me they had 1 million ways to stop him without you or me ever being none the wiser. And consolation isn't synonymous with blaming everybody else. Consolation is comfort after disappointment. I fail to see why blaming everybody else is comfort.

well said

"It was a big day and we had the chance to do something incredibly unique, but in the end it didn't turn out for us."
Hard to feel sorry for Webber when he goes and says that. "Didn't turn out for us". Talk about sepparating yourself from the team...winning the WDC/WCC isn't enough? Oh wait, I guess he wanted personal glory...At least cranky pants didn't moan about being a "#2 driver". What a choke end to the season, just exemplifies how some drivers will never have a WDC mentality...

+1 Webber had it in his own hands to put a #1 on his car. He didn't and so he will have #2 next year.

I felt a bit of a disappointment that Dietrich Mateschitz did not go on the podium. He did great this season and all the years before. Unfortunately he is a very shy man when it comes to public appearances. He never goes on television if he can avoid it and he probably decided to send Helmut Marko instead. It was a fitting replacement as Marko had represented him for many seasons in F1. I'm sure most people around the world understood the gesture by the team towards their Austrian ownership.

Ok, now to the consolation bit. Mark Webber came back well from his injuries in 2008 which must have influenced his form in 2009. He drove a couple of good races and was often close to the pace which allowed him to pick up when one of the other contenders dropped the ball. He showed his experience in the qualifying under changing conditions such as Malaysia where he pulled out a 1.4 s lead and Spa. He also fully utilized his experience in Silverstone where he drove with a cool head and a hard hand. He generally used his great luck and the machinery he got to maximize his points. He deserved to be in the title race down to the wire and the place he got.

Christian Horner

 

 

The 46-year-old Englishman has transformed a modest group center team into a team capable of dominating F1 for four years, becoming a permanent part of the sport's elite

The 'Red Bull phenomenon' is and remains one of the most particular events in the entire history of Formula 1. A team sponsored by an energy drink brand that not only wins in a few years (that was also successful at Benetton, more brand certainly not motorsport) but it is permanently positioned at the top, becoming one of the reference points of world motorsport. In 2005, when Dietrich Mateschitz bought the Jaguar F1 to transform it into Red Bull Racing, few could have predicted that the boy who ran the hut, Christian Horner , a 32-year-old with good hopes who in 1997 had founded an F3000 team, would have just become 10 years later one of the most successful managers in F1 history.

 

Thinking about it, Horner's story is perfect for a team like Red Bull. Young, ambitious and intelligent, the Englishman began his motorsport career at 19 as a driver. It achieves good results in Formula Renault, Formula 3 and F3000. The turning point of his life, however, came in 1997, when he created Arden International, just 24 years old, to race in the F3000. This is the context in which he comes into contact with Helmut Marko , former pilot owner of the RSM Marko, a team that in 1999 will become Red Bull Junior Team. Horner takes little to understand that he is worth more as a manager than as a pilot and in a few years he hangs his helmet on the nail. From behind a desk he transforms Arden into one of the teams to beat, tightening relationships with Marko more and revealing an exceptionaltalent scout .

 

When the powerful Austrian brand decides to implement the big leap, the choice is quickly made: Horner becomes team principal, Marko a sort of special consultant. Purists don't like the idea and mock the new team, but Mateschitz, Marko and Horner have the long run vision. Year after year Red Bull grows. The first points arrived (fourth place with David Coulthard in the first ever race, in Australia in 2005), then the first podiums (always the Scotsman in Monaco in 2006). Then, above all, the best designer out there comes to the tune of millions: Adrian Newey . In 2006, a satellite stable, the Toro Rosso, also emerged from the ashes of Minardi. Paradoxically, in 2008 it found the victory before the 'parent company', with Sebastian Vettelin Monza. Just the young German becomes the emblem of the functionality of the Red Bull nursery. The eyes of Horner and Marko and the huge amount of money available allow Red Bull to create an Academy.

 

Horner uses the regulatory change of 2009 to bring the team closer to the top and with the Vettel-Webber duoin the car the successes begin to arrive. Since 2010, Red Bull has simply been the car to beat. The English manager, at 37, finds himself managing a very young team that plays world titles against giants such as Ferrari and McLaren and which, moreover, has two drivers who do not collaborate. Here is perhaps the main masterpiece of Horner, who despite some spectacular accident (Turkey 2010) manages to manage the relationship between Vettel and Webber keeping both in contention for the world championship. The failure to exchange positions between the two in Brazil, which could have brought the Australian to -1 from Fernando Alonso in view of the last race, is derided by everyone. But in the end, with a little luck, he's right. Sebastian Vettel, the 'designated' driver, wins the world championship in Abu Dhabi, after the cruel and ingenious 'love' pulled by the unaware Webber.

 

The rest is history. After the golden four-year period 2010-2013, Red Bull tries to adapt to the new regulations by starting from the young: Daniel Ricciardo spodesta Vettel, who emigrates to Ferrari. Then comes Max Verstappen , also a future designated champion, around which Horner and Marko build the team and for which they venture a move that is currently paying off: abandoning Renault engines in order to have a dedicated manufacturer, Honda. In conclusion, the numbers remain. Since Horner and Red Bull are in F1 the team has been the second most successful , behind only Mercedes. Not bad for the youngest ex-team principal in history and for an energy drink brand.

 

https://www.formulap...rko-474185.html

 

Translated from italian

While I agree with the rest of your post to a large degree, I can't believe the rubbish that is sprouted about Vettel's win in the TR (where fans keep thinking in won in a Minardi which a load of rubbish as well - a Minardi is one that Marques or Yoong or Alonso or Webber drove not a Newey designed car with Ferrari power).

- He won one race with TR (I didn't see him winning any other races)
- That race was perfect conditions for TR, Newey's chassis that year was brilliant in the wet and the Ferrari had greater horsepower than the Renault of the RB (look at them at the bottom of the speed traps)
- BOTH TRs would have outqualified BOTH RBs had Webber not pipped Bourdais late on in qualifying

Taking away nothing from Vettel did what he does best which was lead from the front and stay there but him being a great driver in the TR when the car + weather suited the track at the right time is often overlooked by fans.

It wasn't a Minardi, it was a STRF with Newey input. And Seb made the most of it by beating out the big sister car - Single handedly. The Monza win was icing on the cake - but it was that PLUS the other 25 old school points that got him promoted to the seat at Red Bull. Seb drove a fantastic season in that car, by any standards, and proved he deserved to be in a top car. Not only did RB promote him, Macca thought he was pretty terrific too and tried to get him. So it isn't just crazed fans that saw his 2008 as a great bit of racing.

I don't see him with Alonso/Hamilton which IMO Alonso is the same so he would have no problems with Vettel coming over. Vettel doesn't also have Dr. Marko pulling strings for him like he had at TR and now RB. If he does go over to Ferrari and he beats Alonso then he would be considered a great to me. Out of the younger drivers, Hamilton/Vettel are the natural successors to Alonso which you can see why Ferrari have gone that direction.

What strings is Marko pulling for Seb at RB - and with whom? Why would that have any impact on his going to Ferrari?

It wasn't a Minardi, it was a STRF with Newey input. And Seb made the most of it by beating out the big sister car - Single handedly. The Monza win was icing on the cake - but it was that PLUS the other 25 old school points that got him promoted to the seat at Red Bull. Seb drove a fantastic season in that car, by any standards, and proved he deserved to be in a top car. Not only did RB promote him, Macca thought he was pretty terrific too and tried to get him. So it isn't just crazed fans that saw his 2008 as a great bit of racing.



What strings is Marko pulling for Seb at RB - and with whom? Why would that have any impact on his going to Ferrari?

If you read my post properly I was referring to that win and that win alone. Not the season as a whole as I never mentioned anything else about the season because clearly seb was talented, that was obvious to see and he earned his chance and has grasped it. I have nothing against that so you don't need to be so defensive in your seb love mate.

Bourdais said Marko was like poison in that garage, not to mention Jamie getting an earful from Marko in Korea which lead would have contributed to his sacking and you really think what they say and don't say behind closed doors is going to someone leaked out to the public? There is a whole load of politics behind closed doors whether it be RBR or any other teams just as there is in any organization. Seb has been protected by Marko since the start of the RBDYP, he is less likely to be the golden child if he heads to ferrari and Fernando handily beats him initially.

Sakae, from what I've read the conditions are loosely based where Ferrari are in the constructors championships at a point in time in the 2013 championship as to ensure for Vettel that he will has a decent car underneath him for 2014. Who knows the exact condition. On the other hand if RB do not say for example manage top 3 constructors for next season then Vettel has a get out clause and hence free to speak to Ferrari. However, if RB do hit those targets then I would imagine the option is exercised and Vettel would then have to see out 2014. Much the same IMO a similar scenario to Webber hitting a particular target for him to retain the RB seat for next season.

Renault this year was 4th on WC. with 88 points (and Alonso did 3 podiums before winning)

Toro Rosso was 6th with 39 points !!! (best result before Monza was a 5th of Vettel after start on the grid the 18th!)

I mean YOU CAN´T COMPARE.

Toro Rosso didn't even launch that car until the 6th race up until then Vettel was too busy crashing into people, the chassis was designed by one Adrian Newey and had a Ferrari engine in it (which as Red Bull moaned so much about was more powerful than its Renault counterpart). Looking at the results Vettel was the only driver scoring points in the second half of the season consistently, Bourdais struggled to do the same. With Alonso and Trulli both drivers were picking up points.

There is also the fact that in 2003 the engines weren't as reliable as they were in 2008, picking up more points can be attributed to that along with other drivers being out the race as a result of an accident.

A few things clear after this race. Heikki and the Ferrrari drivers dont deserve there seats. Hard to put into words the incompetence of those drivers today. Kimi started in 14th and was stuck in 14 until the last laps when it dried, just unbeleivable. Ferrari managment getting their just desserts. Massa was just as bad, qualfying 1.3 seconds slower than Vettel with only 3 laps more fuel and out driven all raceJust incompetent.

Great drive from Vettel but its possible he had the best car out there because newey cars are known to be very slippery, and it seems he had a great setup, but he still made the most of it and dominated.

Great fighting drive from Alonso again. He made a great tyre call and embaressed the Ferrari drivers today, and was very quick in the final stages of the race. Highly rated Kubica in a much better car only beat him by 3 seconds today, on a terrible renault track, so he still has a long way to go to be mentioned in the same class as Alonso.

Ferrari better pray for no more rain, their drivers are just no good in the wet. I dont beleive these stories that their car is THAT bad in the wet. Ive never heard of a great car suddenly becoming terrible in the dry. Its mainly just a convenient excuse to cover up their drivers.

Originally posted by primer


There are Minardi crews in that team but resource and car wise they are very different now. While taking nothing away from Vettel you have to accept that the car STR have been gifted is better than anything Minardi made for themselves.

My thoughts also. As much of a fairy tale it is, Minardi never had a Ferrari powered, Adrian Newey designed, british built car.

Superb race from Vettel, incredible performance! Future WDC, no doubt.
Pity for Bourdais, never got a chance to show what he could do. Newey again gets a victory for one of his cars - he hasn't lost his touch.

Great race from Kubica as well, again a podium, in very difficult conditions. He and Alonso were on the right strategy, as they got their stop essentially "free" because everyone else had to change to intermediates, as well.

McLaren lost a major chance to overtake Ferrari in the WCC and take a nice cushion in WDC, with yesterday's blunder. If Hamilton had started around Kova's position, he would have challenged for the win. As it was, nice damage limitation, though some hard driving at times (Webber and especially Glock). Hamilton was superb in his first stint, pity he didn't get the "free" pitstop and his pace on intermediates, after being initially impressive, suddenly dropped - Massa had much the same problem, I think. Due to tyre usage/graining, perhaps? Hamilton really animated the first third of the race though, with a fantastic march through the field that was a pleasure to watch.
Still, Hamilton had a bad weekend overall: harder dry tyres, a wet but drying circuit in the actual qual and race: he should have extended his lead instead of having it reduced to nothing. Soon, Ferrari's favorite conditions (soft tyres, dry weekend, heat) may come back and Spa and Monza were the type of weekend where Hamilton should have taken advantage. Title will be difficult, very much so.

Kovalainen really should have won, and on the podium his body language told it all. He's still not fast enough in the race.

Ferrari similarly lost a good chance to profit maximally from McLaren's mistakes: Massa made little impression and Raikkonen was couldn't keep up with Hamilton's march through the field. Their car may not be that good in those changing conditions.