Should McLaren bring back the MP4-27? [split]

With the pace Perez had in the latter half of the race, they should have been fighting for a podium.

Ehm, it's very much possible to fit a '13-wing onto the old car.
The increased weight isn't something they have to "accommodate", it's the tires themselves weighing more.

Perez stopped later than a lot of people. Look at Button's last stint for how the car looks when on a more typical pitstop window. They finished pretty much exactly where they should have.

Edited by SkorbiF1, 18 March 2013 - 12:27.

With the pace Perez had in the latter half of the race, they should have been fighting for a podium.

Edited by JRizzle86, 18 March 2013 - 13:20.

Already wrote this before.
After their second pitstops, (Lap 24. Almost everyone had pitted within the last three laps, including Jenson and Perez) Perez was 20 sec behind Button. By the lap 54, Perez had already catched Button, 20 seconds in 30 laps! and in this time, his pace was comparable to the top cars (who had also made their stop in the 3 lap window before).

The pace is there, but this weekend, the drivers weren't

I really don't think going back to the 27 will be this magic bullet that will save the season. The car hasn't been developed since November and will take some time for the engineers to go back and re-understand the car to start delivering upgrades. The other teams haven't stood still, and their cars will effectively have a three month head start on the -27, so I suspect McLaren will still be some way behind. They should stick with the -28.

If Gary Anderson is to be believed, the other teams have not made much progress since last year

Already wrote this before.
After their second pitstops, (Lap 24. Almost everyone had pitted within the last three laps, including Jenson and Perez) Perez was 20 sec behind Button. By the lap 54, Perez had already catched Button, 20 seconds in 30 laps! and in this time, his pace was comparable to the top cars (who had also made their stop in the 3 lap window before).

The pace is there, but this weekend, the drivers weren't

Already wrote this before.
After their second pitstops, (Lap 24. Almost everyone had pitted within the last three laps, including Jenson and Perez) Perez was 20 sec behind Button. By the lap 54, Perez had already catched Button, 20 seconds in 30 laps! and in this time, his pace was comparable to the top cars (who had also made their stop in the 3 lap window before).

The pace is there, but this weekend, the drivers weren't

Edited by rileyl, 18 March 2013 - 16:09.

They may not be the best in the business, but they're still good drivers, Button especially.

Edited by Defected, 18 March 2013 - 16:11.

Which brings up another point against bringing back the 27: the 28-ish results Button had with it. He didnt like that car. Brasil was ok, but Austin etc was bad to very bad. McLaren must hate these times.

Potential really stupid question time: the 2013 tyres aren't identical to the 2012 tyres, are they? Also, weren't different compund brought to Melbourne for 2012 as for 2013 (along with temps being different etc)? So is the comparison really all that helpful?

Perez was on a different strategy to everyone else(short-ish stints) and he also had the benefit of clear air for a nice while when his teammate(and the frontrunners at the time) were in traffic.

I can see where you're trying to find some optimism, but the pace really wasn't that good. You also cant look at the times and say the car has pace, but the drivers dont, as its the drivers putting in those times in the first place. If the car really did have pace, they would have finished higher. They may not be the best in the business, but they're still good drivers, Button especially.

From memory, Button didn't have any traffic all race, he had a car behind him but never infront unless he was lapping someone, he was in clear air too, so I don't think 'clear air' is the reason Sergio had a good stint. Then again, I was at the track, and don't really know when who stopped when so I don't know his stints but they were comparable to the rest weren't they? Also, Alonso was in clean air and driving hard to catch kimi, how did Sergio's lap times compare to Fernandos at the same time of the race?

Edited by Mc_Silver, 18 March 2013 - 22:02.

I replayed live timing of the race and saw that Sergio picked up his pace considerably through the end of the race. He was 1 second quicker than Button and caught Button and Grosjean. His times were comparible with the front runners in that stint. Button had some ups and downs. It looks like his tyres grained a bit faster than Sergio's. The difference between Kimi and Romain showed how important set-up is really. He was almost going to be lapped from Kimi who was easily the quickest guy in the race. I think McLaren should analyse every bit of detail before deciding the car is flawed.

From memory, Button didn't have any traffic all race, he had a car behind him but never infront unless he was lapping someone, he was in clear air too, so I don't think 'clear air' is the reason Sergio had a good stint. Then again, I was at the track, and don't really know when who stopped when so I don't know his stints but they were comparable to the rest weren't they? Also, Alonso was in clean air and driving hard to catch kimi, how did Sergio's lap times compare to Fernandos at the same time of the race?

I wonder if this just a case of wrong/not working aero spec, because remember that Jensen and McLaren are fastest during the very 1st day of pre-season testing in Jerez.

Why don't they revert to that spec in Jerez and starting working from that.

Edited by mclarennut, 19 March 2013 - 09:13.

I'm starting to have serious doubts about Button. He was leading the development of the car all winter, so basically the car is built around him. The problem seems to be that the car is OK to drive but it is slow.

IMO he is responsible to some extent for the development of the car, he should have noticed that there is something wrong way earlier and also he should have given better feedback to the team during testing.

lol thats hilarious

But also it seems to reveal that the issue is related to the floor and the "sealing effect" - get it closer and the car sticks. If they can't fix this problem by running the car lower, they've got a lot of work to do to with the wings and floor to get the flow working. This is a major aero job by the sounds of it.

For what it's worth, Scarbs doesn't think it's as simple as a front wing.

Did he elaborate on that?

I'm still puzzling over the cause, its not as simple as a bad front wing

This is wrong on so many levels I hardly know where to start. A little list of things you clearly don't know:

Drivers don't design cars, they give feedback.

Cars are designed on computer, in wind tunnels and using simulators - in all of those the car was reportedly very good.

On track the discrepancies started to show - the driver's job is to understand those and provide feedback, at which Jenson Button is massively experienced and capable.

The drivers DID notice problems.

Your point is?

Edited by Defected, 19 March 2013 - 12:23.

First of all, being ironic doesn't prove you're right. My opinion/point is pretty much the opposite of yours, that Button is not the best on the grid in terms of car understanding and development, which i believe was proven during the 2012 season (canada etc...), that's all

I don't know why they just didn't evolve the 27' for this year in the first place

There is no irony in my post.

Button could be the worst development driver in the history of F1, and there still would not be time to correct the car between Barcelona and now. They do not test the car "all winter" as you said.

My point was not ironic - my point is that I don't think you understand how car development works.

Edited by Defected, 19 March 2013 - 12:40.

I said he was leading the development all winter, which is true as hamilton didn't have access on the 2013 car..., i didn't say they "test" the car all winter. So wether the development is on track or in the simulator or anything other, Button as any other driver would, has influence on the development of the car.

There was nothing wrong with the car in the simulator or in the wind tunnel, but the actual physical car doesn't behave the same. I guess that's Button's fault?

First of all, being ironic doesn't prove you're right. My opinion/point is pretty much the opposite of yours, that Button is not the best on the grid in terms of car understanding and development, which i believe was proven during the 2012 season (canada etc...), that's all

Edited by WitnessX, 19 March 2013 - 15:50.

I don't know why they just didn't evolve the 27' for this year in the first place, it make absolutely no sense to me to build a whole new car when the regulations barely change. It's not like they were midfielders or anything in 2012 either, they were the fastest for most of the season. Whoever made that call must be worried about their job.

Edited by ElDictatore, 21 March 2013 - 08:10.