291 replies to this topic

[Derek Pitt]

On readng the VHRR website in relation to Phillip Island Historic meeting in March, we see the following:

"Two-times Australian Touring Car Champion and perennial Bathurst ‘bridesmaid’ Glenn Seton, will be the Patron of the 2009 Phillip Island Classic Festival of Motorsport from March 13-15, which is being supported by Shannons and the VACC.

Seton, who remains one of only five drivers alongside the late Peter Brock, Dick Johnson, John Bowe and Mark Skaife to have competed in over 200 touring car rounds, will race a BMW M3 in the headline combined Group C & Group A races at the meeting. "

Oh and by the way, Sir Jack Brabham might be there, but he is only a Triple World F1 Champion and a living INTERNATIONAL legend....am I missing something here?

What do these touring car drivers have to do with historic motor racing?

Is Historic Phillip Island to be reduced to an V8 engine reconditioner's paradise?

We currently still have:

Sir Jack Brabham
Tony Gaze
Reg Hunt
Bill Patterson
Frank Matich
Austin Miller
and others

with us

But instead we have the above garbage inflicted upon us.....

It is time for historic enthusuasts to call a stop to this nonsense ..

Local Government has specific Pecuniary Interest Clauses which may apply here.

I am not going to a meeting of historic racing cars which stupidly suggests has an unknown touring car driver is a fitting patron.

In the meantime, those who want to see a change in VHRR, and in its direction, are welcome to email me privately.
dere kPitt

[seldo]

Grow up, and open your eyes to reality Derek. You sound suspiciously like Stan back again under a nom-de-plume.....

[275 GTB-4]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion Derek...however,

Whilst zooming in on the Glen thing...

You overlooked...

Huge entry for Phillip Island Classic M'Sport Festival

A huge entry of more than 560 vehicles has been received for the 2009 Phillip Island Classic Festival of Motorsport from March 13-15, equalling the record attendance of the past two years and cementing the meeting’s place as the major event of its type in the Southern Hemisphere.
Capacity grids in many categories, 18 overseas drivers from six nations and the attendance of iconic figures in Australian motorsport have been confirming following the official close of entries on February 13.

Highlights include an entry of 43 Minis for a special Regularity event marking the 50th anniversary of the ubiquitous ‘brick’, with drivers including, Bob Holden who won the 1966 Gallagher 500 at Bathurst with Rauno Aaltonen in a Mini Cooper S.

A record field of 57 Formula Fords, including four drivers from the UK and four from New Zealand, is chasing 50 grid places to celebrate the 40th anniversary of the category in Australia. More...

Healeys pit stop at Phillip Island on way to Bonneville After a gap of 55 years, big Healeys are set to return to the salt flats of Bonneville in 2009 – via the Phillip Island Classic Festival of Motorsport supported by Shannons and the VACC from March 13-15.

In 1953 the Austin-Healey 100 was new to the motoring world and especially the burgeoning US market. What better way to gain publicity for the car than to set speed records, and what better place than the famed salts flats at Bonneville in Utah? In that year, the Donald Healey Motor Company built a special version of the Austin-Healey 100 sports car with the aim of setting both high speed and endurance records. This Endurance car, looking similar to a standard Austin-Healey 100, was driven by Donald Healey himself, George Eyston, Carroll Shelby, Mort Goodall and Roy Jackson Moore. More....


Glenn Seton is Phillip Island Classic Patron
Two-times Australian Touring Car Champion and perennial Bathurst ‘bridesmaid’ Glenn Seton, will be the Patron of the 2009 Phillip Island Classic Festival of Motorsport from March 13-15, which is being supported by Shannons and the VACC. Seton, who remains one of only five drivers alongside the late Peter Brock, Dick Johnson, John Bowe and Mark Skaife to have competed in over 200 touring car rounds, will race a BMW M3 in the headline combined Group C & Group A races at the meeting.

Celebrate with Elfin

The 50th anniversary celebrations of Australia’s Elfin cars is currently in full swing, with a major display and on-track tribute planned at the Phillip Island Classic race meeting from March 13-15, 2009.

Up to 50 of the unique and charismatic race and road going models originally created by the late Garrie Cooper in his minimalistic workshop in suburban Adelaide will be at the meeting. Meanwhile some of the household racing names who achieved success in his cars will be seen at the wheel of a range of open wheeler and sports car Elfins. More.....

Racing greats at Phillip Island for Formula Ford 40th

Racing greats from Formula One, V8 Supercars and the Carrera Cup will be at the 2009 Phillip Island Classic Historic race meeting from March 13-15 to open the 40th anniversary celebrations of Formula Ford racing in Australia.

Formula Ford began in the UK in 1967, with the first championship in 1968 won by Australia’s Tim Schenken.

The first Australian Formula Ford race was held at Melbourne’s Sandown Raceway in 1969 and was won by Richard Knight in an Elfin 600, a precursor to his victory the following year in the inaugural Australian Formula Ford series.

Since then, eight World Formula One champions have risen through Formula Ford, including Nigel Mansell, Ayrton Senna, Emerson Fittipaldi, James Hunt, Jody Scheckter, Michael Schumacher, Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve and Mika Hakkinen, while Mark Webber is also a Formula Ford graduate.

In Australia, the V8 Supercar series is rich with Formula Ford champions, including Larry Perkins (1971 champion), Tomas Mezera (1985), Mark Larkham (1989), Russell Ingall (1990), Craig Lowndes (1993), Steven Richards (1994), Jason Bright (1995), David Besnard (1996), Garth Tander (1997), Greg Ritter (1999), Will Davison (2001) and Jamie Whincup (2002). And 2007 Australian Carrera Cup Champion David Reynolds took the Formula Ford title in 2004.

Formula Ford stars from these and other series are being invited to the Phillip Island meeting, where a parade, a mass autograph signing session and an historic group photograph will be amongst the category’s celebrations.

As well as local Formula Ford cars, containers of vehicles are also expected from the United Kingdom and New Zealand.
However Formula Fords won’t be the only cars in the spotlight at the March 13-15 meeting.

The 50th anniversary of the Mini and the Elfin car and the 100th anniversary of Morgan are also being celebrated at the 2009 Phillip Island Classic, which again has major sponsorship from Shannons and the VACC, with major displays of each marque featured of the meeting.
The meeting also celebrates the 20th anniversary of racing at the circuit conducted by the Victorian Historic Racing Register, under whose guidance the Phillip Island Classic has grown to become the largest historic race meeting of its type in the Southern Hemisphere, with more than 500 touring, sports and racing cars spanning seven decades taking part in 2009.

[timbo]

What does Glenn Seton have to do with historic motor racing?

He has been fortunate enough to have a career as a professional motor racing driver (something we all wish we could say), and is now very successfully racing a Ford Capri V6 in historic touring car racing.

He is doing the same as every other historic motor racing driver is doing. Racing for the enjoyment of it.

As for being an unknown racing car driver, well, everyone knows who Glenn Seton is, and if his name helps get some Joe Publics to get along to Phillip Island to watch historic motor racing for the first time, then great.
I doubt the average person in the street would know who Bill Patterson or Austin Miller is, and if told that they were to be at P.I., they would just shrug their shoulders and say, "so what, who are they?".

Glenn will make a great patron for the meeting.

As for me, I will be there for the cars, the atmosphere, the comradeship of like minded enthusiasts, and the circuit itself (all in no particular order).

dere kPitt (your sign off) I'm sure you will find it will be a fantastic meeting. You'll just have to wait and read about it after the event.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by timbo
He has been fortunate enough to have a career as a professional motor racing driver (something we all wish we could say), and is now very successfully racing a Ford Capri V6 in historic touring car racing.

If thats the yellow one, then it is probably the car that Bo built and campaigned for a while

[Derek Pitt]

Intersting..

Apart from what was pedalled on commercial TV for consumption by the masses, I have never heard of Glenn Seton.

There was a Seton in the 1960's who drove touring cars, but I am unaware of anybody called Seton who has actually driven a racing car.

The same applies to the "heroes" quoted in the verbose VHRR blurb in respect of PI 2009.

If, as you say, however insulting to motor racing enthusiasts it is ," the person in the street would not know who Bill Patterson or Austin Miller is, and if told that they were to be at P.I., they would just shrug their shoulders and say, "so what, who are they?", then i would say you are simply supporting my argument , that the VHRR has lost its way and needs serious corrective action.

Is '"Street Wise" a measure of our racing heritage, does anybody think these local saloon car drivers amount to anything more than media created heroes?


How much longer can this debate be avoided?

Derek Pitt

[Bondy]

Im sure some forum members will be shattered in the knowledge that their Ralt RT4's are not racing cars ;)

[Leo D]

Bondy.... Can I assume you are thinking about Sandown?...... Can't quite remember the year though..... Early 90's? .......

[Speedy27]

I must have missed something somewhere, as I knew about the achievements of Glenn Seton long before I lived is Australia; long before motorsport was in any way broadcast live, recorded - or in print - to the world by the mass media, and a fair while before technology often made it impossible to discern a great driver from a plonker.

As for Seton never having driven a real racing car like a top league racing driver, irrespective of the era in which he raced, the following footage must surely then be completely fake:

Glenn Seton - Bathurst 1987

[David McKinney]

No, probably not a fake
But not a racing car either

[2Bob]

I'm in 2 minds about real racing cars but a bit hard on the Seton family to dismiss their racing heritage completely. Have a look at http://www.autopics....c.html?cache=no Is that a real racing car?

Also go to http://www.autopics....blic/home.ehtml and type Seton into the search box. Pretty extensive history I would think even if mostly not in real racing cars!

[xbgs351]

Originally posted by 2Bob
I'm in 2 minds about real racing cars but a bit hard on the Seton family to dismiss their racing heritage completely. Have a look at http://www.autopics....c.html?cache=no Is that a real racing car?

Also go to http://www.autopics....blic/home.ehtml and type Seton into the search box. Pretty extensive history I would think even if mostly not in real racing cars!

Nope, just touring cars.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Speedy27
I must have missed something somewhere, as I knew about the achievements of Glenn Seton long before I lived is Australia; long before motorsport was in any way broadcast live, recorded - or in print - to the world by the mass media, and a fair while before technology often made it impossible to discern a great driver from a plonker.

As for Seton never having driven a real racing car like a top league racing driver, irrespective of the era in which he raced, the following footage must surely then be completely fake:

Glenn Seton - Bathurst 1987

I always understood that this footage went live (or within a few hours...) world wide?

It's great stuff, of course, and shows what a loss it was that Glenn never raced openwheelers. His co-driver, Mark Skaife, did, of course, their team manager (Fred Gibson) believing that he needed that kind of expansion to his experience.

So Glenn didn't?

Or did he? What was your question about, Bondy?

In days gone by I've always lamented that his father never raced openwheelers. Bo was the neatest of all in sedans, not slow by any means and I believe he set more fastest laps in the Bathurst enduro than any other driver. Certainly before the modern era.

[Leo D]

Bondy mentioned a Ralt RT-4....

I mentioned Sandown......

So nobody else remembers Glen Seton having a drive in an openwheeler at Sandown?......

[Bondy]

Originally posted by Leo D
Bondy.... Can I assume you are thinking about Sandown?...... Can't quite remember the year though..... Early 90's? .......

2 occasions both in 1988... While i don't have exact dates on hand.... Glenn won on debut at the Adelaide round of the Australian Formula 2 Championship in the Dave Thompson owned Ralt RT4.... Glenn also drove it at the Sandown Round in September which also featured the Castrol 500 or whatever it was called back then... Glenn was leading the Sandown event but retired with mechanical problems....

Im going by my photgraphic memory ;) but it ran #53 (Thompsons race number, think he raced that DT Clubman sportie for a while) was Blue and had white and red stripes on the side pods with Autosport or a similar name, i think Thompson's business..... If someone has a 1988 Australian Motor Racing Yearbook there are pics of the car in that... One of Seto at Adelaide i think on the bowl... As i said going my memory only...

He also won iirc the TAG 125cc light class at the 2007 Over 40 Titles at Coffs Harbour....

[Dale Harvey]

Glenn did race an openwheeler for a short time. Formula 3 I think. The car was blue. I can't remember the manufacturer but I am sure it had a Nissan engine. He made a damn good job of it too and some of the regulars looked very ordinary against him.
For 275GTB Glenn's Capri is blue and white.
Dale.

[Bondy]

Originally posted by Dale Harvey
Glenn did race an openwheeler for a short time. Formula 3 I think. The car was blue. I can't remember the manufacturer but I am sure it had a Nissan engine. He made a damn good job of it too and some of the regulars looked very ordinary against him.
For 275GTB Glenn's Capri is blue and white.
Dale.

Yeah it ran a Nissan engine... It was a Ralt RT4 ex Mondial/Pacific/Atlantic chassis.... A few guys tried to run the RT4 in AF2 form, one famous name.. Mr Larner tried, Glenn succeeded Oh and the Thompson chassis number was 199 originally for Alo Lawler.. Now in QLD in the hands of Graham Mein...

[Ray Bell]

Yes, that would have been in ANF2 (single cam 1600cc), probably a Pulsar engine...

I wasn't around during that period so knew nothing about that car, but undoubtedly it was an example of Fred Gibson running his drivers in an openwheeler formula to give them experience that might improve their driving of the tintops.

Dave Thompson, as I recall, ran his cars in blue and yellow. Perhaps Nissan bought the drive for Glenn, undoubtedly passing on technological support to Thompson?

[Leo D]

Ray, I'm not sure that the drive had anything to do with Nissan..... Glen was with Nissan for the 1988 season, but didn't 1989 see him in his own Ford Sierra?

I've got the feeling that the openwheeler drive was when he was between touring car drives ie Gibson (Nissan) and his own team..... I could be wrong on this though.

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Yes, that would have been in ANF2 (single cam 1600cc), probably a Pulsar engine.

Ray, unfortnately the Nissan engine was a real dud in AF2 of those years. Seton was certainly helped along by Nissan , the late Howard Marsden and Fred Gibson......

[Lola5000]

Originally posted by Leo D
Bondy mentioned a Ralt RT-4....

I mentioned Sandown......

So nobody else remembers Glen Seton having a drive in an openwheeler at Sandown?......

it was a F2 Ralt with a pushrod motor.

[Lola5000]

Originally posted by Derek Pitt
On readng the VHRR website in relation to Phillip Island Historic meeting in March, we see the following:

"Two-times Australian Touring Car Champion and perennial Bathurst ‘bridesmaid’ Glenn Seton, will be the Patron of the 2009 Phillip Island Classic Festival of Motorsport from March 13-15, which is being supported by Shannons and the VACC.

Seton, who remains one of only five drivers alongside the late Peter Brock, Dick Johnson, John Bowe and Mark Skaife to have competed in over 200 touring car rounds, will race a BMW M3 in the headline combined Group C & Group A races at the meeting. "

Oh and by the way, Sir Jack Brabham might be there, but he is only a Triple World F1 Champion and a living INTERNATIONAL legend....am I missing something here?

What do these touring car drivers have to do with historic motor racing?

Is Historic Phillip Island to be reduced to an V8 engine reconditioner's paradise?

We currently still have:

Sir Jack Brabham
Tony Gaze
Reg Hunt
Bill Patterson
Frank Matich
Austin Miller
and others

with us

But instead we have the above garbage inflicted upon us.....

It is time for historic enthusuasts to call a stop to this nonsense ..

Local Government has specific Pecuniary Interest Clauses which may apply here.

I am not going to a meeting of historic racing cars which stupidly suggests has an unknown touring car driver is a fitting patron.

In the meantime, those who want to see a change in VHRR, and in its direction, are welcome to email me privately.
dere kPitt

Shame about the VHRR it was such a good club 10/15 years ago.I so much enjoyed the club,meetings,xmas party but so many have passed on kel R,Murray,Roger ect Lot of fun times.

[Catalina Park]

Wow, there is a lot of crap here!

I can't think of a better ambassador for Historic motor racing than Glenn. He is someone that raced at the top level in Aus and it never went to his head, he was always the same bloke that I remember having his first drive in a Ford Escort many years ago. The fact that he has given up the top level and gone back to his roots and is regularly driving in historics shows the kind of bloke that he is deep inside. He is someone that loves to drive cars.

I remember Glenn driving the RT4. He was a star! He only drove it a couple of times and was at the front straight away. The RT4 was not the right car for the class and the Nissan (OHC) engine was not the right engine for the class but that didn't stop his natural talent from shining through.

[275 GTB-4]

Dale Harvey For 275GTB Glenn's Capri is blue and white.

Thanks....I wonder if it is the same car though, or if Bo built two

Glenn is the Patron of the meeting...I think it is a nice old fashioned aspect of the VHRR meetings that they have a patron...Patrons don't do all that much except act as a spokesperson, start a race ? maybe doing parade laps and signing autographs (of course, I'm sure the honour does not prevent them from actively competing).

I can't see Glenn bringing the tone of the meeting down or the raw attraction that the big eclectic car fields bring.

Derek...are you typing Stans material for him?? Just a thought

[Speedy27]

Originally posted by Catalina Park
Wow, there is a lot of crap here!

5 star response to a thoroughly pathetic topic - I couldn't (and didn't manage) to sum it up nearly as well as you have. Thank you!

Roll on PI 2009!

[timbo]

Originally posted by Speedy27


5 star response to a thoroughly pathetic topic - I couldn't (and didn't manage) to sum it up nearly as well as you have. Thank you!

Roll on PI 2009!

It is about time this topic was put to bed.

[Lee Nicolle]

That is a very well known piece of footage of Glen manhandling that evil handling Nissan across the top of the mountain. That was the car that used to break windscreens in the dry with chassis flex!!
Just because a race driver choose not to drive openwheelers does not make him less of a racedriver, and as a proffessional it makes him a decent living which is impossible in open wheelers.And Glen has won more races than most. If you have not heard of him maybe you should go bury your head back in the sand.
Personally in the last decade or two I have yet to see a really decent openwheel race in australia, I have been when the Formula Holdens, F2s, the F3s have been on, even with decent fields and it has been fairly average.Either one horse races or they all fall off the track and sit on there bellys on the infield. The best openwheel racing I have seen is Formula Ford and Vees. Or Speedcars and Sprinters!!

[Lee Nicolle]

There is another open wheel driver around too that won a few races, and made up the numbers in a Touring Car, in fact Glens no2....... Alan Jones.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
.....I wonder if it is the same car though, or if Bo built two.....

Their difficulties of the mid-nineties seemingly over now, Glenn spends a bit of time with his father...

I'm pretty sure I saw Bo's car (yellow and black, right?) on a trailer heading towards Brisbane from Warwick yesterday. And I don't think Bo would be giving up playing in his old field for a while yet.

So I'd be pretty sure Glenn's car is one of the others that's been hanging around Bo's workshop over the past couple of years.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by timbo
It is about time this topic was put to bed.

I think you two need to look up your Funk and Wagnells for the definition of "topic"

Phillip Island historics 2009 is an excellent topic to be discussed on this forum

[Catalina Park]

I can't see how something that has not yet happened can be regarded as Nostalgia.
I guess Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Catalina Park
I can't see how something that has not yet happened can be regarded as Nostalgia.
I guess Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

Who pulled your chain Mike????

What part of something nostalgic is about to happen at PI soon don't you get???

[Lola5000]

How many group M/O Brabhams are running.

[tania34]

Poor Derek - You do sound like son of Stan.
I was surprised about Glenn but who cares.
I am going to see all those fantastic Elfins, the real ones built by Garrie.
Hopefully there will also be a F5000 or two as well.
The VHRR website is pretty useless for information maybe it will be better in the next 2 weeks.
Open wheelers for me

[Lola5000]

Originally posted by tania34
Poor Derek - You do sound like son of Stan.
I was surprised about Glenn but who cares.
I am going to see all those fantastic Elfins, the real ones built by Garrie.
Hopefully there will also be a F5000 or two as well.
The VHRR website is pretty useless for information maybe it will be better in the next 2 weeks.
Open wheelers for me

sounds like a great meeting,pity I am unable to attend,got another car run on.

[NRoshier]

Originally posted by Derek Pitt
Intersting..

Apart from what was pedalled on commercial TV for consumption by the masses, I have never heard of Glenn Seton.

There was a Seton in the 1960's who drove touring cars, but I am unaware of anybody called Seton who has actually driven a racing car.

The same applies to the "heroes" quoted in the verbose VHRR blurb in respect of PI 2009.

If, as you say, however insulting to motor racing enthusiasts it is ," the person in the street would not know who Bill Patterson or Austin Miller is, and if told that they were to be at P.I., they would just shrug their shoulders and say, "so what, who are they?", then i would say you are simply supporting my argument , that the VHRR has lost its way and needs serious corrective action.

Is '"Street Wise" a measure of our racing heritage, does anybody think these local saloon car drivers amount to anything more than media created heroes?


How much longer can this debate be avoided?

Derek Pitt

Sadly I find the irony inherent within this post not the least amusing. I would ask you why you think that Bill Paterson or Austin Miller were any less a 'media created hero' than say Glen Seaton was/is? If they were not amedia created hero of their time why would anyone have heard of them?
It is not a sign of VHRR losing it's way, it is perhaps more a sign of the dwindling numbers of surviving people who remember the racing you admire. It is simply change to reflect available demographics and as always in a small population it is change or whither away.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by NRoshier
Sadly I find the irony inherent within this post not the least amusing. I would ask you why you think that Bill Paterson or Austin Miller were any less a 'media created hero' than say Glen Seaton was/is? If they were not amedia created hero of their time why would anyone have heard of them?
It is not a sign of VHRR losing it's way, it is perhaps more a sign of the dwindling numbers of surviving people who remember the racing you admire. It is simply change to reflect available demographics and as always in a small population it is change or whither away.

Quite....and it is also possibly that all the old and bold who should be taking turns as Patron are adopting the typically Aussie...done my bit!!

I'm astounded that such a great meeting has been talked about this year in such derogatory terms....who gives a tinkers cuss about VHRR and whoever is running the meeting....it is the stars and cars that are the attraction!!

[Lola5000]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4


Quite....and it is also possibly that all the old and bold who should be taking turns as Patron are adopting the typically Aussie...done my bit!!

I'm astounded that such a great meeting has been talked about this year in such derogatory terms....who gives a tinkers cuss about VHRR and whoever is running the meeting....it is the stars and cars that are the attraction!!

at some stage in time,a new group will need to step up as the older VHRR people die or move on .

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by NRoshier
Sadly I find the irony inherent within this post not the least amusing. I would ask you why you think that Bill Paterson or Austin Miller were any less a 'media created hero' than say Glen Seton was/is? If they were not a media created hero of their time why would anyone have heard of them?

Can't agree, Neil...

When people went to Bathurst or Phillip Island or Lowood or anywhere at all and saw Bill Patterson drive, they didn't need any media hype to help them understand that he was something of a 'hero' in his Coopers.

In today's world, however, many more people see the majority of their racing on television, where they are always at the mercy of the directors and commentators to help them conclude which drivers are best or bravest.

[Speedy27]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


... In today's world, however, many more people see the majority of their racing on television, where they are always at the mercy of the directors and commentators to help them conclude which drivers are best or bravest.

... while at Phillip Island each year, we are unbelievably privileged to witness a massively broad spectrum of motorsport history covering five or more decades ... and, yes, without the insufferably hyped and (almost necessarily) ignorant TV commentary so typical of some current events.

No doubt every spectator at Phillip Island has his or her personal preferences in terms of era, cars, drivers etc, yet judging by the interest apparent in every event on the program, it appears that the thousands who attend are capable of appreciating it ALL, without appearing sadly embittered by any aspect.

Furthermore, those that really understand motor racing accept that even in the 'glory days', hero's were born partly through their exceptional talent and partly through having their hands on a car that was at least as good as the best competition it faced. The Auto Unions, Maserati 250F, Lotus 49 and many others spring to mind - if you weren't in one, you were in for a very trying day, if winning was on your agenda. There are no doubt countless past drivers who didn't become legends for this very reason - notwithstanding the fact that the car became relatively even more important in later years.

So, stop and appreciate how lucky you are to have access to a race meeting like this every year, celebrate the whole pageant, or please change this thread title to Phillip Island Histrionics 2009 to warn non-believers to avoid this drivel; then stay at home and miss out on the best motorsport event you will likely see in 2009.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Speedy27
.....stop and appreciate how lucky you are to have access to a race meeting like this every year, celebrate the whole pageant, or please change this thread title to Phillip Island Histrionics 2009 to warn non-believers to avoid this drivel; then stay at home and miss out on the best motorsport event you will likely see in 2009.

Couldn't agree more...

Though I'm sure that catching up with people would absorb all my time if I was able to get there!

[Derek Pitt]

As a result of several postings I feel it necessary to make some form of reply.

I have raised a matter which I believe is fundamental to the future of historic racing in this country - that is - an awareness that a replication of the V8 touring car mentality which destroyed Australian motor racing from the early 1970's onwards, unless checked, will quickly destroy historic racing.

Some people have addressed the issue I have raised, while others have cared to indulge in a type of behaviour which I personally find worryingly un-Australian.

I have been told by people who don't agree with me:

"grow up and open your eyes"
"Wow, there is a lot of crap here!"
"It is about time this topic was put to bed."
"5 star response to a thoroughly pathetic topic - I couldn't (and didn't manage) to sum it up nearly as well as you have. Thank you!"
"please change this thread title to Phillip Island Histrionics 2009 to warn non-believers to avoid this drivel;"

I find this type of behaviour, which attempts to denigrate and censor an opinion which happens to differ from ones own opinion, abhorent and I would hope the majority of listers would feel the same way.

It has been made clear that V8 Supercar racing is considered to be the top category in this country.

Consider - front engined and until recently, cast iron blocked, pushrod activated, gaudily painted versions of 2 only brand, family sedans is our top category! One lister spoke of irony in a posting of mine....I think the real irony is that people can put forward such a form of racing as Australia's top motor racing category with a straight face and not feel any embarrassment.

As far as media hype goes - and Ray Bell is correct - Bill Patterson and his contemporaries drove grand prix cars against the world's best on dangerous circuits - there was no media hype as motor racing was ignored by the media almost totally. The fame of these drivers was due to their exploits. Unlike modern times, they did not enjoy the backing of foreign motor companies nor did they have a compliant and mindlessly popularist media to advertise their deeds.

It seems that Glenn Seton may have had the ability to become a serious racing driver but, through whatever circumstances, chose to stay in touring cars and that is fine and I stress this is not an attack on him personally....I am sure he is a nice guy - this is about preserving historic motor racing.

However, PI Historics is touting itself as the Goodwood of the Southern Hemisphere -a meeting of international standing - and it is therefore totally inappropriate to have an local touring car driver from an internatonally unknown and low level motor racing category, as Patron of such a meeting.

I would hope any further discussion on this matter can proceed in a positive and productive manner.

Derek Pitt

[Peter Brennan]

Stick at it Derek,i agree 100% with your assessment,

I have raised a matter which I believe is fundamental to the future of historic racing in this country - that is - an awareness that a replication of the V8 touring car mentality which destroyed Australian motor racing from the early 1970's onwards, unless checked, will quickly destroy historic racing.

Cheers Peter

[Lola5000]

Originally posted by Peter Brennan
Stick at it Derek,i agree 100% with your assessment,

I have raised a matter which I believe is fundamental to the future of historic racing in this country - that is - an awareness that a replication of the V8 touring car mentality which destroyed Australian motor racing from the early 1970's onwards, unless checked, will quickly destroy historic racing.

Cheers Peter

Sad thing is Peter , a lot of ua have already moved on and doing other things ree our car enjoyment.So many have left and moved on.Grab a pen I can thing of many,whom have left but if they wanted to would and could still race.For me I'd rather go for a drive in my E-type or my other wonderful car.
regards Rob Bailey.

[Ray Bell]

Derek, I think there's a problem here you don't see...

You raised only the issue of Glenn Seton being a suitable patron of the meeting. Yet in the fullness of time you convert the issue to something completely different - the transformation of Historic racing (it seems) by introducing the mindless 'V8 Supercars' into it.

I don't see them as the same issue, though they might be mildly connected. You opened about a person and that led to discussion about his worthiness. Then you respond to the negative replies by stating that the subject is really the touring car incursion.

Like it or not, the Phillip Island meeting is conducted by people with a vested interest in the tintops. Sure, they have diligently fed their patrons with a steady diet of some of the best Historic racing cars ever seen in the country, but they still put on tintop races with great gusto.

And it has proved that there is room and time at the meeting to put them all on together.

So please, Derek, clarify what your real issue is. Glenn Seton the son of Bo and highly popular driver? Or the prospect of 'V8 Supercars' becoming part of the Phillip Island diet?

If it's the latter, I think it would be nice to explain why you didn't say so in the first place.

[Derek Pitt]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


You raised only the issue of Glenn Seton being a suitable patron of the meeting. Yet in the fullness of time you convert the issue to something completely different - the transformation of Historic racing (it seems) by introducing the mindless 'V8 Supercars' into it.

I don't see them as the same issue, though they might be mildly connected.

Ray,

I will put it in terms which I hope make sense to you.

The Glenn Seton patron thing is simply a manifestation of an underlying problem, rather like how red spots on the skin are in fact a symptom of a more serious underlying problem - measles. The underlying problem here, however, is the destruction of the historic movement as we know it. My posting was not about Glen Seton per se - I had hoped that would be obvious.

Lola has pointed out that many older enthusiasts have passed on or, like as we saw at Historic Sandown last year, they either dont turn up or leave early.

A meeting of the stature of Phillip Island, which attracts entrants with breathtakingly exciting racing cars from around the world and which is claiming international status, is to have a local touring car driver from an unknown local category as its patron - if that does not strike even the least-questioning of enthusiasts, I dont say attendeees, as ridiculous then, to use a well known expression, "Houston, we have a problem"

You say- "Like it or not, the Phillip Island meeting is conducted by people with a vested interest in the tintops........."

Well that is news to me ,and if you are correct, which I sincerely hope you are not, then it is time the VHRR re-examined it roots comprehensively and quickly.

I hope I have clarifed the issue for you Ray.

Derek Pitt

[Speedy27]

Originally posted by Derek Pitt


My posting was not about Glen Seton per se - I had hoped that would be obvious.


Derek Pitt

You have one helluva way of making your point! Yes, your new and improved version appears to be a somewhat different tune from a different hymn book to "Glenn Seton may have had the ability to become a serious racing driver but, through whatever circumstances, chose to stay in touring cars". That comment reeked of bitterness, insult and ignorance insofar as Glenn Seton is concerned - 'thoroughly undeserved in my opinion and clearly also of other contributors.

The other issues you raise as regards the management and focus of the vhrr would surely be more appropriately discussed in the forum at www.vhrr.com than here? There was considerable debate there last year when Groups P, Q and R racing were excluded from the program - apparently due to lack of 'space'.

Whichever way we all spin the coin and whatever our personal preferences, history is history and it is worth trying to ensure that, should there be an attempt to re-write it differently, it does not succeed. On this point, at least, I'd bet that every contributor to this thread will agree.

Regards
Peter

[Lola5000]

Can some one tell us is the membership of the VHRR ,what it was say 5/10/15 years ago or are the numbers dropping off?
Just keen to know and if the numbers are dropping off why?

[Lee Nicolle]

Australian Touring Cars in all there various guises like it or not are hardly unknown, nor is their drivers.
And Glenn has been a champion in what once again like it or not has been our No1 motorsport category for 30 odd years. While there is plenty of other people who can be patron what is wrong with a tintop driver.
The Moffats, Brocks, Janes, Beechey, Geoghans, Perkins, Bartletts, Bonds are all very respected motorsport competitors most who at least dabbled in open wheelers with some success [particularly KB, Larry and Leo]
As are a lot of the current crop of drivers, Tander, Bright, Ambrose,Bargwarna, Skaife, Ingall, Davidson among many others who have been succesful in open wheelers. And most [including Glenn[ started in karts.

And ofcourse a lot of people do not want to [safety] or cannot [size and weight] drive openwheelers anyway.
Look at Mark Webber, as good as any but too big for absolute success and there is a lot bigger blokes around than him.
And as I have said in a previous post we seldom see good top class open wheel racing here anyway. To me the best was F5000 and often that was boring too as a couple of front runners run away and hide and the rest putter around and or break down. Often to do with budget and preperation more than drivers.

And yes like many others I am not very much a fan of stage managed, glossy packaged, dumbed down racing that we get these days in Supercars. Take heed Mr Cochrane and cronies.

But that is equally the case in F1 too, when i watch it I go to sleep!!. The only passing moves are during pitstops. Boring.

Money talks, often the best driver without the budget is an also ran, many drivers are at elite level through budget more than talent [though some is an advantage]

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Derek Pitt
Ray,

I will put it in terms which I hope make sense to you.

The Glenn Seton patron thing is simply a manifestation of an underlying problem, rather like how red spots on the skin are in fact a symptom of a more serious underlying problem - measles. The underlying problem here, however, is the destruction of the historic movement as we know it. My posting was not about Glen Seton per se - I had hoped that would be obvious.

Lola has pointed out that many older enthusiasts have passed on or, like as we saw at Historic Sandown last year, they either dont turn up or leave early.

A meeting of the stature of Phillip Island, which attracts entrants with breathtakingly exciting racing cars from around the world and which is claiming international status, is to have a local touring car driver from an unknown local category as its patron - if that does not strike even the least-questioning of enthusiasts, I dont say attendeees, as ridiculous then, to use a well known expression, "Houston, we have a problem".....

Sorry, Derek, the apparent intent of the original post didn't seem to me to be aimed that way. Against using a driver who wasn't 'Historic', yes, against pushing late model tintops to the fore, no.

You say- "Like it or not, the Phillip Island meeting is conducted by people with a vested interest in the tintops........."

Well that is news to me ,and if you are correct, which I sincerely hope you are not, then it is time the VHRR re-examined it roots comprehensively and quickly.....

It's not just the VHRR... the Mini Car Club has a large part in the conduct of the meeting too...

But beyond that, and without trying to denigrate a man who does a great job promoting this event and getting a good balance of competitors and making it wholesomely 'Historic', Ian Tate has a huge background in tintops leading up to the modern era.

This meeting features the Group A and Group C cars, does it not? Is that not an indication of the welcome mat having been laid out for them by people who like them?

Unfortunate as it might seem, they are probably pursuing the 'economic realities' without seeing who is offended by their including such cars. An age old problem and one on which I'm sure we'd agree totally.