291 replies to this topic

[eldougo]

Derek.
I and a few other have been through this in other Threads and it is always the some with certain TNFer who stick up for Taxi car in this country, and i am afraid you are barking up the tree if you want these people to agree with you or even see the truth in what your saying it will just NOT happen.
They are the one that got motorsport in Australia to where is now (f--k) and they are have been quitely chipping away at Historic racing for 20/30 years now and will not be happy until it is all taxi racing ,it is a strange Australian way but i have given up trying to work out why they think like that and in the end i just walk away like other like minded soul .

[275 GTB-4]

QUOTE RAY BELL "It's not just the VHRR... the Mini Car Club has a large part in the conduct of the meeting too..."

and herein lies the pecularly Victorian problem, they have the Victorian Flag Marshalling Team which is a well organised and trained group who can provide officials to any standard (including F1).

Then you have this "crazy" (my opinion) system in VIC where individual car clubs "run" meetings. The problem here is that no matter how experienced some of the officials are (in this case the Holloways) you will not get a consistent approach from meeting to meeting...in some cases you get absolutely diabolically dangerous situations on-track due to "amateur" people running meetings...

I believe this is a far bigger issue that needs to be addressed down south than any perceived problem with the VHRR etc.

[David Shaw]

I think for the Historic movement to survive financially, it needs to get new supporters coming in. If it were to stick to a particular cutoff date, or not include 'historic' touring cars, then the crowds that come and support and participate would slowly decline with age.

There is a need I feel for Historics to be economically viable, to attract people that have an interest in motorsport by supplying a product that they are willing to pay to see, such as Group A Tourers, and then present them with the best show of 'real' Historic racing.

Dangle a bit of bait and them get them hooked.

On another point, I wonder if there are any people still with us who can remember back as far as the first AGPs at Phillip Island and scoff at the thought of 1960s Brabhams, BRMs and even the Maybachs being regarded as 'Historic'.

[Lola5000]

The sad truth of the matter is most of the public go to these meetings to see the tin tops.
IMO if you go through the grids ,what would their be 30 odd cars that are worth a photo/look at.As i said where have all the Brabhams and Elfin M/O cars gone?

[275 GTB-4]

Quote

Originally posted by David Shaw
I think for the Historic movement to survive financially, it needs to get new supporters coming in. If it were to stick to a particular cutoff date, or not include 'historic' touring cars, then the crowds that come and support and participate would slowly decline with age.

There is a need I feel for Historics to be economically viable, to attract people that have an interest in motorsport by supplying a product that they are willing to pay to see, such as Group A Tourers, and then present them with the best show of 'real' Historic racing.

Dangle a bit of bait and them get them hooked.

On another point, I wonder if there are any people still with us who can remember back as far as the first AGPs at Phillip Island and scoff at the thought of 1960s Brabhams, BRMs and even the Maybachs being regarded as 'Historic'.

But David!! the Group A/C people are up and running after a shakey start...they have featured at many meetings including PI Classic...whilst the baby boomers are still around and their chillun and the other enthusiasts, why bring in the marketing people with their silk suits and italian shoes??

Historic racing is not broke...why fix it!!!

[Lola5000]

Quote

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4


But David!! the Group A/C people are up and running after a shakey start...they have featured at many meetings including PI Classic...whilst the baby boomers are still around and their chillun and the other enthusiasts, why bring in the marketing people with their silk suits and italian shoes??

Historic racing is not broke...why fix it!!!

it could be a lot better,as my ex said it needs people of vision running it rather then bank managers,pass another port bods,clerks,mechanics and the unemployable from the outer areas.

[275 GTB-4]

Quote

Originally posted by Lola5000
it could be a lot better,as my ex said it needs people of vision running it rather then bank managers,pass another port bods,clerks,mechanics and the unemployable from the outer areas.

and then you end up at the top end of town with the Tony Cochranes of this world...in a perfect world yes...in Aust where there is a shortage of population, visionaries AND officials...forget it

[David Shaw]

Isn't that what Charlie Cooper said to Brabham when Jack wanted to develop the T51 (into what was eventually the Lowline T53) after winning the WDC in 1959?

[275 GTB-4]

Quote

Originally posted by David Shaw
Isn't that what Charlie Cooper said to Brabham when Jack wanted to develop the T51 (into what was eventually the Lowline T53) after winning the WDC in 1959?

David...I don't see the connection....Charlie and John soon came to realise Jacks brilliant skills and potential...what does that prove???

[Lola5000]

Answer this.
How can a MGB run a webber carb in group B/C.
I can't remember as a kid ever seeing one sold from a dealership with them on.

[Lola5000]

How come at the Phillip island meeting thet turn a blind eye to the New Zealand F5000 cars and their specs?

[Lola5000]

Quote

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4


and then you end up at the top end of town with the Tony Cochranes of this world...in a perfect world yes...in Aust where there is a shortage of population, visionaries AND officials...forget it

well to their loss,plenty of people out their who could take historics to a higher level.

[Lee Nicolle]

Quote

Originally posted by Lola5000
Answer this.
How can a MGB run a webber carb in group B/C.
I can't remember as a kid ever seeing one sold from a dealership with them on.

It doesnt really matter what historic class of motorsport modern parts sneak in. There would not be a historic car of any form racing anywhere that has not had some form of modification.
Between the never ending chase for performance, the lack of advailability of parts, parts that were never suitable to start with plus ofcourse modern safety regs means they will never be exactly kosher. Some come close, some are eons away.
And ofcourse so often cars are restored to far better than what they were originally, better finished, better mechanicals.
And some historic categorys are racing cars that never raced to rules theyn now run to. Group Nc is the classic example. Basically pre 64 rules on cars built up to 72. And Nb was taken over by Mustangs which were never raced here until 65, on a different set of rules.
I believe the production sports have similar disparity.

[Lola5000]

Quote

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle

It doesnt really matter what historic class of motorsport modern parts sneak in. There would not be a historic car of any form racing anywhere that has not had some form of modification.
Between the never ending chase for performance, the lack of advailability of parts, parts that were never suitable to start with plus ofcourse modern safety regs means they will never be exactly kosher. Some come close, some are eons away.
And ofcourse so often cars are restored to far better than what they were originally, better finished, better mechanicals.
And some historic categorys are racing cars that never raced to rules theyn now run to. Group Nc is the classic example. Basically pre 64 rules on cars built up to 72. And Nb was taken over by Mustangs which were never raced here until 65, on a different set of rules.
I believe the production sports have similar disparity.

MGB issue is a pure changing of the rules to suit one OHOS make.No other car in the class can change its carbs/injection.
Correct about NC the cars in many ways are under modified to the period.
Funny how a bertone GTV2000 Alfa can run in SC also a Alfetta in SC.
So glad i walked away from it all,why do i comment,because i can and no one ays my wage.

[275 GTB-4]

Quote

Originally posted by Lola5000
well to their loss,plenty of people out their who could take historics to a higher level.

Uuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm well why aren't they stepping forward to take control???

[275 GTB-4]

Quote

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle

It doesnt really matter what historic class of motorsport modern parts sneak in. There would not be a historic car of any form racing anywhere that has not had some form of modification.
Between the never ending chase for performance, the lack of advailability of parts, parts that were never suitable to start with plus ofcourse modern safety regs means they will never be exactly kosher. Some come close, some are eons away.
And ofcourse so often cars are restored to far better than what they were originally, better finished, better mechanicals.
And some historic categorys are racing cars that never raced to rules theyn now run to. Group Nc is the classic example. Basically pre 64 rules on cars built up to 72. And Nb was taken over by Mustangs which were never raced here until 65, on a different set of rules.
I believe the production sports have similar disparity.

Gawd...yew tew may not have seen that Vebers were homologated for Bs and were freely available at BMC Special Tuning outlets IN THE PERIOD

[Ray Bell]

Are the sports cars restricted to the original types of carby? I wouldn't have thought so!

There was certainly a number of MGBs in period running Webers.

[maoricar]

At least in NZ, Webers, multiple Webers, and appropriate manifolds, were available as Dealer options for numerous European saloons and sports cars, in period. Included in this were, obviously, cars in the BMC range, however, Ford, Rootes Group, and FIAT could also be modified, in period, with Weber carburetion. I even recall one (rather obsessed) individual, modifying a pre-Dauphine Renault with a huge supply of Gordini engine and carby parts

During the 1960's, from the respective dealerships, I purchased Weber 'kits' for the following;
Ford Cortina Mk 11; Ford Escort Mk1; Hillman Super Minx and Singer Vogue ( there was, at the time, a very progressive and aggressive Rootes Group dealership in Auckland..Griffiths Motors ) and, from the late and great Timothy Sherman Bailey, while he was still Service manager at Torino Motors, an entire Nardi engine package, which included a whacking great side draught Weber for a FIAT 1500.

Later, during the '70's, Webers were included in dealer offered 'packages' for several Datsun models, the 1200, 1600 and 180B come to mind.

I think its fair to say that, in period, in NZ, Weber 'kits' were , if not easily available, certainly could be special ordered from dealerships, giving the impression to those of us that purchased them, that they were 'factory' options.

[Lola5000]

Quote

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4


Uuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm well why aren't they stepping forward to take control???

well because many of them got burn't and moved on.Ones life does not have to revolve around OHOS,their are far more enjoyable things in life.
I enjoyed it ,but like many was burn't and moved on.Plus my find is worth more to me then hanging around a race track for 3 days and getting about 45 mins on the track.Then putting up with the all the drama that goes with it.
Rather jump in my car and go for a drive,lunch and company of friends.

[Lola5000]

Quote

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4


Gawd...yew tew may not have seen that Vebers were homologated for Bs and were freely available at BMC Special Tuning outlets IN THE PERIOD

oh yea funny how many in Australia were sold with them new?
as a kid my father had dozern's of em bought and sold I asked him he never remembers one that had it fitted by a dealer.
yet Bryson were happy to fit a weber conversion to E-types yet they do not enjoy this freedom.
As for the rules of today,they in knowway are similar to the period racing.
pass another PORT rofl.

[timbo]

Quote

Originally posted by Lola5000
How come at the Phillip island meeting thet turn a blind eye to the New Zealand F5000 cars and their specs?

Could you enlighten us on how the NZ F5000 cars specs are different to either everybody else, or how they used to run?

[Dick Willis]

CAMS Manual, on line, Group specs, section 3.5.1, para (f) Induction, " carburettors or fuel injection systems must be of the same make,type and number originally fitted to the vehicle. Carburettor bore size is free. "

[David Shaw]

Quote

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle

And some historic categorys are racing cars that never raced to rules theyn now run to. Group Nc is the classic example. Basically pre 64 rules on cars built up to 72. And Nb was taken over by Mustangs which were never raced here until 65, on a different set of rules.

Not to mention category Na which is for pre-1958 sedans, which therefore only ran under the rules established by each promoter ie. pump fuel, passenger seats.
If this category was regulated to what was used in the day, we would have Repco-headed Holdens with Jag 'boxes against Mays-headed Zephyrs and Austin Lancers with MGA engines.

[Derek Pitt]

Quote

Originally posted by Dick Willis
CAMS Manual, on line, Group specs, section 3.5.1, para (f) Induction, " carburettors or fuel injection systems must be of the same make,type and number originally fitted to the vehicle. Carburettor bore size is free. "

I wonder, does CAMS in its infinite wisdom, have such stringent regulations pertaining to truck racing, ute racing and those 3/4 sized motorcycle-engined (touring car bodied - naturally) vehicles?

*Shakes Head*

Derek Pitt

[Lola5000]

Quote

Originally posted by timbo


Could you enlighten us on how the NZ F5000 cars specs are different to either everybody else, or how they used to run?

just waiting for a person in the know to email me.
How many Lola T430's were built was it 3 and how many were destroyed 1 yet 3 race?

[Speedy27]

Quote

Originally posted by Lola5000
just waiting for a person in the know to email me.
How many Lola T430's were built was it 3 and how many were destroyed 1 yet 3 race?

not correct!

3 were built; 1 was destroyed (the second chassis piloted by Hamilton at Sandown); this same one was rebuilt years later. So that correctly explains 3 racing today.

[Lola5000]

Quote

Originally posted by Speedy27


not correct!

3 were built; 1 was destroyed (the second chassis piloted by Hamilton at Sandown); this same one was rebuilt years later. So that correctly explains 3 racing today.

oh ok .so what was rebuilt?
the tub?

[seldo]

Quote

Originally posted by Derek Pitt
As a result of several postings I feel it necessary to make some form of reply.

I have raised a matter which I believe is fundamental to the future of historic racing in this country - that is - an awareness that a replication of the V8 touring car mentality which destroyed Australian motor racing from the early 1970's onwards, unless checked, will quickly destroy historic racing.

Some people have addressed the issue I have raised, while others have cared to indulge in a type of behaviour which I personally find worryingly un-Australian.

I have been told by people who don't agree with me:

"grow up and open your eyes"
"Wow, there is a lot of crap here!"
"It is about time this topic was put to bed."
"5 star response to a thoroughly pathetic topic - I couldn't (and didn't manage) to sum it up nearly as well as you have. Thank you!"
"please change this thread title to Phillip Island Histrionics 2009 to warn non-believers to avoid this drivel;"

I find this type of behaviour, which attempts to denigrate and censor an opinion which happens to differ from ones own opinion, abhorent and I would hope the majority of listers would feel the same way.

It has been made clear that V8 Supercar racing is considered to be the top category in this country.

Consider - front engined and until recently, cast iron blocked, pushrod activated, gaudily painted versions of 2 only brand, family sedans is our top category! One lister spoke of irony in a posting of mine....I think the real irony is that people can put forward such a form of racing as Australia's top motor racing category with a straight face and not feel any embarrassment.

As far as media hype goes - and Ray Bell is correct - Bill Patterson and his contemporaries drove grand prix cars against the world's best on dangerous circuits - there was no media hype as motor racing was ignored by the media almost totally. The fame of these drivers was due to their exploits. Unlike modern times, they did not enjoy the backing of foreign motor companies nor did they have a compliant and mindlessly popularist media to advertise their deeds.

It seems that Glenn Seton may have had the ability to become a serious racing driver but, through whatever circumstances, chose to stay in touring cars and that is fine and I stress this is not an attack on him personally....I am sure he is a nice guy - this is about preserving historic motor racing.

However, PI Historics is touting itself as the Goodwood of the Southern Hemisphere -a meeting of international standing - and it is therefore totally inappropriate to have an local touring car driver from an internatonally unknown and low level motor racing category, as Patron of such a meeting.

I would hope any further discussion on this matter can proceed in a positive and productive manner.

Derek Pitt

Derek - I do owe you an apology - my response was unnecessarily harsh.
However, I do not resile from the intent of what I said in that your denigration of Glen Seton was both un-called for, unnecessary, and not terribly logical in my view. A very fine driver no matter what category/s he has competed in.
Your subsequent attempt to twist the argument into a Touring car bashing does you no merit. As has been stated in previous threads, the mix of cars and races is critically important to the financial success of any of these events, and if the buying public don't like what is offered they vote with their feet and stay away in droves.....Sadly, many many of those who will attend have never heard of those great drivers that you propose as an alternative, and without the Touring cars, the masses simply would not attend, never get the chance to be impressed, and the event would fail from lack of spectator support.
There's an real opportunity for you to display your displeasure with their choice of patron....Don't go! Your loss.

[Lee Nicolle]

Quote

Originally posted by David Shaw


Not to mention category Na which is for pre-1958 sedans, which therefore only ran under the rules established by each promoter ie. pump fuel, passenger seats.
If this category was regulated to what was used in the day, we would have Repco-headed Holdens with Jag 'boxes against Mays-headed Zephyrs and Austin Lancers with MGA engines.

Agreed David, I forgot as that was a liitle before my time. Ofcourse those cars were quite famous and I have read about those cars a lot and there has been a lot about them here on this forum.
Once again historic racing is not historic. Though they seem to bend the rules for the cars of the period eg Des Walls x Geoghan Mustang and now The Jane HQ which do not comply with Nc rules

[cosworth bdg]

Quote

Originally posted by Peter Brennan
Stick at it Derek,i agree 100% with your assessment,

I have raised a matter which I believe is fundamental to the future of historic racing in this country - that is - an awareness that a replication of the V8 touring car mentality which destroyed Australian motor racing from the early 1970's onwards, unless checked, will quickly destroy historic racing.

Cheers Peter

Peter, that mentallity is continuing un- checked and historic racing un-fortunatly is already on the road to self destruction ,this all happening right under the nose of C.A.M.S. and its Members.... Regards P .N

[cosworth bdg]

Quote

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle

Agreed David, I forgot as that was a liitle before my time. Ofcourse those cars were quite famous and I have read about those cars a lot and there has been a lot about them here on this forum.
Once again historic racing is not historic. Though they seem to bend the rules for the cars of the period eg Des Walls x Geoghan Mustang and now The Jane HQ which do not comply with Nc rules

Nc rules are realy only a cover for CHEATS , and there are mainy of them out there.

[timbo]

Quote

Originally posted by Lola5000
oh ok .so what was rebuilt?
the tub?

Probably just the chassis no. plate.;)

With crashes, rebuilds, restorations etc, they are probably all a bit like grandfathers axe. The problem is, what do you do with all the left over bits? Build another axe?

Still great to watch though. The F1 cars will make a worthy support class to the F5000's at the AGP.

[Lola5000]

Quote

Originally posted by timbo


Probably just the chassis no. plate.;)

With crashes, rebuilds, restorations etc, they are probably all a bit like grandfathers axe. The problem is, what do you do with all the left over bits? Build another axe?

Still great to watch though. The F1 cars will make a worthy support class to the F5000's at the AGP.

ok os I can therfore build up a car that was destroyed,thrown to the tip and get a log book,thats fantastic.
Two cars I'd like to get log booked.
1.Bob Jane's 1st Jaguar E-type
2.Moffats super Falcon.
So what all I need is a chassis plate?

[IanRM]

I have read this (and other) threads about how tin-top racing has destroyed motor racing in this country and am curious as to how and why this happened.
This must have started some time in the sixties, as by the time I started attending meetings in the early seventies the tourers where already pretty much the headline act (F5000 aside, while it lasted).
The way some here describe it makes it sound like these sedan scoundrels came along, fists swinging and guns a-blazing and chased the open wheelers out of town. They also make it sound like open wheel racing was the be all and end all, with exciting racing / driving etc.
My question is (and it is a serious one, not trying to be a smarty) if the open wheel racing was so good, why did touring cars take over? They could not have done it all on their own (as per the scenario above) so what happened? Could it be that the crowds just did not come after the Tasman series died - surely the promoters need to give the crowd what they want - and it seems that they wanted tourers. Why would that be - from afar I can only assume that the racing was closer / more spectacular / easier to relate to. Can those who were there at the time throw some light on this?
Please understand that I am not an opologist for touring car racing - I have enjoyed it in the pre V8Supercar era, but also loved the F5000 days, before they became a bit of a joke.
Ian

[Andrew Fellowes]

Rose tinted glasses is one of the problems, that and change, change is always disliked. I (just) remember the early 60’s when at the time it was said that single seater racing was being ruined by identical cigar shaped clones, I also remember the slip streaming in the late 60’s which most people said was worse than watching paint dry. Now people worship those days and there was even a comment awhile back that the Brambillas were saints. Oh good grief!
Later I remember the thrill of Muir and Gardner in the big saloons, and of the battles royal with Cologne Capris against the CSL BMWs ……….!!!!!!, (everything has a place.)

I suspect the best days were when you first discovered motor racing, regardless of what it was,

Quote

Originally posted by Lola5000
Rather jump in my car and go for a drive,lunch and company of friends.

but I thought you were looking to buy a Brabham?

[Dick Willis]

I've read the contents of this thread with interest over the past few weeks with arguments going to and fro, so why don't those with strong opinions on the subject do something useful and put them forward at the Strategic Planning Workshop which CAMS is running on March 8th, go to the CAMS/Historic website to find who you can lodge your submissions with.

[Lola5000]

Quote

Originally posted by Andrew Fellowes
Rose tinted glasses is one of the problems, that and change, change is always disliked. I (just) remember the early 60’s when at the time it was said that single seater racing was being ruined by identical cigar shaped clones, I also remember the slip streaming in the late 60’s which most people said was worse than watching paint dry. Now people worship those days and there was even a comment awhile back that the Brambillas were saints. Oh good grief!
Later I remember the thrill of Muir and Gardner in the big saloons, and of the battles royal with Cologne Capris against the CSL BMWs ……….!!!!!!, (everything has a place.)

I suspect the best days were when you first discovered motor racing, regardless of what it was,


but I thought you were looking to buy a Brabham?

na ended up buying a road car.

[cavvy]

Quote

Originally posted by Lola5000
ok os I can therfore build up a car that was destroyed,thrown to the tip and get a log book,thats fantastic.
Two cars I'd like to get log booked.
1.Bob Jane's 1st Jaguar E-type
2.Moffats super Falcon.
So what all I need is a chassis plate?

Strike #2 being rebuilt in WA.

[Lola5000]

Quote

Originally posted by cavvy


Strike #2 being rebuilt in WA.

strike 1 as well its or its wreck is in VIC after many years lost ,thought destroyed in South Aust.

[275 GTB-4]

Quote

Originally posted by cavvy
Strike #2 being rebuilt in WA.

So the Bowdens have a replica??

[Lola5000]

Quote

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4


So the Bowdens have a replica??

i think he means the Moffat super Falcon and not the white ex Pete G car.

[275 GTB-4]

No he means Petes (white) Super Falcon...are there at least two replicas then???

[Lola5000]

Quote

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
No he means Petes (white) Super Falcon...are there at least two replicas then???

what does he mean about the Moffat Super Falcon,which was the sister car?

[Lee Nicolle]

Petes Super Falcon was restored and is owned by David Bowden.
Moffats very lightly raced Super Falcon was supposedly full of fatigue and was scrapped in the early 70s, any car purporting to be it would be a copy.
It would seem that Moff never liked it, it was never a patch on the Mustang.
If the Moffat car was fatigued what must have happened to Petes car which was raced for quite a while before being converted heavily into a Sports sedan.
A little off subject;
Having read articles on those cars really they were lemons, Geoghan spent lots of money trying to make it work and it was never quite succesfull whereas Moffat really ever only maintained the Mustang which was very succesfull. Though ofcourse it really was a cheater car with that droop nose and lots more.
I think the Jane Camaro was the best, comparitivly unmodified [Though Myles may know better], very succesful and looked like a std Chev. The big engine helped but really i dont believe it was any slower with the small block. They just turned it harder and was probably better balanced without that massive torque.

[Lola5000]

Quote

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle
Petes Super Falcon was restored and is owned by David Bowden.
Moffats very lightly raced Super Falcon was supposedly full of fatigue and was scrapped in the early 70s, any car purporting to be it would be a copy.
It would seem that Moff never liked it, it was never a patch on the Mustang.
If the Moffat car was fatigued what must have happened to Petes car which was raced for quite a while before being converted heavily into a Sports sedan.
A little off subject;
Having read articles on those cars really they were lemons, Geoghan spent lots of money trying to make it work and it was never quite succesfull whereas Moffat really ever only maintained the Mustang which was very succesfull. Though ofcourse it really was a cheater car with that droop nose and lots more.
I think the Jane Camaro was the best, comparitivly unmodified [Though Myles may know better], very succesful and looked like a std Chev. The big engine helped but really i dont believe it was any slower with the small block. They just turned it harder and was probably better balanced without that massive torque.

well pointed out.
Was the Moffat car preped by Ford?

[David Shaw]

IIRC the Moffat car was severely lightened in the shell, which destroyed what inherent stiffness it had and would have added to the fatigue.

[Ray Bell]

Pressed up in lighter gauge material, right?

I wouldn't think Pete's would have been any different. Probably better-prepared.

Remember the day at Oran Park when Pete was running away from the field? 45.5, wasn't it? "We were doing 47s at the last meeting, we expected to get a bit better this time, but we just skipped the 46s altogether," I was told. The big jump in speed came from a small change in rear axle ratio... they spent a day at the track just changing rear ends.

[cavvy]

Quote

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
No he means Petes (white) Super Falcon...are there at least two replicas then???

I was referring to the red car, the Moffat Super Falcon reportedly in WA being rebuilt.

The white car, Geoghegan/Bowden is a peice of art, not quite the Camaro, but I'm biased !!

[Leo D]

I'm just looking at the title of this thread.... Phillip Island Historics 2009..... and I'm wondering if anybody knows what we can expect to see Elfin wise at the event?

I'm hoping to see the big banger sporties.... even if they don't run.....

I'm also wondering what is happening F5000 wise, as I understand they have a spot at the AGP, even though this is not mentioned anywhere on the AGP site... can we expect to see less F5000's at the island as a result of them running at the AGP?

[Speedy27]

Quote

Originally posted by Leo D
I'm just looking at the title of this thread.... Phillip Island Historics 2009..... and I'm wondering if anybody knows what we can expect to see Elfin wise at the event?

I'm hoping to see the big banger sporties.... even if they don't run.....

I'm also wondering what is happening F5000 wise, as I understand they have a spot at the AGP, even though this is not mentioned anywhere on the AGP site... can we expect to see less F5000's at the island as a result of them running at the AGP?

The thread on Phillip Island in the forum at www.vhrr.com doesn't say anything about F5000's at this stage, although the full entry lists are usually posted before the event.

A certain highlight will be the Group C Sauber Mercedes C9 as well as the debut of a new F1 car, listed as "a late 1970's March RAM".

Of course, there was no such thing, as March departed from Grand Prix racing at the end of 1977. They made a comeback at the non-championship South African Grand Prix in 1981 in part association with John McDonald's RAM team. They were good looking cars, but totally useless. In 1982, March acquired Rothmans sponsorship and Adrian Reynard got involved with the development of the cars, but there was still little in the way of success. In 1983, McDonald took full control of the effort and the cars were thereafter called RAMs. So, either way, it's surely another 1980's F1 car that will be there?!