430 replies to this topic

[potmotr]

This week's Autosport magazine features a poll where 217 world championship F1 drivers were asked to vote for the 10 greatest F1 drivers.

The top is much as you'd expect, but the other rankings are sometimes quite bizarre.

For instance:

No David Couldhard! Or Nick Heidfeld! Or Martin Brundle!

But... 76th equal: Mark Webber and... Kazuki Nakajima (among others)!

This places Webber (and Coulthard, and Heidfeld and Brundle) beneath Pedro Lamy (75th!) and Liuzzi (74th!) and Stefano Modena (72nd!).

Aguri Suzuki (63!!!!) is ranked ahead of Johnny Herbert, Chris Amon and Derek Warwick, and only one place ahead of Denny Hulme!

Are these ex-F1 drivers insane?!

I think thepoll reflects drivers who were most visible rather than the best.


Anyway, here is the list:

76=: Peter Collins, Luigi Villoresi, Mark Webber, Mike Hailwood, Pedro Rodriguez, Eddie Irvine, Andrea De Cesaris and Kazuki Nakajima.
75: Pedro Lamy
74: Tonio Liuzzi
73: Harry Schell
72: Stefano Modena
71: Carlos Pace
70: Wolfgang von Trips
69: Maurice Trintignant
68: Hans Herrmann
67: Derek Warwick
66: Johnny Herbert
65: Jean-Pierre Beltoise
64: Chris Amon
63: Aguri Suzuki
62: Denny Hulme
61: Bruce McLaren
60: Tom Pryce
59: Felipe Massa
58: Jo Siffert
57: Alex Zanardi
56: Tony Maggs
55: Henri Pescarolo
54: Mike Hawthorn
53: Elio De Angelis
52: Tony Brooks
51: Juan Pablo Montoya
50: Michele Alboreto
49: Jacques Laffite
48: Lorenzo Bandini
47: Jody Scheckter
46: Piero Taruffi (I'd never heard of this guy!)
45: Damon Hill
44: Didier Pironi
43: Robert Kubica
42: Jean Alesi
41: Jacques Villeneuve
40: Jacky Ickx
39: Riccardo Patrese
38: Jean Behra
37: Gerhard Berger
36: Clay Regazzoni
35: Stefan Bellof
34: Carlos Reutemann
33: Phil Hill
32: Giuseppe Farina
31: Alan Jones
30: Jenson Button
29: Francois Cervert
28: Dan Gurney
27: Jose Froilan Gonzalez
26: Sebastian Vettel
25: Keke Rosberg
24: James Hunt
23: John Surtees
22: Kimi Raikkonen
21: Graham Hill
20: Mario Andretti
19: Ronnie Petterson
18: Jack Brabham
17: Lewis Hamilton
16: Alberto Ascari
15: Mika Hakkinen
14: Jochen Rindt
13: Nelson Piquet (Snr!)
12: Emerson Fittipaldi
11: Nigel Mansell
10: Gilles Villeneuve
9: Fernando Alonso
8: Sir Stirling Moss
7: Niki Lauda
6: Sir Jackie Stewart
5: Jim Clark
4: Alain Prost
3: Juan Manuel Fangio
2: Michael Schumacher
1: Ayrton Senna

[santori]

I think it reflects the fact that most drivers know very little about the history of their sport.

[potmotr]

I think it reflects the fact that most drivers know very little about the history of their sport.

The top 20 or so in the poll are about what you'd expect.

But the omissions and lower third of the poll reflect some pretty weird trends.

I mean, Mark Webber has won two races in a very impressive fashion and has shown speed throughout his quite long F1 career.

While I think about it, no Jarno Trulli either!

Or Ralf Schumacher!

Or Giancarlo Fisichella!

[santori]

Or Heinz-Harald Frentzen or Rene Arnoux.

[craftverk]

Seriously, F1 drivers past or present need to just stick to driving/talking about driving. What an outrageous poll.

Edited by craftverk, 10 December 2009 - 14:57.

[DOF_power]

On what criteria ?!

Sheer driving (speed + adaptability), consistency, technical skills, social-communication skills, preparation, foresight ?!

[Snap Matt]

29: Francois Cervert

Maybe the spelling needs changing to look a bit less like "pervert"!

[santori]

Some of the voters were obviously joking but I'm surprised enough settled on the same joke to pop some of the names up there. And, apart from 76ast, without positions being tied. Did they have to vote for their own top ten or for more?

[gwk]

It would be interesting to know how many votes each driver got. In a poll like this, a vote or two given to a buddy or as a joke will make a huge difference in rank among drivers with few votes.

[potmotr]

Or Heinz-Harald Frentzen or Rene Arnoux.

Yep, we could almost make a list on those who weren't in there.

It is insane that Alex Zanardi is at 57 while so many are left out.

Yes, he was great in Champcars, but never achieved anything in F1 at all.

There's no Stefan Johansson either.

[potmotr]

It would be interesting to know how many votes each driver got. In a poll like this, a vote or two given to a buddy or as a joke will make a huge difference in rank among drivers with few votes.

From the magazine:

HOW WE DID IT...
AUTOSPORT invited drivers who have raced in the Formula 1 World Drivers' Championship (including those who raced under F2 rules in 1952-53), to vote for their top 10 'greatest' drivers of the world championship era. The definition of the term 'greatest' was left open to the voters to interpret for themselves. There was only one condition - they couldn't vote for themselves. Each top 10 was then scored on a 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 basis to create the overall list. In the event of a tie, a countback system was used to decide the order.

[GIBF1]

How the hell is Vettel that high ?



Has Liuzzi got some incriminating pictures or something ?

Edited by GIBF1, 10 December 2009 - 15:09.

[DOF_power]

I'd honestly rank Schumacher over Senna.

[Gilles4Ever]

That is even more shocking, for a driver to even make the list means someone has put them in their top 10 and they couldn't vote for themselves.

How can Nakajima realistically make anybodies top 10 drivers of all time????

[DOF_power]

That is even more shocking, for a driver to even make the list means someone has put them in their top 10 and they couldn't vote for themselves.

How can Nakajima realistically make anybodies top 10 drivers of all time????

Lack of knowledge about the history of the sport.

Edited by DOF_power, 10 December 2009 - 15:11.

[GIBF1]

That is even more shocking, for a driver to even make the list means someone has put them in their top 10 and they couldn't vote for themselves.

How can Nakajima realistically make anybodies top 10 drivers of all time????

I think they've been on the sherry

[Don_Humpador]

What a terrible poll.

[GIBF1]

I know he's not everyone's cup of tea but where's Rubens ?

Ridiculous

[Snap Matt]

I would interpret the results as saying that somebody put Pedro Lamy ninth in their list, in which case where do you go after him for tenth? Alternatively it could be that more than one person included them in tenth place, but that seems even less likely.

[potmotr]

How can Nakajima realistically make anybodies top 10 drivers of all time????

Especially ahead of Coulthard, Brundle, Heidfeld, Trulli etc etc.

I reckon some of this has to do with the low numbers involved to actually make the top 75.

For instance, a driver might only need a handful of top ten votes to get in.

I reckon voting for your countrymen might make a difference.

So, say, Takuma Sato, Aguri Suzuki, Sakon Yamamoto, Kazuki Nakajima and Yuji Ide all throw in Japanese drivers at the back end of their top ten.

Soon Suzuki gets elevated in a disproportionate way.

[potmotr]

I know he's not everyone's cup of tea but where's Rubens ?

Ridiculous

Jesus, I hadn't even thought of Rubens not being there!

Now that is totally crazy, the man has won 11 races and is the longest serving driver of all time!

[grunge]

clark behind senna and prost..wow

[Snap Matt]

Especially ahead of Coulthard, Brundle, Heidfeld, Trulli etc etc.

I reckon some of this has to do with the low numbers involved to actually make the top 75.

For instance, a driver might only need a handful of top ten votes to get in.

I reckon voting for your countrymen might make a difference.

So, say, Takuma Sato, Aguri Suzuki, Sakon Yamamoto, Kazuki Nakajima and Yuji Ide all throw in Japanese drivers at the back end of their top ten.

Soon Suzuki gets elevated in a disproportionate way.

Or indeed he could have been as influential as Senna in getting a handful of Japanese drivers interested in motorsport and for them his contribution was greater than that of Prost or Clark or whoever.

[Rob]

Harry Schell ahead of René Arnoux?!!

[kar]

I think that's a pretty damn good top-ten myself.

I'm not sure I'd put Alonso in there yet though.

[potmotr]

Damon Hill in 45th is far too low for me.

[Gareth]

How can Nakajima realistically make anybodies top 10 drivers of all time????

Saturo will have had a vote ...

[Rob]

Derek Warwick ahead of Wolfgang von Trips?!

[Owen]

I think that's a pretty damn good top-ten myself.

I'm not sure I'd put Alonso in there yet though.

I agree. Yes, honestly!

[potmotr]

Pedro Lamy 75th!

Who would seriously put Lamy in their top 10 of anything?

Perhaps the former F1 drivers in the Peugeot sportscar team all decided to put him 1st in their rankings.

[potmotr]

Autosport has launched their own mini-website to showcase their weird poll!

http://f1greatestdri....autosport.com/

Site is very cool, great pictures.

You can also vote on whether you think the drivers should be higher or lower. Now that's cool!

Right, this won't take long, Aguri, where are you!

Edited by potmotr, 10 December 2009 - 15:40.

[Gareth]

Pedro Lamy 75th!

Who would seriously put Lamy in their top 10 of anything?

He's number 1 in my: Top 10 Drivers Whose Names are an Anagram of "Rap Melody".

[Risil]

If I were an F1 driver and asked to contribute to some ridiculous ranking of drivers who weren't as good as me, I'd put some joke answers in too.

Edited by Risil, 10 December 2009 - 15:44.

[potmotr]

Oh, the http://f1greatestdri....autosport.com/ microsite only covers the top 40.

Oh well Damon, I'll give you a slap on back next time I see you.

You deserve better!

[nordschleife]

Peter Collins, effectively 1956 WDC, 76th? Behind Lamy and Liuzzi?

Pedro Rodriguez = 76th

Guess I'll have to put f1 drivers' opinions on my ignore list. Sad, really.

[Snap Matt]

He's number 1 in my: Top 10 Drivers Whose Names are an Anagram of "Rap Melody".

Closely followed by the less remembered but exceptionally well qualified Dr Maypole.

[potmotr]

I reckon some of the numbers involved in this poll are actually quite small.

Clearly a driver needs a heap of votes to make the top 10.

But to make the outer reaches of the top 75 would need only a handful of votes I reckon.

They should have pushed the net out to 100.

Perhaps then we might have seen Perry McCarthy above Claudio Langes.

[Bauble]

Like any 'Old Fogey' I am amazed at some of the results, but it is unsuprising when you consider that the bulk of the votes would have come from relatively young drivers, who probably have little knowledge of the sport. The qualities required for 'greatness' will obviously vary with who you ask, but to rate people like Button, Vettel, Hamilton etc as great is a travesty. What have they done except win a few races? Hardly qualifies a 'great' in my book. That is not to knock them or decry their results, but I can not remember Jenson doing anything remotely exciting or awe inspiring.
For true greatness you need to look at the drivers from the earlier days, when the sport was very dangerous and the driver was more important than the car.

Personally; Fangio, Moss, Hawthorn, Behra, Gilles Villenueve, Gonzales, Pedro Rodriguez, Rene Arnoux, Niki Lauda and Michael Schumacher. (Told you I was an Old Fogey)

[giacomo]

Off-season = greatest ever poll time = excessive waste of paper, ink and bandwidth.

Can't wait for the inevitable Senna vs Prost thread here.

[potmotr]

Fair play though, getting around 217 former F1 drivers must have been a rather time consuming task.

I wonder how many they weren't able to get.

[depailler on tyrrell p34]

76=: Peter Collins, Luigi Villoresi, Mark Webber, Mike Hailwood, Pedro Rodriguez, Eddie Irvine, Andrea De Cesaris and Kazuki Nakajima.
75: Pedro Lamy
74: Tonio Liuzzi
73: Harry Schell
72: Stefano Modena
71: Carlos Pace
70: Wolfgang von Trips
69: Maurice Trintignant
68: Hans Herrmann
67: Derek Warwick
66: Johnny Herbert
65: Jean-Pierre Beltoise
64: Chris Amon
63: Aguri Suzuki
62: Denny Hulme
61: Bruce McLaren
60: Tom Pryce
59: Felipe Massa
58: Jo Siffert
57: Alex Zanardi
56: Tony Maggs
55: Henri Pescarolo
54: Mike Hawthorn
53: Elio De Angelis
52: Tony Brooks
51: Juan Pablo Montoya
50: Michele Alboreto
49: Jacques Laffite
48: Lorenzo Bandini
47: Jody Scheckter
46: Piero Taruffi (I'd never heard of this guy!)
45: Damon Hill
44: Didier Pironi
43: Robert Kubica
42: Jean Alesi
41: Jacques Villeneuve
40: Jacky Ickx
39: Riccardo Patrese
38: Jean Behra
37: Gerhard Berger
36: Clay Regazzoni
35: Stefan Bellof
34: Carlos Reutemann
33: Phil Hill
32: Giuseppe Farina
31: Alan Jones
30: Jenson Button
29: Francois Cervert
28: Dan Gurney
27: Jose Froilan Gonzalez
26: Sebastian Vettel
25: Keke Rosberg
24: James Hunt
23: John Surtees
22: Kimi Raikkonen
21: Graham Hill
20: Mario Andretti
19: Ronnie Petterson
18: Jack Brabham
17: Lewis Hamilton
16: Alberto Ascari
15: Mika Hakkinen
14: Jochen Rindt
13: Nelson Piquet (Snr!)
12: Emerson Fittipaldi
11: Nigel Mansell
10: Gilles Villeneuve
9: Fernando Alonso
8: Sir Stirling Moss
7: Niki Lauda
6: Sir Jackie Stewart
5: Jim Clark
4: Alain Prost
3: Juan Manuel Fangio
2: Michael Schumacher
1: Ayrton Senna


graham hill only 21st? a man that have won monaco gp 5time, 2 world champion, le mans and indianapolis!

hamilton and gilless villeneuve are too high!..also jochen rindt...Button in front of jones?! and lole?
berger and kubica in front of scheckter?

montoya in ahead of bruce mclaren?
there is kazuki nakajima? and where is patrick depailler?!
trulli?
kimi raikkonen 22?

I think that these drives don't understand nothing...

[santori]

From the magazine:

HOW WE DID IT...
In the event of a tie, a countback system was used to decide the order.

I wonder what they counted back. Time of the entry?

[potmotr]

I wonder what they counted back. Time of the entry?

World championship points, or lack thereof?

[depailler on tyrrell p34]

jacques laffitte is also too low..

[milestone 11]

I reckon some of the numbers involved in this poll are actually quite small.

Clearly a driver needs a heap of votes to make the top 10.

But to make the outer reaches of the top 75 would need only a handful of votes I reckon.

They should have pushed the net out to 100.

Perhaps then we might have seen Perry McCarthy above Claudio Langes.

Potmotr, I think that 83 drivers in total have been given a vote by someone from the list, that's why it's not a question of pushing out the net to 100. It seems, that as there are so many in position 76, that each one of the drivers in this position gained a solitary vote.
It sure through up some anomolies.

[grunge]

I think that's a pretty damn good top-ten myself.

I'm not sure I'd put Alonso in there yet though.

the arrangement of the top ten for me is totally wrong..

theres no way i can see anyone putting senna/prost in front of one Jim clark.or putting senna/schumi in front of fangio..Moss is too down as well..id definitely put him ahead of stewart

and i dont know how can anyone put alonso right along the names mentioned above.not yet anyway

Edited by grunge, 10 December 2009 - 16:16.

[milestone 11]

Saturo will have had a vote ...

It's not Satoru though, it's bloody Kazuki.

Edited by milestone 11, 10 December 2009 - 16:51.

[potmotr]

Potmotr, I think that 83 drivers in total have been given a vote by someone from the list, that's why it's not a question of pushing out the net to 100. It seems, that as there are so many in position 76, that each one of the drivers in this position gained a solitary vote.
It sure through up some anomolies.

I'm hopeless when it comes to statistical analysis.

Perhaps someone could breakdown how 217 top 10 votes breaks down.

[Snap Matt]

I reckon some of the numbers involved in this poll are actually quite small.

Clearly a driver needs a heap of votes to make the top 10.

But to make the outer reaches of the top 75 would need only a handful of votes I reckon.

They should have pushed the net out to 100.

Perhaps then we might have seen Perry McCarthy above Claudio Langes.

80% of the votes will have gone on the top 20% of the drivers... guesstimated of course.

I bet that the large number of joint 76th placed drivers all got a single 10th place. 75th could be a single 9th place vote although perhaps it was two tenth place votes beaten by a single 9th place for 74th...

I would assume that there weren't enough names mentioned to stretch to a 77th place.

[milestone 11]

I'm hopeless when it comes to statistical analysis.

Perhaps someone could breakdown how 217 top 10 votes breaks down.

Each of the voters top ten were scored 10-1 then all votes were added together.

Edited by milestone 11, 10 December 2009 - 16:21.