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Brabham Repco or Repco Brabham?


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#1 Chris_Noto

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Posted 24 April 2000 - 21:43

Friends, I have always thought of Black Jack's 1967 cars as "Brabham-Repco"s, considering the proper nomenclature to be of the "Marque-Engine" format. I've notice, amongst the Grand Prix Legends community, that the "Repco-Brabham" useage is more common, even in GPL documentation.

Looking back at Peter Hoggs' 1967 Brands Hatch Formula 1 race report, I notice, to my chagrin, that Hogg also uses "Repco-Brabham"!

Have I been wrong for the last thirty years? Can anyone elucidate?

Thanks much,
Chris Noto


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#2 Keir

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Posted 24 April 2000 - 23:09

The team was officially known as Repco-Brabham. When speaking about the cars in conjunction with the competition it is acceptable to refer to he cars(not the team) as Brabham-Repcos.

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#3 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 April 2000 - 04:45

Here's why:
Through the fifties the Repco organisation had a lot to do with the Australian racing scene. Their PBR brake division used to re-engineer brakes to be much superior to the best on the 250Fs etc (this was done for people like Stan Jones with the Maybach, Ted Gray with the Lou Abrahams Tornado, Keith Rilstone with the incredible Eclipse Zephyr and so on), they made and sold a revised cylinder head for Holden engines which was convenient for Speedway in midgets and for replicas of Cooper Bristols at a time when Bristol engines were scarce.
Jack formed an alliance with them when he started building cars, and they supplied some parts (a minor issue - the likes of Hardy Spicer U-joints etc). They were from that time (ie. from 1962) properly known as Repco-Brabhams. Repco also bought the patterns from Coventry Climax to make all-new FPF engines in Australia. These, tragically, have now been thrown out!
So when they Repco Brabhams came to be fitted with Repco engines (starting with the Oldsmobile-block version and going through to the CAC-cast magnesium block version), they could hardly be known as Repco-Brabham-Repcos, could they?
Old Jack always had his eye on the commercial side of things, but life does get complicated. I don't really know if the later F1 cars, the BT33s & 34s, should have been known as Repco-Brabhams, but the cars sold for lesser formulae were.

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#4 Chris_Noto

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Posted 25 April 2000 - 06:21

Thanks so much for your speedy and very helpful replies! Ray, you spin the yarn very nicely, indeed.

Chris.


#5 Don Capps

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Posted 25 April 2000 - 07:56

Actually, according to a press release in the 1965/1966 era it was "Repco Brabham" the hyphen being absent. Ray probably has it somewhere. I do recall that it was how the FJ cars were referred to as early as 1962/1963. Of course, that there was a Brabham marque at all is due to the unfortunate ability of the initials for Motor Racing Devlopments - MRD - to delight fans in France as they cheered the team... Posted Image

The customer FJ, F3 & F2 cars were "officially" called "Repco Brabham-Ford" by Brabham and the Tasman cars "Repco Brabham-Climax" even though as Ray said, the FPF's used were often domestic products made by Repco.

Keep in mind, Repco Brabham beat BMW Williams to the grid by many a decade so, as Ray points out, those who pay the bills aren't exactly new to arranging the order of things. I think that starting in 1969 or 1970, when the use of the Repco engines was dropped that "Repco" dropped off the title of the cars. I don't recall seeing any reference to "Repco Brabham-Ford/Cosworth" in any of my files. So, when the BT34 came on the scene, strictly "Brabham?" Ray?

As an aside, in US racing, for many, many years in "Big Car" racing the engine always got top billing and the chassis little if any notice. Indeed, in contemporary reports from the 1930's, you find all sort of information about an entrant at Indy, but virtually zero about the chassis unless it was unusual.

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[This message has been edited by Don Capps (edited 04-25-2000).]

#6 Dennis David

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Posted 26 April 2000 - 09:13

Don, that's what the French say everytime they get beat!

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#7 Don Capps

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Posted 26 April 2000 - 10:25

From what I recall, when Denny Hulme took the FJ MRD to France for its first race on the Continent, the announcer was almost in hysterics trying NOT to say what came naturally... He kept saying, "EMMMMM ARRRRRR DEEEEEE...." and giggling...

That was taken as an omen by all concerned that perhaps a name change was needed!

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Don Capps

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#8 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 April 2000 - 10:53

I'll eliminate the hyphen in future... There was one MRD came to Australia (It was driven initially by Gavin Youl and won the FJr title) and many many Brabhams. Repco was here all the time...

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[This message has been edited by Ray Bell (edited 04-26-2000).]

#9 Michael Ferner

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 13:17

Every "Brabham" was really a Repco-Brabham until 1969, that was the official name of the marque. And that's also why there is no such thing as a Formula One "Brabham/Repco", as it was a Repco-Brabham chassis with a Repco-Brabham engine, hence a Repco-Brabham pur sang, like a Ferrari or an Alfa Romeo with an inhouse engine. The correct name for the car of Natalie Goodwin is Repco-Brabham/Ford.

 

And, yes, RIP Natalie Goodwin. A fine racer, indeed!



#10 2F-001

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 16:23

Every "Brabham" was really a Repco-Brabham until 1969, that was the official name of the marque. And that's also why there is no such thing as a Formula One "Brabham/Repco", as it was a Repco-Brabham chassis with a Repco-Brabham engine, hence a Repco-Brabham pur sang, like a Ferrari or an Alfa Romeo with an inhouse engine. The correct name for the car of Natalie Goodwin is Repco-Brabham/Ford.

Point taken - and thank you Michael.

I'm not sure if this something I had forgotten or (shamefully) had never fully taken on board.

Never too late to learn or be corrected!

 

I remember, as a child, wondering why the Brabham F1 cars were routinely described - or so I thought back then - with the engine name first, as opposed to (for example) Lotus-Ford or Cooper-BRM. But it gets confusing/misleading when, say, Lotus-Ford etc in F3 is listed along with Repco-Brabham but with no mention of an engine description for the latter, when it's actually a Ford or whatever else.


Edited by 2F-001, 27 August 2019 - 16:25.


#11 Michael Ferner

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 18:32

No reason to be ashamed - for some reason, Repco-Brabham never caught on, and the cars were mostly called "Brabham". Guess it was people's desire to keep it simple.

 

As for confusing/misleading descriptions and designations, yes, I agree - that's why I always use a slash to add the engine manufacturer to the chassis manufacturer, like in Lotus/Ford. Makes it a bit clearer. Mind you, many years down the line people may not have the general knowledge to know that Benz is not the engine of a Mercedes, or Romeo the engine of an Alfa! I have even seen a listing of Indy winners, with Marmon as chassis and Wasp as engine make...



#12 ReWind

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 15:21

Every "Brabham" was really a Repco-Brabham until 1969, that was the official name of the marque.

 

I am not convinced.

 

In his book “Brabham: The Grand Prix Cars” the late Alan Henry wrote about the 1961/62 situation (p.20):

“The Repco company … had space available in its workshop in Victoria Road, Surbiton. Eventually … it was decided that the cars should be known as ‘Brabhams’. In fact, as a result of a very minor sponsorship deal with Repco, the production single seater racing cars were always officially dubbed Repco-Brabhams. It was, unwittingly, the portent of exciting developments to come – and not a small degree of confusion when it came to describing some of the team’s later products.”

 

For me a sponsor’s name is just that. So it does not define the name of the car. When Brabham named the cars Repco-Brabhams, from my point of view it meant Brabhams sponsored by Repco. Would you, Michael, imply that Brabham’s customers drove Repco-Brabhams, too, although they did not gain anything from the Repco sponsorship?

For me the customers drove Brabhams as did the drivers of the works team.

It would be interesting to know in which way the cars were described in the contracts between Motor Racing Developments or the Brabham Racing Organisation (no Repco in there as well) and the customers.


Edited by ReWind, 29 August 2019 - 08:17.


#13 doc knutsen

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 16:23

I am not convinced.

In his book “Brabham: The Grand Prix Cars” the late Alan Henry wrote about the 1961/62 situation (p.20):
“The Repco company … had space available in its workshop in Victoria Road, Surbiton. Eventually … it was decided that the cars should be known as ‘Brabhams’. In fact, as a result of a very minor sponsorship deal with Repco, the production single seater racing cars were always officially dubbed Repco-Brabhams. It was, unwittingly, the portent of exciting developments to come – and not a small degree of confusion when it came to describing some of the team’s later products.”

For me a sponsor’s name is just that. So it does not define the name of the car. When Brabham named the cars Repco-Brabhams, from my point of view it meant Brabhams sponsored by Repco. Would you, Michael, imply that Brabham’s customers drove Repco-Brabhams, too, although they did not gain anything from the Repco sponsorship?
For me the customers drove Brabhams as did the drivers of the works team.
It would be interesting to know in which way the cars were described in the contracts between Motor Racing Developments or the Brabham Racing Organisation (no Repco in there as well) and the customers.


Michael is correct. The cars were referred to as "Repco-Brabham" in the programmes and media reports at the time. The cars were officially "Repco-Brabhams". I once owned a Repco-Brabham BT21B, acquired from Sweden for the princely sum of £ 750,-...and sold it on to Lodge Corner Agencies a couple of years later, making a huge profit...selling it for £1100,- :drunk:

As for Nathalie Goodwin, my memory of her is watching her racing the F3 Repco-Brabham wearing black Nylon stretch pants, and a short-sleeved black shirt. This would have been in late 1967, after the Bandini tragedy at Monaco, and I was horrified that any racing driver would wear anything Nylon, given the fire risk of those days. Different times.

#14 Michael Ferner

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 16:58

I am not convinced.

In his book “Brabham: The Grand Prix Cars” the late Alan Henry wrote about the 1961/62 situation (p.20):
“The Repco company … had space available in its workshop in Victoria Road, Surbiton. Eventually … it was decided that the cars should be known as ‘Brabhams’. In fact, as a result of a very minor sponsorship deal with Repco, the production single seater racing cars were always officially dubbed Repco-Brabhams. It was, unwittingly, the portent of exciting developments to come – and not a small degree of confusion when it came to describing some of the team’s later products.”

For me a sponsor’s name is just that. So it does not define the name of the car. When Brabham named the cars Repco-Brabhams, from my point of view it meant Brabhams sponsored by Repco. Would you, Michael, imply that Brabham’s customers drove Repco-Brabhams, too, although they did not gain anything from the Repco sponsorship?
For me the customers drove Brabhams as did the drivers of the works team.
It would be interesting to know in which way the cars were described in the contracts between Motor Racing Developments or the Brabham Racing Organisation (no Repco in there as well) and the customers.


Don't forget that the company's name was Motor Racing Developments, not Brabham. Following your logic, that was just a "sponsor's name", too!

#15 ReWind

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 07:13

I am aware of the presence of Motor Racing Developments (as you can see in my post).
Following my logic MRD was not a sponsor's name. MRD was the owner and/or the entrant of Brabham cars.
So: Brabham sponsored by Repco, entered by BRO, owned by MRD.

#16 Tim Murray

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 08:16

The most recent posts in this thread (#9 to #15) have been moved from the Natalie Goodwin thread.

#17 Doug Nye

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 08:26

In period we rendered the Repco-powered Brabham cars' title as Brabham-Repco, simply to follow the convention long set for us by Lotus-Climax, Cooper-Climax, JBW-Maserati...etc.  The production cars for minor Formulae were - like the F1 cars - badged as Repco Brabhams yet reported conveniently as Brabham-Fords or Brabham-BRMs, chassis title first - hyphen - engine ID.

 

Nobody from MRD Brabham ever (to my knowledge) queried the practise. Not commercial manager Alain Fenn nor Phil Kerr during his Brabham years, nor Ron Tauranac - who was given to questioning EVERYTHING - nor Jack himself.  The badges said one thing - we enthusiasts, owners, journos in general, another.  

 

Does it matter?  Hardly.

 

DCN



#18 Roger Clark

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 10:09

I looked through the Goodwood Easter Monday programmes. The only mention of Repco that I found was in 1966 where Denny Hulme was entered in a Repco Brabham Cosworth. Jack was in the same race in a Brabham Honda. All the privateers and all the Formula 1 cars in earlier years were simply Brabhams, followed by the engine.

#19 Michael Ferner

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 13:17

I am aware of the presence of Motor Racing Developments (as you can see in my post).
Following my logic MRD was not a sponsor's name. MRD was the owner and/or the entrant of Brabham cars.
So: Brabham sponsored by Repco, entered by BRO, owned by MRD.


Misunderstanding: not MRD is the "sponsor's name" according to your logic, but Brabham. Not "Brabham named the cars Repco-Brabhams", but MRD named them! They (i.e. Brabham and Tauranac) were building the cars as MRD, and marketed them under a different name - whether it's Brabham or Repco(-)Brabham doesn't really matter. I wouldn't call it a "sponsor's name", it's just a choice by the company to use a different name (somewhat forced by foreign language sensitivities); they are perfectly entitled to do so - much like Daimler(-Benz) calling their cars Mercedes(-Benz), or Nordyke-Marmon calling theirs Marmon. As Doug said, nobody really cared, some things sort themselves out rather nicely.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 29 August 2019 - 13:29.


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#20 Michael Ferner

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 13:24

I looked through the Goodwood Easter Monday programmes. The only mention of Repco that I found was in 1966 where Denny Hulme was entered in a Repco Brabham Cosworth. Jack was in the same race in a Brabham Honda. All the privateers and all the Formula 1 cars in earlier years were simply Brabhams, followed by the engine.


Race organisers were as confused as us punters. I recently saw an entry list for the 1970 South African GP, with Jack and Rolf entered in Repco Brabham Fords...

#21 Doug Nye

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 21:34

Aah yes - but not "Brabham-Repco Fords" which would have been more confusing...

 

DCN



#22 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 23:39

I have heard Jack himself referring the the cars as Repco Brabhams. This was at least in reference to the Repco engined Brabhams.

Though as others have said Repco was a major sponsor for most of his career. And yes MRD was the team!



#23 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 23:48

MRD was the business which built the cars...

Was it not that BRO (Brabham Racing Organisation) was the team?

#24 MarkBisset

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Posted 30 August 2019 - 03:37

Ray is correct in saying the Repco/Brabham relationship was incremental, I suspect it started in his early speedway days with a few freebies but without doubt it surged from the moment Jack’s FPF’s entered the Repco Engine Lab in Richmond under Mike Gasking’s tender loving care.

From what I can see the ‘BT2’s were not ‘Repco Brabham’ nor was Jack’s F1 BT3 but by the end of the Australian summer of 1963, his BT4 ‘Tasman’ car was so badged as, perhaps were the similar Stillwell and McKay cars.

See this link; https://primotipo.co.../point-of-sale/

Australian Autosportsman in July 1963 cite the batch of FJ’s to be built that year as ‘Repco Brabhams’ with Denny’s BT6 win at the Aintree 200 meeting on 27 April the first win for these cars- he won the ‘Spring Whizz Race’ !

It would be intriguing to know the last Brabham delivered with a ‘Repco Brabham’ nose badge!- the BT31 ‘69 Tasman car maybe or BT25 Indy machines?

There were a few different chassis plates used by MRD Ltd down the years but ‘quintessential’ sixties plates don’t have the Brabham name on them just MRD Ltd, address and model and chassis number. Ron’s MRD car spec sheets often don’t have the Brabham name on them either...

The Repco Brabham Engines were built by Repco Brabham Engines Pty Ltd and ‘badged’ on the cam-covers as ‘Repco Brabham’ other than the last few built in 1979/70 after the commercial relationship between Jack and Repco ended- these motors were badged ‘Repco’.

I think the last bit of commerce between Jack and Repco was Peter Revson’s ‘Indy 200’ win at Indy Racing Park on 27 July 1969 when Peters BT25 Repco ‘760’ 4.2 won a heat and overall from some big hitters. A nice ending and some proof of the fundamental soundness of the 60 Series heads...

So, what to call the cars? I reckon Repco would have been happy with, for example, Jacks ‘67 Tasman machine being described as ‘Repco Brabham BT23A Repco Brabham ‘640’ V8’, it’s a bit of a mouthful tho really!

Mark

#25 Joe Bosworth

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Posted 30 August 2019 - 05:12

I go to Jack's autobiographic "The Jack Brabham Story", authored by Sir Jack with Doug Nye and published in 2004.  The entire book is written in the first person, as from Jack's own hand or at least his lips.

 

The issue of naming the BT19 first had its own chapter 13, titled "Champions of thee World". The first printed chapter page includes a photo with, "This was the new Repco Brabham BT19 V8's encouraging debut in the non-Championship 1966 Grand Prix at East London.

 

Throughout chapter 13 and continuing through chapter 14 the BT19 and its successor the BT20 was always referred to as either BTXX Repco Brabham or just plain BTXX Repco.  This  convention was continued for chapter 15 describing 1968 season.  The 1968 Indianapolis BT25 is described in detail and referred to as Repco Brabham BT25.

 

On nearby pages other things such as the F2 car was always referred to as Brabham Honda.

 

A picture of their F1 transporter for the period had large sign writing identifying it as having Esso sponsorship and being of the "Brabham Racing Organisation"

 

Unless Doug Nye can chime in at this point I personally will leave it to Jack's writings as the final word on this matter and encourage others to follow suit.

 

Regards  :drunk:



#26 Roger Clark

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Posted 30 August 2019 - 06:45

It might be appropriate to quote the letter from a reader, Motor Sport November 1965.

Sir,
I am feet-upwise perusing the 1965 Gold Cup Meeting report. I am seeing that a device called Repco-Brabham-Cosworth-Ford has booked into fourth slot, and I am thinking how kinky can you get. Man, these titles get worse, like as if some boozed-up nut has thought them up messagewise. And man, The August Bank Holiday at Brands. The McLaren-Elva-Oldsmobile-V8. Jeeze! How much longer I thinks must this jazz continue. The Boddy Man must put the finger on the Continental Correspondent. He's the one. Groovy with these fantabulous names like for kicks. I am now diving like crazy from the pad for my LucasGoodyear-Zenith-Girling-Autolite-SmithsMobil-Ford/Zephyr 6 to make the Pony Express station downtown in order that you may dig me.
Rotton Park. B.H. Shilvock
[By gad Sir! - ED]

#27 Terry Walker

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Posted 02 September 2019 - 03:21

Ray is correct in saying the Repco/Brabham relationship was incremental, I suspect it started in his early speedway days with a few freebies but without doubt it surged from the moment Jack’s FPF’s entered the Repco Engine Lab in Richmond under Mike Gasking’s tender loving care.

From what I can see the ‘BT2’s were not ‘Repco Brabham’ nor was Jack’s F1 BT3 but by the end of the Australian summer of 1963, his BT4 ‘Tasman’ car was so badged as, perhaps were the similar Stillwell and McKay cars.

See this link; https://primotipo.co.../point-of-sale/

Australian Autosportsman in July 1963 cite the batch of FJ’s to be built that year as ‘Repco Brabhams’ with Denny’s BT6 win at the Aintree 200 meeting on 27 April the first win for these cars- he won the ‘Spring Whizz Race’ !

It would be intriguing to know the last Brabham delivered with a ‘Repco Brabham’ nose badge!- the BT31 ‘69 Tasman car maybe or BT25 Indy machines?

There were a few different chassis plates used by MRD Ltd down the years but ‘quintessential’ sixties plates don’t have the Brabham name on them just MRD Ltd, address and model and chassis number. Ron’s MRD car spec sheets often don’t have the Brabham name on them either...

The Repco Brabham Engines were built by Repco Brabham Engines Pty Ltd and ‘badged’ on the cam-covers as ‘Repco Brabham’ other than the last few built in 1979/70 after the commercial relationship between Jack and Repco ended- these motors were badged ‘Repco’.

I think the last bit of commerce between Jack and Repco was Peter Revson’s ‘Indy 200’ win at Indy Racing Park on 27 July 1969 when Peters BT25 Repco ‘760’ 4.2 won a heat and overall from some big hitters. A nice ending and some proof of the fundamental soundness of the 60 Series heads...

So, what to call the cars? I reckon Repco would have been happy with, for example, Jacks ‘67 Tasman machine being described as ‘Repco Brabham BT23A Repco Brabham ‘640’ V8’, it’s a bit of a mouthful tho really!

Mark

 

The car used by Jack Brabham in the 1962 AGP at Caversham and for the rest of the 1962-3 down-under season was clearly badged on the nose Repco Brabham.

 

As I see it, the early cars were manufactured by MRD, the marque was Repco Brabham, and the team cars were raced by BRO.



#28 Joe Bosworth

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Posted 02 September 2019 - 05:37

Terry

 

In your post #227 above you quote:

"There were a few different chassis plates used by MRD Ltd down the years but ‘quintessential’ sixties plates don’t have the Brabham name on them just MRD Ltd, address and model and chassis number. Ron’s MRD car spec sheets often don’t have the Brabham name on them either..."

 

For some 40 years I owned the third BT15 built.  Its chassis plate on the first line had "Brabham", the second line "Racing Developments Ltd" and on the last line had "F3-03-65"

 

I don't know if that February 1965 built car was "quintessential" or not as 01 and 02 were factory raced cars and 03 was set aside for AARC's Geoff Sykes to award to its Australian Driver of the year who ended up being Jim Sullivan.  I recieved the car very shortly after Jim's usage.

 

Along the way I also ended up with setup sheets published on green factory letter headed paper for 1966.  Its letterhead is as MRD.  All of the cars referenced including such as BT21

Are described as being Repco Brabham's.

 

Relative to postings by others I note some are using hyphenated usages.  I can find no reasonably factory sourced references that use the hyphen.  I strongly suspect that any such found are due to the reasonable ineptitude of the magazine etc authors.

 

Regards again.



#29 MarkBisset

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Posted 02 September 2019 - 06:31

Terry,

It’s neither here nor there but a cursory cruise through some of the reference sites shows works Brabhams entered by Brabham Racing Organisation, Motor Racing Developments, Brabham Racing Developments and in Australia Ecurie Vitesse and Jack Brabham...and no doubt more

Mark

#30 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 September 2019 - 08:02

Ecurie Vitesse...

Jack Brabham, Brian Muir and Max Stahl used this entrant name. I will check on its origins, but it was an arrangement between the three of them.

#31 moffspeed

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 15:15

So was the road car a Brabham Viva or a Viva Brabham ??

 

On the subject of which, when I owned a Chrysler/Talbot/Sunbeam/Lotus it was difficult to decide and describe what, exactly, I owned.  I had a Lotus keyring - I was young and single and it was good pose value. However when I came to the car I tended to give up on nomenclature and just say it was a very boring hatchback attached to some slightly more exotic running gear/engine.



#32 MarkBisset

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 04:06

Brabham Torana in ‘Straya...

https://primotipo.co...brabham-torana/

#33 ellrosso

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 07:30

One Brabham Viva, Longford 19675270-E-Viva-67-TNF.jpg



#34 TerryS

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 08:32

One Brabham Viva, Longford 19675270-E-Viva-67-TNF.jpg


See Denny Holme looking on from the side (complete with FORD jacket)

#35 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 17:54

See Denny Hulme looking on from the side (complete with FORD jacket)

And the Well-known Repco Brabham logo in the background.



#36 Doug Nye

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 20:27

 

 

Relative to postings by others I note some are using hyphenated usages.  I can find no reasonably factory sourced references that use the hyphen.  I strongly suspect that any such found are due to the reasonable ineptitude of the magazine etc authors.

 

 

 

A somewhat harsh assumption, perhaps?  

 

In period we used 'Brabham-Repco' in that order - and hyphenated - as a matter of accepted style, merely matching Cooper-Climax, Brabham-Climax, Brabham-BRM, Lola-Climax, etc - specifying chassis first, hyphen, engine...  

 

Any "factory sourced reference" was irrelevant to us.  For much the same reasoning, i.e. to inform the readership, when Team Lotus's factory source reference began bleating on about "JPS-Ford" we stuck to Lotus-Cosworth 72, 76 etc.  

 

Come to that, for much the same reason we commonly ignored Ford's (mere) sponsorship input and described the DFV V8 engine as a "Cosworth"...  We were an independently minded bunch of enthusiasts.

 

DCN



#37 GMACKIE

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 21:23

A somewhat harsh assumption, perhaps?  

 

In period we used 'Brabham-Repco' in that order - and hyphenated - as a matter of accepted style, merely matching Cooper-Climax, Brabham-Climax, Brabham-BRM, Lola-Climax, etc - specifying chassis first, hyphen, engine...  

 

Any "factory sourced reference" was irrelevant to us.  For much the same reasoning, i.e. to inform the readership, when Team Lotus's factory source reference began bleating on about "JPS-Ford" we stuck to Lotus-Cosworth 72, 76 etc.  

 

Come to that, for much the same reason we commonly ignored Ford's (mere) sponsorship input and described the DFV V8 engine as a "Cosworth"...  We were an independently minded bunch of enthusiasts.

 

DCN

 

A somewhat harsh assumption, perhaps?  

 

In period we used 'Brabham-Repco' in that order - and hyphenated - as a matter of accepted style, merely matching Cooper-Climax, Brabham-Climax, Brabham-BRM, Lola-Climax, etc - specifying chassis first, hyphen, engine...  

 

 

DCN

That doesn't make it 'correct', though...



#38 Doug Nye

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 21:48

Indeed.  But that's the way it was quite commonly done - and why...

 

DCN



#39 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 00:25

See Denny Holme looking on from the side (complete with FORD jacket)

In Australia we never got a Brabham HA Viva.

We did get the Brabham Torana HB.  An uninspiring pommy pram with twin carbs on its under 1200cc engine. Though it looked ok.



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#40 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 00:27

Indeed.  But that's the way it was quite commonly done - and why...

 

DCN

As I said above Doug, I have seen several interviews with Jack referring the cars to be Repco Brabhams. 

He owned and built the cars so I suggest he knew!!



#41 GreenMachine

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 02:26

Well I think you are all wrong.

 

Amongst my circle they were known as Reddo-Bradmans ... :wave:



#42 Doug Nye

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 05:40

As I said above Doug, I have seen several interviews with Jack referring the cars to be Repco Brabhams. 

He owned and built the cars so I suggest he knew!!

 

We're not talking like for like Lee.  I have explained WHY the contemporary press largely presented the Repco-powered cars as Brabham-Repcos.  Jack was quite properly very loyal to the company who had supported him over many years.  So there were different priorities - the press presenting a clear account to its audience - the constructor loyally promoting his sponsor.  So we both knew what, and why.

 

I asked Jack once if he minded, 'Repco Brabham' or 'Brabham-Repco'.  He assured me he couldn't care less - as long as we spelled 'Brabham' right...

 

I have seen minor-formulae race results laboriously listing "(driver name) Repco Brabham-Ford", filling most of the 20-25-strong race entry.  To minimise space taken, most editorial teams simply deleted the 'Repco'.  As far as I recall, MRD dd not complain.  Next weekend's racing was far more important...  

 

DCN



#43 Joe Bosworth

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 08:50

Back in post #25 I finished by noting, "Unless Doug Nye can chime in at this point I personally will leave it to Jack's writings as the final word on this matter and encourage others to follow suit."

 

Doug has now made his case known in posts #36, #38 and #42 that provides a very erudite explanation as to the reasons for his usage when in print.

 

Accordingly, I am happy to acknowledge the harshness of my comment relative that might have included Mt Nye in those magazine authors.

 

:wave:  I am pleased to have finally had a a part in Doug making his views known.

 

Regards



#44 Michael Ferner

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 09:33

Quite surprisingly, the earth has gone on spinning around its axis, and the sun has continued to rise and set since this little controversy hit TNF. As Doug explained, for reasons of economy and space, journalists used to omit the Repco part in the chosen name of the products built by Motor Racing Developments. No big deal, everyone knew what was meant. Today, some people are confused because not everybody seems to know this part of history - not only here, I had a similar discussion on another board just a few weeks ago. Journalists live in their days, not caring for future reference - perhaps we historians are needed once in a while to provide perspective?  ;)



#45 Cavalier53

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 19:28

Today at Zandvoort, 2 cars with different guises of the Repco Brabham logo. Both with 4 cilinder FPF's, no doubt part of the 1961 Grand Prix re-enactment:

 

url=https://postimg.cc/nCQ9H6RL][img]

 

DSC04622.jpg
 
 

 

url=https://postimg.cc/PCspN29Q][img]DSC04622.jpg
 
 
So that would have been 5 years before the Repco V8 engines led to Repco-Brabham-Repco cars, rather than Repco-Brabham-Coventry Climax or Repco-Brabham-Ford Cosworth single seaters, if i'm not mistaken?
 
PS: sorry for my poor camera skills, but the message comes across i guess. More of today's open air museum here: https://postimg.cc/gallery/1v7p16z4m/

Edited by Cavalier53, 06 September 2019 - 19:32.


#46 Michael Ferner

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 22:10

Except that the "Repco"  V8 engines were actually Repco Brabham V8 engines - as in RB620, RB740, RB860 etc... there is no "b" in Replacement Parts Company, Australia. There is no Repco Brabham/Repco, the same as there is no Alfa Romeo/Alfa, or Ferrari/Ferrari.



#47 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 16:33

There were more Repco engines than just the V8's we know here. Mostly Repco Holden engines, both 6's and V8's, but I have also seen a Repco FPF. Most of them never left Australia, so they are quite forgotten in Europe. So the RB series is just a set of engines among a much wider family of engines. 

Repco engines have been used in many makes of cars, one of them even described in my database as Repco Holden, which had one of the 6-cyl. Repco Holden engines.

Surely there must be someone to explain this even better (from Australia, I would think)



#48 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 20:40

While 'Repco Holden' 6-cylinder engines were well-described and the 'Repco' never left off, I have never seen anyone regularly refer to a Coventry-Climax FPF as being a 'Repco'...

Perhaps David McKay, in the days when the 'short stroke' 2.5s were in use, did refer to them as a 'Repco short-stroke Climax', but that would have been irregular and not for very long.

In the F5000 era, Repco were regularly credited with the Holden-based engines, but not so the Leyland engine used by John McCormack.

#49 TerryS

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 01:22

Race meeting programmes are usually a reliable source of a cars name because they are as nominated by the ream.

Looking through some 1960’s Warwick Farm programmes I see:

When powered by a Climax they were Repco-Brabham Climax

When powered by a Repco V8 they were Repco-Brabham V8

#50 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 05:38

There were more Repco engines than just the V8's we know here. Mostly Repco Holden engines, both 6's and V8's, but I have also seen a Repco FPF. Most of them never left Australia, so they are quite forgotten in Europe. So the RB series is just a set of engines among a much wider family of engines. 

Repco engines have been used in many makes of cars, one of them even described in my database as Repco Holden, which had one of the 6-cyl. Repco Holden engines.

Surely there must be someone to explain this even better (from Australia, I would think)

Repco Holden 6cyl were an aftermarket crossflow head assembly with manifolds and distributor drive for 'grey' Holden engines. 48-63. Originally 2 x SU carbs and a good quality cast iron exhaust manifolds.

Used in both road racing and speedway extensively. Many were used with many more mods, eg 3 carbs or constant flow fuel injection and both long pipe extractors or very simple zoomies.

There was a few around in road cars as well.

While still sought over these were really made obsolete by the red Holden engine, bigger capacity @ 179 initially growing to 186 then 202. 

Phil Irving who worked at Repco in the time also designed a semi downdraft intake head  for them, and Falcon 6s as well. They made better power in the day than regular modded Holden red motors. Though these days modded production heads with  roller cams make as much power for historic racing

Repco V8s were Buick Olds based engines originally which got wilder and wilder over their decade.

Repco Holden V8s were an engine used primarily in F5000 but a few ended up in tintops, with or without fuel injection. A modded and improved block from Holden, with a slightly shorter stroke to comein under 5 litre. The 308 Holden was 5047 cc. And really the base of the Holden L34 engine as well.