174 replies to this topic

[Clatter]

dans79, on Dec 21 2012, 18:00, said:

Of course Luca wants Vettel, he is still a child and thus can be manipulated. He has thrown at least 3 temper tantrums this year alone i can think of.

1. complaining to the team to do something because he couldn't get past the much slower Button.
2. complaining because he got a drive through for running Alonso of the track and Italy
3. crying that Karthikeyan didn't jump out of his way and that's why Hamilton got by in Austin


Hamilton has matured a lot since last year, and is becoming more and more like Alonso, in that he is not afraid to criticize his team for short comings.

I love the way you draw your conclusion from a few radio snippets that we get to hear. Do you seriously believe there is not similar conversations going on between the other drivers and their teams?

[lewymp4]

OneAndOnly, on Dec 21 2012, 08:50, said:

As Scuderia fan I'd rather see Hamilton in red outfit, than Vettel. Hamilton + Ferrari would be perfect combo (Vettel would fit in perfectly for sure, but Hamilton is faster IMO).

I agree that Lewis is faster.......Neither Lewis or Sebastian had any tire or mechanical issues during the U.S. Grand Prix, but Hamilton was able to continue and stalk Vettel for a long time, eventually taking advantage of traffic to pass Sebastian for the lead, and eventual win.

I believe that the 2012 U.S. GP was one of Lewis's finest drives!

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

[Clatter]

lewymp4, on Dec 21 2012, 18:26, said:

I agree that Lewis is faster.......Neither Lewis or Sebastian had any tire or mechanical issues during the U.S. Grand Prix, but Hamilton was able to continue and stalk Vettel for a long time, eventually taking advantage of traffic to pass Sebastian for the lead, and eventual win.

I believe that the 2012 U.S. GP was one of Lewis's finest drives!

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

They were not in the same car either so how can you come to any real conclusions?

[Sakae]

Kingshark, on Dec 21 2012, 19:22, said:

Sure. That completely invalidates his point, because those sources that clearly prove his point, aren't convincing enough for you.

Following is a post I have been responding to:

fabr68, on Dec 21 2012, 16:49, said:

Most team principals agreed that Vettel could not do better in Alonso's shoes.

How is the vote for Alonso as a driver of a year by team principals answering my question then? There is no correlation as far as I can tell between fabr68's statement, and your post with quoted polling results related to a different issue altogether.

Edited by Sakae, 21 December 2012 - 18:37.

[SpaMaster]

If his team continues down its path, he would only get the Webbers and the Fisichellas.

[Seanspeed]

SpaMaster, on Dec 21 2012, 13:37, said:

If his team continues down its path, he would only get the Webbers and the Fisichellas.

What path?

[Kingshark]

fabr68 said

Most team principals agreed that Vettel could not do better in Alonso's shoes.

Sakae, on Dec 21 2012, 12:37, said:

How is the vote for Alonso as a driver of a year by team principals answering my question then? There is no correlation as far as I can tell between fabr68's statement, and your post with quoted polling results related to a different issue altogether.

You're joking, right?

If team principles vote Alonso as the best driver of 2012, ahead of Vettel; then this proves that they believe Vettel would not have done better than Alonso in his shoes. Team principles vote Alonso as the best driver of 2012, hence they believe he performed the best throughout the season.

Is it really that hard to interpret this basic information? Use logic.

Edited by Kingshark, 21 December 2012 - 18:43.

[jjcale]

Clatter, on Dec 21 2012, 18:28, said:

They were not in the same car either so how can you come to any real conclusions?

I seem to remember most people thinking the Redbull was the car to beat that weekend - right up to 3/4 way through the race.

[halifaxf1fan]

For Ferrari Alonso is the present but Vettel is the future.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 21 December 2012 - 19:23.

[Sakae]

Kingshark, on Dec 21 2012, 19:42, said:

You're joking, right?

If team principles vote Alonso as the best driver of 2012, ahead of Vettel; then this proves that they believe Vettel would not have done better than Alonso in his shoes. Team principles vote Alonso as the best driver of 2012, hence they believe he performed the best throughout the season.

Is it really that hard to interpret this basic information? Use logic.

Err not so fast. In my interpretation what polling results imply is, that some team principles think that Alonso has performed with his equipment better, than Vettel has with his RB. It does not however follows, that they also think Vettel in driving in the same Ferrari could not perform better (which is of course matter of conjecture, and nothing more). fabr68 (and now you) is yet to show me where any of team's bossess would engage in this type of speculation.

[P123]

It's not exactly a secrect that Ferrari have Vettel as their first choice for the future; even rumoured earlier this year to have Vettel on a pre-contract. Vettel has even expressed a desire to drive for them in the future. The only 'new' info in LdM's recent statements is that he would not pair Alonso with Vettel, so there are still a few years until Vettel ends up in the red car. And by then there be a new kid who is even more appealing to Ferrari, who may view Vettel as 'too old' then too..

For LH, I'd rather see him in a Williams than a Ferrari, and he's never indicated any interest in driving for Ferrari.

[JimiKart]

Sure Ferrari want to line Vettel up, and sure he's going to replace Alonso one day, but the way it works in F1 is that will not happen until Vettel beats Alonso with a lesser car than the one Alonso is driving... to date Alonso has almost twice beaten fingerboy with a lesser car, so Vettel has little to no chance of replacing Alonso until Alonso retires - and now Vettel is screwed because almost nobody wins 4 in a row, and if they do it'll be confirmed it's because of the car - lose lose for fingerboy.

[undersquare]

Lol Monty. "I like Vettel, because he is not presumptuous. He wants to win but he is not arrogant."

Luca baby, Sebi is by some margin the MOST arrogant driver on the grid.

[apoka]

JimiKart, on Dec 21 2012, 20:39, said:

Sure Ferrari want to line Vettel up, and sure he's going to replace Alonso one day, but the way it works in F1 is that will not happen until Vettel beats Alonso with a lesser car than the one Alonso is driving... to date Alonso has almost twice beaten fingerboy with a lesser car, so Vettel has little to no chance of replacing Alonso until Alonso retires - and now Vettel is screwed because almost nobody wins 4 in a row, and if they do it'll be confirmed it's because of the car - lose lose for fingerboy.

It's indeed lose lose according to that kind of logic. If he gets the WDC, it confirms that it was the car. If he doesn't, it confirms that he is weak.

Anyway, he is 25 and can afford a few more years of "losing" before joining Ferrari and becoming a "true champion".

[Zava]

matzy, on Dec 21 2012, 13:28, said:

Didn't he say something similar about Alonso, when Kimi was still driving for the team?

Joking aside, I cannot imagine Luca blames Alonso for the "failure to deliver".

yup, after 2008 spanish grand prix, Montezemolo said "Massa's place is safe" and "I wouldn't put Alonso in next to Raikkönen" in separate interviews. Keke Rosberg put two and two together and said "Kimi will have to make place for Alonso", which sounded absurd at the time, as Raikkonen was defending WDC, in the lead of the 2008 championship...

[rasul]

undersquare, on Dec 21 2012, 20:55, said:

Lol Monty. "I like Vettel, because he is not presumptuous. He wants to win but he is not arrogant."

Luca baby, Sebi is by some margin the MOST arrogant driver on the grid.

Luca probably knows a thing or two about true arrogance, considering that he has to deal with the most self-important driver on the grid every day. I wouldn't call Vettel arrogant --overly emotional and short-tempered, yes. Obnoxious and annoying -- sometimes, especially when he shows his finger. But not arrogant or presumptuous. He tends to downplay his achievements.

But unlike Luca, I'd take Hamilton over Vettel. Not because I think Ham is the better driver -- they're comparable in terms of talent -- but because I simply like Hamilton better. But since it's not likely, I'm okay with Vettel replacing Alonso.

[2ms]

Zava, on Dec 21 2012, 15:12, said:

yup, after 2008 spanish grand prix, Montezemolo said "Massa's place is safe" and "I wouldn't put Alonso in next to Raikkönen" in separate interviews. Keke Rosberg put two and two together and said "Kimi will have to make place for Alonso", which sounded absurd at the time, as Raikkonen was defending WDC, in the lead of the 2008 championship...

No doubt, their current drivers were part of the Santander. But it doesn't look like Santander is going anywhere. Unless, of course, LdM knows something that we don't... hmmm...

[Szoelloe]

LdM, is right, from his own perspective anyway. Its really futile to argue that. His Machiavellian streak always shines through,though. There is always an edge to what he says. But arguing about him courting a 3-time WDC vs a one time WDC is just that: futile. He just loves to divide and conquer. All you can do is pray Mercedes gives more opportunity to Hamilton to prove himself and to be successful than Mc has done so far. Mont will change his mind without a blink of the eye. The jab is a little bit for Alonso too. He himself has been quite arrogant this year when things turned sour. They really are not used to that. MS always kept any criticism behind the doors. Kimi has done the same, and he would have had more to complain about. FA has all but said the team has done a bad job in the second half of the season, while he was a gift sent by God himself. That's not something that goes down well with LdM. Its his way of bitchslapping FA.

[dans79]

Clatter, on Dec 21 2012, 12:26, said:

I love the way you draw your conclusion from a few radio snippets that we get to hear. Do you seriously believe there is not similar conversations going on between the other drivers and their teams?

I know conversations like this go on between drivers and teams all the time. Like I said Vettel is a child about it, and sounds/acts like a little kid stomping his feet that could start crying at any time.

When he starts expressing him self like a man, I'll start respecting him more.

[ayali]

undersquare, on Dec 21 2012, 20:55, said:

Lol Monty. "I like Vettel, because he is not presumptuous. He wants to win but he is not arrogant."

Luca baby, Sebi is by some margin the MOST arrogant driver on the grid.

LOL Undy. You need to see a bit more of the world dude that's the way animated discussions take place in many countries apart of course from little Britain, nothing to do with arrogance and everything with passion.

Luca probably sees that at the coffee machine every day when his employees discuss last night's football game.
It shows exactly why Seb (and not your silly Sebi) will fit in perfectly with Ferrari.

Luca is right of course at this point in time every team will take Vettel over Lewis, as him being snubbed this year by Ferrari and Red Bull for Massa and Webber kinda illustrates.

But things can change, it only takes a Brawn rocket to give a very healthy push to ones career.
Right Jenson ;)

[Seanspeed]

undersquare, on Dec 21 2012, 14:55, said:

Lol Monty. "I like Vettel, because he is not presumptuous. He wants to win but he is not arrogant."

Luca baby, Sebi is by some margin the MOST arrogant driver on the grid.

No. No he is not. And thats a freakin terrible example of 'arrogance'.

But whatever deflects the arrogant accusations away from Lewis, right?

Edited by Seanspeed, 21 December 2012 - 21:13.

[Group B]

undersquare, on Dec 21 2012, 19:55, said:

Lol Monty. "I like Vettel, because he is not presumptuous. He wants to win but he is not arrogant."

Luca baby, Sebi is by some margin the MOST arrogant driver on the grid.

By some margin? Hardly. Arrogant, at times, yes, but Fred and Hamilton have both been so far up themselves at times that they virtually turned inside out. None of them are immune to it.

[Seanspeed]

rasul, on Dec 21 2012, 16:12, said:

Actually, Luca also told to Sky Sports:

"I like Vettel. He's a good man, a good driver. He's younger with a lot of talent. We will see. I always think that we like to have a number one and a number one likes to drive at least once in his career for Ferrari."

That pretty much sums it up. If Vettel keeps winning and Alonso losing...

Then what?

They'll put in another good driver that still wont be able to win a championship unless the engineering team put together a more competitive car?

[Clatter]

dans79, on Dec 21 2012, 20:43, said:

I know conversations like this go on between drivers and teams all the time. Like I said Vettel is a child about it, and sounds/acts like a little kid stomping his feet that could start crying at any time.

When he starts expressing him self like a man, I'll start respecting him more.

I bet he can't wait for that day.

[robefc]

dans79, on Dec 21 2012, 20:43, said:

I know conversations like this go on between drivers and teams all the time. Like I said Vettel is a child about it, and sounds/acts like a little kid stomping his feet that could start crying at any time.

When he starts expressing him self like a man, I'll start respecting him more.

I find it really hard to find why anyone dislikes vettel beyond being completely ******** that he's beating their favourite driver.

I personally think Lewis is a great guy (perhaps hoping to a certain extent) and that's backed up by a lot of people who have met him and who talk about what he's like away from the cameras. However, it's pretty hard to deny there's plenty of examples of him acting like a d1ck and easy to understand how people might not warm to him (to put it lightly!).

On the other hand vettel very rarely says anything that could be construed as arrogant, despite plenty of provocation from the likes of lewis and alonso and having plenty to brag about, seems a genuinely likeable and chilled out guy, all the journos etc remark on this...and yet the fact he sounds a bit whiny when he's agitated on the radio is apparently enough to completely take against him.

I just don't get it.

[Szoelloe]

rasul, on Dec 21 2012, 22:40, said:

No. Everyone knows that Vettel always has the fastest car. Ferrari would miraculously turn into one. He will win WDC for Ferrari and everyone would keep moaning about how unfair it is.

Joking aside, I think there's a chance that Newey might follow Vettel to Ferrari, just like Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne followed Schumacher to Ferrari. Newey seems very fond of him.

That I am highly skeptical about. He will sooner retire from F1 and design America's Cup boats. Its something similar to MS and McLaren. There is a high level of incompatibility involved.

[undersquare]

robefc, on Dec 21 2012, 21:43, said:

I find it really hard to find why anyone dislikes vettel beyond being completely ******** that he's beating their favourite driver.

I personally think Lewis is a great guy (perhaps hoping to a certain extent) and that's backed up by a lot of people who have met him and who talk about what he's like away from the cameras. However, it's pretty hard to deny there's plenty of examples of him acting like a d1ck and easy to understand how people might not warm to him (to put it lightly!).

On the other hand vettel very rarely says anything that could be construed as arrogant, despite plenty of provocation from the likes of lewis and alonso and having plenty to brag about, seems a genuinely likeable and chilled out guy, all the journos etc remark on this...and yet the fact he sounds a bit whiny when he's agitated on the radio is apparently enough to completely take against him.

I just don't get it.

Did you watch that clip I posted, Vettel right in Hembery's face? Do you listen to his radio? See the polls that show he's stunningly unpopular for someone of his achievements? I'm not sure about the journos either, personally.

It's because little cutiepie Sebi is a veneer. Arrogance isn't not boasting, it goes deeper than that; a lot of people agree with Webbo, who quite obviously cannot stand him.

Sebi is 'not arrogant' the same way Badoer was 'not slow', whereas it's a problem for Lewis that he's not arrogant enough. Well I've always thought Monty is RBR and McLaren's greatest asset.

Hmm, maybe it's time for a favourite driver poll...

[dans79]

robefc, on Dec 21 2012, 15:43, said:

I just don't get it.

It's about personality style, I'd rather deal with someone who get's in my face and doesn't pull punches when they are upset, than deal with someone who holds back, and pouts when something doesn't go his way.

[robefc]

undersquare, on Dec 21 2012, 22:11, said:

Did you watch that clip I posted, Vettel right in Hembery's face? Do you listen to his radio? See the polls that show he's stunningly unpopular for someone of his achievements? I'm not sure about the journos either, personally.

It's because little cutiepie Sebi is a veneer. Arrogance isn't not boasting, it goes deeper than that; a lot of people agree with Webbo, who quite obviously cannot stand him.

Sebi is 'not arrogant' the same way Badoer was 'not slow', whereas it's a problem for Lewis that he's not arrogant enough. Well I've always thought Monty is RBR and McLaren's greatest asset.

Hmm, maybe it's time for a favourite driver poll...

Sigh, yes I watched that video, hardly the devil at play. I don't believe vettel's attitude is a veneer, I've seen far too much of him and read far too much about him.

And frankly I'd be very surprised if webber could stand him given he's been completely tonked by him, if I was vettel I wouldn't like webber very much given antics like in the brazilian GP this year.

I haven't seen any polls showing he's stunningly unpopular but if you're talking about polls of F1 fans then I'd take a guess at why he's unpopoular and it's not because of his personality.

Practically everything I've read about Vettel from journos has been positive.

[robefc]

dans79, on Dec 21 2012, 22:15, said:

It's about personality style, I'd rather deal with someone who get's in my face and doesn't pull punches when they are upset, than deal with someone who holds back, and pouts when something doesn't go his way.

didn't look like he was pulling many punches with the pirelli guy...doesnt seem to hold back on the radio when he's upset...pretty much he appears to act like a cool guy except when he's upset...which is what you're asking for, no?

[rijole1]

gillesthegenius, on Dec 21 2012, 13:26, said:

Well, what Luca says is actually very interesting. Was he trying to mend things with Vettel or was he giving a thinly veiled warning to Alonso that if he doesnt deliver, then there other options with a lot of potential. If I was Alonso, I wouldnt particularly like seeing my boss saying such encouraging words about my nemesis #1.

I think so too, a bit of a warning to Alonso. And you never know, maybe they are already seriously seeking a new driver who could replace him.

[P123]

Seanspeed, on Dec 21 2012, 21:11, said:

No. No he is not. And thats a freakin terrible example of 'arrogance'.

But whatever deflects the arrogant accusations away from Lewis, right?

Well, both accusations are bloody dumb. Vettel is as driven as any of them, despite his shiny media demeanour. As is Hamilton, who doesn't quite have the same shiny media demeanour. 'He's arrogant' is the default moan from the dribbling keyboard warrior bores.

Vettel would certainly be lower maintenance than LH would be for the Ferrari PR department. The rest- no difference at all. But it's all moot- Ferrari, if rumours are true, already have SV on a pre-contract, and Hamilton has never expressed an interest in driving for Ferrari anyway. I can only assume LdM was answering a direct question for Hamilton to have been brought in to the discussion.

[robefc]

rijole1, on Dec 21 2012, 22:25, said:

I think so too, a bit of a warning to Alonso. And you never know, maybe they are already seriously seeking a new driver who could replace him.

I really am not seeing any such thing, they love him and know he could deliver no more, it's up to the team to match him.

[rijole1]

undersquare, on Dec 21 2012, 20:55, said:

Lol Monty. "I like Vettel, because he is not presumptuous. He wants to win but he is not arrogant."

Luca baby, Sebi is by some margin the MOST arrogant driver on the grid.

I think Seb is not an arrogant person. He just loves to win like every other driver on the grid.
He seems to have a good selfconfidence and be too intelligent to waiste his time in being arrogant.

But I'm not so sure about Luca himself and his current number one driver...

[dans79]

robefc, on Dec 21 2012, 16:18, said:

didn't look like he was pulling many punches with the pirelli guy...doesnt seem to hold back on the radio when he's upset...pretty much he appears to act like a cool guy except when he's upset...which is what you're asking for, no?

I still don't see it in Vettel. I don't see a man when Vettel is upset, I see a child. poking at a Pirelli guy is like kicking a small dog, the pirelli guy is most likely always going to be subservient, he is a nobody compared to Vettel. Complaining over the radio to people who have to take it, is not what an adult does. I actually thought his RE responding to his wining about Button was really appropriate. it was basically "shut up and deal with it".

[robefc]

dans79, on Dec 21 2012, 22:38, said:

I still don't see it in Vettel. I don't see a man when Vettel is upset, I see a child. poking at a Pirelli guy is like kicking a small dog, the pirelli guy is most likely always going to be subservient, he is a nobody compared to Vettel. Complaining over the radio to people who have to take it, is not what an adult does. I actually thought his RE responding to his wining about Button was really appropriate. it was basically "shut up and deal with it".

I see what you mean but I think his relationship with rocky allows him to complain like that, as you say rocky puts him in his place, they all sound like spoilt brats on the radio from time to time, it's forgiveable in my book and his general conduct is far more of a indicator to me of the sort of guy he is.

[undersquare]

robefc, on Dec 21 2012, 22:17, said:

I haven't seen any polls showing he's stunningly unpopular but if you're talking about polls of F1 fans then I'd take a guess at why he's unpopoular and it's not because of his personality.

You haven't seen those favourite driver polls with Vettel on about 5% while Kimi, Lewis and Nando run away with it on 10-13%? This one for example.

What's your guess? Nationality? What about JB then?

Anyway Ferrari are welcome to him afaic.

[robefc]

undersquare, on Dec 21 2012, 22:53, said:

You haven't seen those favourite driver polls with Vettel on about 5% while Kimi, Lewis and Nando run away with it on 10-13%? This one for example.

What's your guess? Nationality? What about JB then?

Anyway Ferrari are welcome to him afaic.

Just because someone doesn't score hightly on a favourite driver poll doesn't mean they are unpopular in that people don't necessarily dislike them, just not the guy they support.

[prty]

undersquare, on Dec 21 2012, 20:55, said:

Lol Monty. "I like Vettel, because he is not presumptuous. He wants to win but he is not arrogant."

Luca baby, Sebi is by some margin the MOST arrogant driver on the grid.

The little idiot should respect older, non-petulant people, that's the first rule in life. He was fully aware he was humiliating him in front of the cameras.
The same disgusting behavior was featured by Button a few years ago when he was in Honda.

[Sakae]

I have seen Senna being even more animated once, and no one called him an idiot because of that. Comments on Vettel are not always based on comparative standards, and that's fine, I say, learn to live with it if you don't like it, it's your problem only.

[Spillage]

Think I agree with LdM. Honestly, I think Vettel is just a better driver than Hamilton; they may be evenly matched on pace, but as Mark Hughes said in his end-of-season-review; how can Mclaren not be devastated that a driver as good as Hamilton is leaving them? Vettel may have bitched about Karthikeyan in Austin and Malaysia, but it is impossible to imagine him releasing confidential team information over Twitter. He just seems a more mature, level-headed character. This is added to the fact that as Vettel improves year-on-year he is going to get better and better in relation to Hamilton - in five years, I don't think there'll be much debate as to who is the stronger driver of the two.

Personally, I hope Vettel goes to Ferrari while Alonso is still there. That partnership would be something to behold

[Zava]

Spillage, on Dec 22 2012, 00:42, said:

Think I agree with LdM. Honestly, I think Vettel is just a better driver than Hamilton; they may be evenly matched on pace, but as Mark Hughes said in his end-of-season-review; how can Mclaren not be devastated that a driver as good as Hamilton is leaving them? Vettel may have bitched about Karthikeyan in Austin and Malaysia, but it is impossible to imagine him releasing confidential team information over Twitter. He just seems a more mature, level-headed character. This is added to the fact that as Vettel improves year-on-year he is going to get better and better in relation to Hamilton - in five years, I don't think there'll be much debate as to who is the stronger driver of the two.

Personally, I hope Vettel goes to Ferrari while Alonso is still there. That partnership would be something to behold

I don't think so, at least not if Vettel doesn't beat a 'proven driver', like Hamilton did in 2007, when he beat Alonso, who, by the way 'proved' himself by matching Hamilton in that year.

...and that reminds me of this kind of logic

Edited by Zava, 21 December 2012 - 23:59.

[robefc]

Zava, on Dec 21 2012, 23:58, said:

I don't think so, at least not if Vettel doesn't beat a 'proven driver', like Hamilton did in 2007, when he beat Alonso, who, by the way 'proved' himself by matching Hamilton in that year.

...and that reminds me of this kind of logic

I always thought alonso had proven a thing or two before 2007 but perhaps I'm wrong

[halifaxf1fan]

undersquare, on Dec 21 2012, 15:55, said:

Lol Monty. "I like Vettel, because he is not presumptuous. He wants to win but he is not arrogant."

Luca baby, Sebi is by some margin the MOST arrogant driver on the grid.

Great video.

It is good to see Vettel giving Pirelli a hard time and much needed feedback about their less than desirable tires. This video of Vettel reminds me of the clip of Senna giving the young Schumacher some much needed words of advice.

All the greats have a hard edge, Vettel is no exception.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 22 December 2012 - 04:31.

[bourbon]

If you ask me (and granted, no one has), Luca's comments about why Hamilton would not be good for Ferrari were hogwash.

Luca is correct about Sebastian though.

[V8 Fireworks]

BenettonB192, on Dec 21 2012, 14:02, said:

Imo one of the reasons Alonso praises himself so much. His status is secure right now at his team but he knows it can swing quickly if Vettel keeps beating him in the WDC. Ferrari see themself as the best team so they have a natural interest to sign the driver with the best accolades.

There is NOTHING wrong with having both.

Jimmie Johnson and Jeff Gordon happily co-exist at Hendrick racing.

Gordon may be a little over the hill and unable to adapt to latest car actually.

Similarly Alonso persists with traditional undeersteer whilst Vettel has his special EBD trick requiring a looser but grippy and predictable car ... therefore if the car is suitably optimised, it is likely that Vettel will better with the lastest generation f1 and Vettel would put Alonso in a similar place as Johnson vs Gordon. (of course in an understeery car I will put my money on Alonso though, Vettel was even outqualified by Potsie Webber in the early spec RB8 !)

[V8 Fireworks]

robefc, on Dec 21 2012, 23:17, said:

Sigh, yes I watched that video, hardly the devil at play. I don't believe vettel's attitude is a veneer, I've seen far too much of him and read far too much about him.

And frankly I'd be very surprised if webber could stand him given he's been completely tonked by him, if I was vettel I wouldn't like webber very much given antics like in the brazilian GP this year.

I haven't seen any polls showing he's stunningly unpopular but if you're talking about polls of F1 fans then I'd take a guess at why he's unpopoular and it's not because of his personality.

Practically everything I've read about Vettel from journos has been positive.

I think we agree Vettel is by no means mr. nice guy like Kovalainen, but he is also probably not the biggest knob to ever race an F1 car either. Maybe sometimes the extreme determination comes across in impolite way, certainly being rude to boss of tyre supplier is dumb.

Similarly Will Power of indycar comes across as a bit overdetermined and impolite at times, but I don't think he is deliberately intending to offend either, it's just how he is, as with Vettel I guess.

[Kelateboy]

BenettonB192, on Dec 21 2012, 14:02, said:

.............. (imo one of the reasons Ferrari doesnt look as strong as they used to) and snatch some of the top RBR talent too. Kinda what happend with Benetton when Schumi went to Ferrari. For instance i wouldnt be surprised to see Horner go where Vettel goes.

I believe this is the crux of the issue - you snatch Vettel, he will take away some important personnel with him too. Maybe even Horner and Newey who might fancy a new challenge with Ferrari.

[mattferg]

Kelateboy, on Dec 22 2012, 03:22, said:

I believe this is the crux of the issue - you snatch Vettel, he will take away some important personnel with him too. Maybe even Horner and Newey who might fancy a new challenge with Ferrari.

When designing championship-winning cars for Williams and McLaren Newey was offered to join Ferrari and he declined, saying he wants to stay in England to be close to his family and as such would only work for teams in the UK. Sorry!

If he wanted a new challenge therefore his only options would be Lotus or Mercedes, however Mercedes would be unwilling to match his huge RBR check and all the other UK teams couldn't afford to.

[V8 Fireworks]

mattferg, on Dec 22 2012, 05:43, said:

If he wanted a new challenge therefore his only options would be Lotus or Mercedes, however Mercedes would be unwilling to match his huge RBR check and all the other UK teams couldn't afford to.

Would Ferrari really allow Newey to have complete executive control on all technical matters, as he does at RBR, anyhow?
I can't imagine SD would allow Newey to persist with lightweight, compact KERS at the expense of reliability and power. It would be un-Ferrari-like to have a weak drivetrain on purpose.

At least by stealing Seb, Ferrari would probably weaken RBR a little too as well as geting an overall superior driver than Massa.