174 replies to this topic

[Skinnyguy]

I told you a dozen times: I don´t dislike Ferrari for what happened with my favourite driver. I don´t dislike Alonso either. I don´t buy the conspiracy theories about them ignoring Räikkönen feedback about suspensions, I don´t buy the Santander buying seats story. Both parts of the deal simply underperfomed to each other.

Ferrari move to go for Alonso was normal, and a team sporting decission, not a bussines. Alonso looked a better prospect in late 2000´s with Räikkönen on the level he had during the Ferrari stint and they, Ferrari team -not Santander- CHOSE to bring Alonso in for sporting reasons. Just as they had freely elected Räikkönen earlier when he looked a better prospect for them. Santander just made the Alonso deal possible throwing money, they didn´t DECIDE anything, contrary to what I read here sometimes . Ferrari of all teams allowing sponsors to have sporting influence is bollocks to me

After some years, I think it´s clear that it wasn´t quite as easy as Ferrari painted it: Räikkönen was simply underperforming (he is back driving as well as anyone on the grid for other people, so he didn´t "lose it", plus and he only showed poor form in his Ferrari stint over a looong career). To support this view that blame from that failed relationship must be shared, Ferrari struggles still continue, even with a driver performing quite better than Räikkönen´s overall performance during his red stint.

So with hindsight, I think both parts failed to work properly together. But no hard feelings. **** happens. I don´t take any satisfaction from Ferrari-Alonso struggles. I don´t dislike them. If we argue so often is because I felt loads of times your judgement of Räikkönen´s work overall is not honest, as you yourself said "Kimi diehard fan drive me to try to compensate". Well, Alonso diehard fans don´t have the same effect on me: my judgements about Alonso-Ferrari are perfectly fair, and while you might or not agree with them, they´re done without any dislike/soreness pushing inside me. Example: Alonso HAS been the driver of the year and has done a nearly perfect season, and Ferrari has done a really good comeback from nowhere, and has been the best team regarding strategy and in any aspect that it´s not car speed.

And that´s all, I´m going way off-topic I think. There are enough Räikkönen contamined threads.

Cheers.

[vlado]

I would take Hamilton... From what I've seen he is the better all around driver.

seahawk, on Dec 21 2012, 14:10, said:

There was no Schumacher-Ferrari era, it was the Byrne @ Ferrari era.

You think Byrne would have achieved all of what he did at Ferrari without MS there ?

Edited by vlado, 23 December 2012 - 18:41.

[tifosiMac]

Well I'm positively devastated reading the opening post of this thread!!lol

I bet Hamilton's world has collapsed! Or perhaps not.

[mnmracer]

vlado, on Dec 23 2012, 19:38, said:

You think Byrne would have achieved all of what he did at Ferrari without MS there ?

People seem to think Newey would have achieved all of what he did at Red Bull without SV there.

Edited by mnmracer, 23 December 2012 - 18:51.

[Fatgadget]

gerry nassar, on Dec 23 2012, 04:52, said:

Vettel would be less of a hassle for Alonso if he were to join than if Lewis was to re-team with him. The comments also mean its very likely Vettel will be there sooner rather than later.

Eh! So who would be the designated back door biatch should Alonso be paired with Vettel at Ferrari?

Edited by Fatgadget, 23 December 2012 - 19:02.

[swerved]

Fatgadget, on Dec 23 2012, 19:01, said:

Eh! So who would be the designated back door biatch should Alonso be paired with Vettel at Ferrari?

"Fernando, Sebastian è più veloce di te, puoi confermare undertood quel messaggio."

[2ms]

I think this is a lot being made out of nothing. What LdM thinks doesn't really determine much. Red Bull is still the better team than Ferrari, so Vettel would basically be an idiot to go there, at least according to most Alonso fans, who blame Alonso's team and car for his getting beaten year after year. Moreover, it's not as if Santander would subsidize the next generation Ferrari driver coming in and possibly beating their personal driver who is the figurehead of all their marketing efforts in their primary market.

[BillBald]

tkulla, on Dec 22 2012, 15:26, said:

So I'd opt for Seb. All three guys can win the championship if the car is there or thereabouts, so I'd take the guy who makes the sailing the smoothest. He wouldn't care who his teammate is and doesn't need his ego stroked continuously, and for a 3x WDC flies under the radar pretty well.

Sorry for the partial quote, but it's been quoted in full a few times.

It seems to me that things go smoothly with Seb at RB, mainly because the team is 100% behind him, exactly as Ferrari is 100% behind Alonso.

We haven't seen how he would react if that were not the case. The only thing you can say, is that he doesn't complain so publicly when the car is not the best, which might be because he is pretty confident that Newey will sort it out sooner rather than later.

[prty]

2ms, on Dec 23 2012, 20:57, said:

Alonso fans, who blame Alonso's team and car for his getting beaten year after year.

Wait, to make things clear, are you saying it was Alonso's fault?

[bourbon]

This is nothing new. Luca, with his usual bad form on this topic, is always negative about Hamilton and positive about Vettel becoming a Ferrari driver.

His comment could be aimed at his own driver or either of the above drivers - or at some third party. In any case, his indirect badmouthing of Hamilton was unnecessary.

Edited by bourbon, 23 December 2012 - 22:36.

[CrucialXtreme]

2ms, on Dec 23 2012, 14:57, said:

I think this is a lot being made out of nothing. What LdM thinks doesn't really determine much. Red Bull is still the better team than Ferrari, so Vettel would basically be an idiot to go there, at least according to most Alonso fans, who blame Alonso's team and car for his getting beaten year after year. Moreover, it's not as if Santander would subsidize the next generation Ferrari driver coming in and possibly beating their personal driver who is the figurehead of all their marketing efforts in their primary market.

This is absolutely false and is nothing more than your opinion. To say outright RBR/RBT is a better team simply isn't accurate. I will certainly agree that RBR/RBT have excelled in the current Reg change, more than any other team but it doesn't necessarily make them a better team. Plus 2014 is very close which is a completely different set of Regs coming which will shake up the current pecking order on the grid. Ferrari and Mercedes are likely to have a distinct advantage over the competition so to say Vettel is an idiot to go there is not thinking ahead nor recognizing the history of the sport that is Formula One.

[boldhakka]

CrucialXtreme, on Dec 23 2012, 23:55, said:

This is absolutely false and is nothing more than your opinion. To say outright RBR/RBT is a better team simply isn't accurate. I will certainly agree that RBR/RBT have excelled in the current Reg change, more than any other team but it doesn't necessarily make them a better team. Plus 2014 is very close which is a completely different set of Regs coming which will shake up the current pecking order on the grid. Ferrari and Mercedes are likely to have a distinct advantage over the competition so to say Vettel is an idiot to go there is not thinking ahead nor recognizing the history of the sport that is Formula One.

[BernieEc]

CrucialXtreme, on Dec 23 2012, 22:55, said:

This is absolutely false and is nothing more than your opinion. To say outright RBR/RBT is a better team simply isn't accurate. I will certainly agree that RBR/RBT have excelled in the current Reg change, more than any other team but it doesn't necessarily make them a better team. Plus 2014 is very close which is a completely different set of Regs coming which will shake up the current pecking order on the grid. Ferrari and Mercedes are likely to have a distinct advantage over the competition so to say Vettel is an idiot to go there is not thinking ahead nor recognizing the history of the sport that is Formula One.

Crucial...Am wondering what advantage will that be. Doesn't the fact that Rebull is now Renault works team negate this perceived advantage. I am making an assumption that the advantage you are referring to has to do with Ferrari and Merc being both race teams and developing the engine in-house. Will there be a significant advantage from this compared to Redbull who although not developing the engine are considered the Renault works team and am sure will be working as closely to the engine designers as either of the other 2 teams you mentioned

Edited by BernieEc, 24 December 2012 - 14:53.

[2ms]

CrucialXtreme, on Dec 23 2012, 17:55, said:

This is absolutely false and is nothing more than your opinion. To say outright RBR/RBT is a better team simply isn't accurate. I will certainly agree that RBR/RBT have excelled in the current Reg change, more than any other team but it doesn't necessarily make them a better team. Plus 2014 is very close which is a completely different set of Regs coming which will shake up the current pecking order on the grid. Ferrari and Mercedes are likely to have a distinct advantage over the competition so to say Vettel is an idiot to go there is not thinking ahead nor recognizing the history of the sport that is Formula One.

It isn't my opinion. It is the opinion of Alonso fans who blame Vettel always beating Alonso on the fact he drives a Red Bull and Alonso only drives a Ferrari. I think Vettel would win if he was at Ferrari. Additionally, the conventional wisdom is that magical Newey is extra magical at rule changes -- that RBR made a leap AHEAD of Ferrari in 2009 and 2010 due to rule changes. The story goes that Ferrari was the greatest team until rule changes happened, and that they have sucked so bad relative to RBR that they can't win ever since.

I disagree with them, but according to Alonso fans and Alonso, Vettel would not win if he drove for Ferrari, and when the rules change again, since his cars are designed by Newey (so goes the claim), he will have an even greater advantage again.

I personally think it's just more of the same old excuses, and believe that Vettel would win the WDC at Ferrari. Webber's one of the best drivers in F1 and he was 6th in WDC this year, getting dominated by the slower Ferrari the second half of the season.

Edited by 2ms, 24 December 2012 - 15:42.

[Szoelloe]

BernieEc, on Dec 24 2012, 15:52, said:

Crucial...Am wondering what advantage will that be. Doesn't the fact that Rebull is now Renault works team negate this perceived advantage. I am making an assumption that the advantage you are referring to has to do with Ferrari and Merc being both race teams and developing the engine in-house. Will there be a significant advantage from this compared to Redbull who although not developing the engine are considered the Renault works team and am sure will be working as closely to the engine designers as either of the other 2 teams you mentioned

Red Bull still doesn't have the engine manufacturing and design in-house, however close they work together with Renault. On another note, Merc has been working on the 2014 basics of the car for some months now, and Ferrari has recruited further design staff, and splits its resources between 2013/14 in a similar fashion. In the meanwhile, RB has been said to be late with the 2013 car. Not that I would underestimate RB in any way. I think Crucial wrote 'distinct' advantage, and not significant, personally, I agree. The advantage I assume is coming for real-time correlative flow of information and data, and united teamwork between engine design and car design teams. If you say that is debatable, I have no further arguments on this though, It still could mean close to nothing in the end.

[CrucialXtreme]

BernieEc, on Dec 24 2012, 09:52, said:

Crucial...Am wondering what advantage will that be. Doesn't the fact that Rebull is now Renault works team negate this perceived advantage. I am making an assumption that the advantage you are referring to has to do with Ferrari and Merc being both race teams and developing the engine in-house. Will there be a significant advantage from this compared to Redbull who although not developing the engine are considered the Renault works team and am sure will be working as closely to the engine designers as either of the other 2 teams you mentioned

I think reliability of the new engines will be a factor. As well as the reliability & performance of the new recovery systems and even the turbo itself. I think Ferrari & Mercedes will have an advantage here. Will get deeper into it after the Holidays mate. Cheers & Merry Christmas.

2ms, on Dec 24 2012, 10:40, said:

It isn't my opinion. It is the opinion of Alonso fans who blame Vettel always beating Alonso on the fact he drives a Red Bull and Alonso only drives a Ferrari. I think Vettel would win if he was at Ferrari. Additionally, the conventional wisdom is that magical Newey is extra magical at rule changes -- that RBR made a leap AHEAD of Ferrari in 2009 and 2010 due to rule changes. The story goes that Ferrari was the greatest team until rule changes happened, and that they have sucked so bad relative to RBR that they can't win ever since.

I disagree with them, but according to Alonso fans and Alonso, Vettel would not win if he drove for Ferrari, and when the rules change again, since his cars are designed by Newey (so goes the claim), he will have an even greater advantage again.

I personally think it's just more of the same old excuses, and believe that Vettel would win the WDC at Ferrari. Webber's one of the best drivers in F1 and he was 6th in WDC this year, getting dominated by the slower Ferrari the second half of the season.

I think Seb could have won the WDC in the F2012 this year, Lewis too. I think these 3 drivers are the only ones that could pull it off.

Szoelloe, on Dec 24 2012, 10:49, said:

I think Crucial wrote 'distinct' advantage, and not significant, personally, I agree. The advantage I assume is coming for real-time correlative flow of information and data, and united teamwork between engine design and car design teams. If you say that is debatable, I have no further arguments on this though, It still could mean close to nothing in the end.

Again I agree and even think the last part could be true but I think that will only come about after a couple of years honestly.

[2ms]

CrucialXtreme, on Dec 24 2012, 11:03, said:

I think these 3 drivers are the only ones that could pull it off.

I don't. I think there are about 5 drivers who could have won the WDC this year with competitive cars. I happen to think that there are two drivers who are a little better than the rest (i.e. a little more probable to win WDC all other things being equal which of course they never are essentially by nature of any racing series where cars are not identical), and that they happen to not be Hamilton or Alonso, but I certainly would never go so far as to say something like that I think only they could win the WDC, not the least of which reason is that it's OT ;)

[prty]

2ms, on Dec 24 2012, 17:21, said:

I happen to think that there are two drivers who are a little better than the rest, and that they happen to not be Hamilton or Alonso

Let me guess - Raikkonen because he is Finnish, and Vettel because he reportedly has a good relationship with Raikkonen, never had to fight against Raikkonen for a WDC, and has a common 'enemy'. Is that right?

[RealRacing]

I think this statement by dM more or less clarifies the position some of us have been claiming Ferrari has at the moment: Vettel will not be hired before Samurai leaves and he's the No. 1 driver:

"Di Montezemolo ruled out the possibility of Vettel being lined up alongside Alonso, and made it clear that his current driver was still the star of the show."

"When you have the best driver you have to put him in the best condition to succeed, to win and have a good environment without peer troubles."

Obviously he wants to praise Vettel to keep possibilities open, trying not to offend his star driver while at the same time putting a bit more pressure on him. This is classic Ferrari and they have been doing it for ages.

[bourbon]

prty, on Dec 24 2012, 17:45, said:

Let me guess - Raikkonen because he is Finnish, and Vettel because he reportedly has a good relationship with Raikkonen, never had to fight against Raikkonen for a WDC, and has a common 'enemy'. Is that right?

Or one my hold such an opinion because their memory of races like Suzuka 2005 and Brazil 2012 have proven to them that those drivers can exhibit a determination and focus to win against the odds and are proven champions. Let's say Luca decided that it was Hamilton he wanted for Ferrari - would it be because has a good relationship with Nico, never had to fight him for a WDC and has a common 'enemy'?

The bottom line is that fans - like Luca - have their reasons for championing certain drivers for certain roles and the norm is that those reasons are associated with their performance in light of the car, team and circumstances.

[2ms]

prty, on Dec 24 2012, 10:45, said:

Let me guess - Raikkonen because he is Finnish

A rather strange remark. I'm not Finnish and I don't think that Finns are superior to people or whatever.

Anyway, my opinion of who the best driver(s) in F1 is is of no consequence to the topic of this thread. I simply don't see either (a) why Vettel would go to Ferrari if what Alonso and his fans say about Ferrari is true (b) that Santander would support Vettel going to Ferrari. So I feel LdM's comments probably don't have a great deal of significance.

Edited by 2ms, 24 December 2012 - 19:31.

[SpaMaster]

It is quite surprising to some to know that most fans of a driver may not be from his own nationality. It is possible to have majority of fans to be international and not need the help of nationalistic association.

[Group B]

All the better. The idea of automatically liking/supporting/worshipping someone based entirely on where his mother happened to be when he was squeezed out has never appealed to me.

[prty]

2ms, on Dec 24 2012, 20:23, said:

A rather strange remark. I'm not Finnish and I don't think that Finns are superior to people or whatever.

Oh but you don't have to be Finnish, just be a fan of Finnish drivers. IIRC you are also a Hakkinen fan...

Seems I was right then, since that was the only part you replied to

[SpaMaster]

^ Obviously you seem to be very keen on who-is-who even though that is way off topic both for the thread and the point of those posts.

Edited by SpaMaster, 25 December 2012 - 12:42.