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Almost-moves: Engines


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#1 HistoryFan

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 18:01

Red Bull was in strong talks with Ferrari and Mercedes for an engine for 2016.

 

Do you know some almost-moves for engines?

 

McLaren with Lamborghini/Chrysler in 1994

Hesketh with Ferrari in 1976

 



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#2 HistoryFan

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 18:05

Lotus with Honda in 1963.

Hill with Alfa Romeo in 1974.

Minardi with Alfa Romeo in 1985.

Ligier with Alfa Romeo in 1987.

AGS mit MGN in 1989.

Lotus with Isuzu in 1991.



#3 Bloggsworth

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 19:47

I seem to recall that Shadow tested a Matra engine at Silverstone.



#4 paulsenna1

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 19:51

I seem to recall that Shadow tested a Matra engine at Silverstone.

And raced it in the DN7.



#5 TennisUK

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 14:05

Twice!



#6 Peter Morley

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 14:13

Tyrrell might have been one of the first teams to run a Renault turbo engine but it didn't happen - or did they test an engine in a P34?



#7 2F-001

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 14:44

In Paul Fearnley's article on the 1966 season ( current issue of Motor Sport ), it is mentioned that Brabham had considered, briefly (in '64, in anticipation of the new formula) using a V8 based on a Japanese Prince unit.

 

I can recall reading of Brabham considering a Japanese motor, but I always assumed it had some connection with Honda, as per their subsequent F2 fitment - whereas Prince seem to have been an independent concern until around '66 when absorbed into Nissan.

 

Actually, I'm not sure this would qualify as a 'almost' anything, as we are told the unit was deemed unsuitable very early on.  

 

Beyond having vaguely heard the name Prince, I knew next to nothing of the marque. I see that Wikipedia tells us it is the same as WW2 aircraft company (should have guessed that really) - and in 1946 produced an electric car.


Edited by 2F-001, 07 December 2015 - 15:18.


#8 HistoryFan

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 15:15

very interesting, thank you very much!



#9 HistoryFan

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 16:06

Ligier worked together with Maserati in the 70s in Le Mans. They also had a 3-litres engine. Were there never plans to work together in F1 as well?



#10 lustigson

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 07:38

I seem to remember rumours about Prost getting Mercedes engines for 1999 or possibly 2000.



#11 philippe7

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 22:41

Ligier worked together with Maserati in the 70s in Le Mans. They also had a 3-litres engine. Were there never plans to work together in F1 as well?

 

Ligier had produced a road car called the JS2 which was equipped with a Maserati V6 of the same guise as the one used in the Citroën SM luxury saloon car.  They ran a racing version of the JS2 with the tuned-up version of the production Maserati V6 ( which I think was around 2.4 l capacity ) in the World Sportscar Championship around 73/74 and later fitted a Cosworth in the cars which then ran as prototypes, 75 thereabouts....I don't think the Maserati engine ( which was way down on power against the "pure" 3 liter racing engines ) was ever considered in Ligier's F1 projects .....



#12 Geza Sury

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 11:47

That was one of the reasons why Alain Prost hired Nick Heidfeld for the 2000 season. Having an upcoming German driver in his team seemed to be a good asset. In the end it wasn't enough to persudade Mercedes to supply them with engines.  



#13 P.Dron

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 12:03

Lotus with Honda in 1963.

Hill with Alfa Romeo in 1974.

Minardi with Alfa Romeo in 1985.

Ligier with Alfa Romeo in 1987.

AGS mit MGN in 1989.

Lotus with Isuzu in 1991.

 

I have a photo somewhere of the MGN W12, taken a few years ago in Guy Nègre's premises near Nice, where he and his son were developing a compressed-air engine project that was going to revolutionize all our lives next year. (I believe that is still a work in progress.) The W12 was usefully compact but apparently not very light. I think it got as far as a single test installed in an old AGS before the money ran out. It probably would not have worked in any case. 



#14 Patrick Morgan

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 15:53

I took a phone call or two from Frank Williams at home when my dad was out, it must have been around 1993 or 1994.... I don't know how far down the road discussions got. I remember how weird it was to be doing my school homework only to be talking to the (at the time) most successful team owner in recent F1 history on the phone the next minute.



#15 HistoryFan

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 12:34

McLaren's Teddy Mayer wanted Renault engines for 1982 but Dennis was not happy with that.

They also talked to some engine builders like Weslake to build a turbo charged engine for them.



#16 HistoryFan

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 19:10

I talked to Klaus Ludwig some days ago and he told me that Colin Chapman was in Germany at Zakspeed to order a F1 engine by Zakspeed for his Lotus team. Zakspeed turned down the offer but Ludwig say that was a big fault because together they could had been very successful.



#17 PeterElleray

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 20:33

Odd story you've been told there History Fan, Zakspeed entered F1 in 1985, and first ran their car in testing in late 1984.

 

Do i need to add anymore.....



#18 BRG

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 20:44

Yes?  Zakspeed were running turbo versions of the BDA series of engine well before their F1 adventure and could have been a potential supplier for Lotus before Chapman's demise



#19 PeterElleray

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 21:02

Ok, then , i will add some more...

 

I'm well aware of the BDA derived Zakspeed engine and its timeline, and its possible that Chapman did ask them what they could offer, although in his bio Peter Warr relates that Chapman tasked him with finding an engine, early in 1982. Frustratingly Warr doesnt say who he spoke to besides Renault, its fair to assume it included BMW, Honda and possibly the TAG Porsche.

 

So what i find a bit odd is the implication that Chapman went to Germany to order engines from Zakspeed which, at that time, had not actually run in a car and may not even have run in 1.5 litre form on a dyno.

 

If there is any substance to the story i would be surprised if it was more than a 'fishing expedition'.



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#20 Gene Varnier

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 22:22

Tyrrell might have been one of the first teams to run a Renault turbo engine but it didn't happen - or did they test an engine in a P34?



#21 Gene Varnier

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 23:08

No, Tyrrell never did get to test the Renault Turbo in a P34 chassis. Maurice Phillippe was initially employed at Tyrrell early in 1977 to install the Renault Turbo engine into a P34 chassis and the design was mostly completed, with a mock-up partially created, but work basically stopped when Derek (Gardner) left Tyrrell in mid 1977 to return to Borg Warner. For various reasons we decided to produce a "conventional" type of Formula One car for the 1978 season with Maurice resurrecting a design he had planned to produce when trying to set up an F1 Team in conjunction with Andrew Fergusson in the mid seventies.That car became the Tyrrell 008, and Renault produced their own car in 1977 anyway.
Chevrolet in F1 in the early 1990's...."coulda" happened!

Gene Varnier

#22 PeterElleray

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Posted 28 May 2016 - 09:44

Gene - was the option to use the turbo in either the 6 wheeler or a new conventional chassis still there when the project was abandoned? Or did Renault , or elf, pull the plug on Tyrrell? Or was it clear that there were enough issues to solve in house for the works team that supplying what was still basically a rolling test bed was not viable?

 

Peter


Edited by PeterElleray, 28 May 2016 - 09:44.


#23 Gene Varnier

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Posted 28 May 2016 - 22:23

Peter, as far as I know the option of using the turbo engine stopped when Tyrrell decided to procede with a more conventional car. I'm not sure if the decision came from Renault or Elf. I would be surprised if it was Elf as they had a very good working relationship with Tyrrell, but that is not to say it was Renault's decision. Some decisions we, the "workforce", weren't made privy to😀. I would say that Renault were well aware that diluting resources between themselves and Tyrrell could have a slowing down effect on the engine programme, so they may have made the decision. All a bit inconclusive I'm afraid.

#24 PeterElleray

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 14:39

Thanks - probably the right move for Tyrrell at that time, Maurice's car and a DFV. Shame about the fan though!

 

Will be in touch

 

Peter



#25 Zippel

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 21:34

When Honda pulled out at the end of 92, Ron Dennis was thinking of purchasing Ligier to get at the Renault engines. Something Briatore ended up doing in 94 for Benetton.

As a result of Briatores purchase of Ligier, he snipered Mugen Honda engines for the team in 95 which were going to be used by Minardi.

I recall a story that Jordan got their Ford engines for 91 due to a chance meeting of Gary Anderson and one of the Ford/Cosworth managers at a pub. I think Jordan had intended on using the Judds before then and had to redesign the top engine cover to fit the Ford unit.

David Richards wanted Ford onboard at Benetton believing selling a share of the team (30%) would get them to commit to the team. However the Benetton family didn't like the idea and Richards left soon after.

Lots of rumors of Prosts engine for 2001 including Mercedes, Mugen Honda, and Supertec.

Edited by Zippel, 08 June 2016 - 21:35.


#26 HistoryFan

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 12:28

Prost and Mercedes would have been a big suprise as Mercedes was just involved with McLaren and it took a lot of more years to supply a second team.



#27 HistoryFan

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 07:42

there were rumours in 1988 about Opel is building engines for Lotus funded by Camel (like TAG/Porsche)

 

Tyrrell and some other teams wanted to buy the TAG-Porsche engines in 1984/1985 but that engines were exklusively for McLaren.

 

There were rumours in 1988 about Mercedes partnering March for the F1 entry in 1991

 

Ford wanted to have an own team or working together with Brabham before Haas joined the story...

 

In 1988 Max Mosley said that there are 5 Japanese and 3 European Manufactures wanting to enter F1.

Japanese: Subaru, Isuzu, Toyota, Yamaha, what's the fifth?

European: Lamborghini, Mercedes, Peugeot

 

Ford built a V12 engine in 1992.



#28 TennisUK

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 23:47

Presumably the fifth is Nissan. They even built a 3.5 V12 for their Group C car which would have been eligible. It was by all accounts a very undernpowered engine though...

Edited by TennisUK, 18 August 2017 - 23:47.


#29 TennisUK

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 23:49

Alfa may have been one of the European ones too, with the v10 seen in the Procar at Monza that year.

#30 john aston

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 05:46

I have a photo somewhere of the MGN W12, taken a few years ago in Guy Nègre's premises near Nice, where he and his son were developing a compressed-air engine project that was going to revolutionize all our lives next year. (I believe that is still a work in progress.) The W12 was usefully compact but apparently not very light. I think it got as far as a single test installed in an old AGS before the money ran out. It probably would not have worked in any case. 

 I saw this in the Life F1 car at Silverstone 1990 surely ? Not for long - it was about  10secs off the pace



#31 chunder27

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 07:46

Talking of Zakspeed, interesting that THEY managed to get their 4 cylinder turbo F1 engine working OK.#

 

But Cosworth, probably using much the same engine or versions of it could not!



#32 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 08:35

Zakspeed, Ilmor, Hart - Small specialist who were all very very capable.

 

:cool:



#33 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 13:14

 I saw this in the Life F1 car at Silverstone 1990 surely ? Not for long - it was about  10secs off the pace

The Life W12 engine was not the same at all as the MGN one. That one has only been tested in an old AGS once. The Life engine was of Italian origin, while the MGN was French



#34 HistoryFan

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 11:27

Yamaha was close to sign a contract with March but they wanted Suzuki to drive for March and March wanted to stay with Gugelmin and Capelli

Dennis wanted to buy Ligier in 1993 to get the Renault engines for McLaren



#35 HistoryFan

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 19:41

From Heinz Prüller's GP Story:

 

Tyrrell was close to use the BMW turbo engines that goes to Arrows instead

McLaren was in negotations to Honda engines for 1980 onwards

Williams was in talks to use Chevrolet engines in 1989



#36 HistoryFan

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Posted 28 June 2018 - 07:06

Minardi was very close to use Renault engines in 2001.



#37 Michael Ferner

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Posted 28 June 2018 - 10:45

McLaren was in negotations to Honda engines for 1980 onwards


What engine would that have been? Their old V12??? Or six NR500 engines in a row :lol:


Another case for thinkbeforeyoupost.edu

#38 nmansellfan

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Posted 28 June 2018 - 20:33

A bored out version of their F2 V6, or maybe a stroked down turbocharged version? I've read in the past that Honda started work on the F2 engine in '78 so not out of the realms of possibility that McLaren tried to lure them to F1 knowing they were building single seater engines again.

#39 TennisUK

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Posted 28 June 2018 - 21:36

Depends what ‘nearly’ means.

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#40 HistoryFan

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Posted 29 June 2018 - 08:44

What engine would that have been? Their old V12??? Or six NR500 engines in a row :lol:


Another case for thinkbeforeyoupost.edu

 

I have a better option: Write what people say. Ron Dennis was quoted in a year book from 1988 that McLaren was in strong negotations in 1980. Honda was very keen on joining Formula One back then and they realised it with Spirit some years later.

 



#41 Michael Ferner

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Posted 29 June 2018 - 09:31

Well, that's it, then. Ron Dennis wasn't even involved with McLaren in 1980. And the F 2 engine debuted only in late summer of that year. How are you going to develop a bored or stroked version (never mind a turbocharged one!) of an engine that hasn't even run yet?

#42 Tim Murray

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Posted 29 June 2018 - 10:03

The merger between Team McLaren and Project Four to form McLaren International took place in early September 1980, and the F2 V6 engine had been racing since June. Thus it’s entirely possible that Ron Dennis might have been discussing an F1 version of that engine with Honda in late 1980, for use by McLaren.

#43 Michael Ferner

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Posted 29 June 2018 - 15:23

But not that "McLaren was in negotations to use Honda engines for 1980 onwards", which was my whole point. Dennis was running a Formula Two team in 1980, so if he was in negotiations with Honda for 1980, it was surely for F 2 engines. Which, in itself, is new to me, and interesting, given that (like most writers) I had accepted the official version about Tauranac and Honda going otgether because of previous experience (where's "Brabham Ralt Honda" when you need it). In any case, the original rumour (or, "almost-move") is crap. There simply was no F 1 engine, not even an F 2 engine for McLaren to consider for 1980.

#44 HistoryFan

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Posted 29 June 2018 - 19:58

yes the negotations were in 1980.



#45 ensign14

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 08:57

At Goodwood on Saturday the commentary mentioned Toleman approached Lancia in 1981 to see whether they'd do a 1.5l turbo version of the Beta's engine.



#46 Mallory Dan

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 09:44

Yeah that rings a bell with me Ens. That winter, 80-81, there were a lot of odd rumours concerning engines/drivers/teams for the 81 season.  



#47 lustigson

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 10:03

I took a phone call or two from Frank Williams at home when my dad was out, it must have been around 1993 or 1994.... I don't know how far down the road discussions got. I remember how weird it was to be doing my school homework only to be talking to the (at the time) most successful team owner in recent F1 history on the phone the next minute.

 

Forgive my ignorance, but am I correct in assuming that your father was Paul Morgan?

 

1994 might have been the year, since during the summer, Flavio Briatore bought the Ligier team and subsequently moved its Renault engine contract to Benetton for 1995 and beyond. Perhaps Williams, losing one of it's key differentiators, was looking at alternatives.



#48 Henri Greuter

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 13:32

At Goodwood on Saturday the commentary mentioned Toleman approached Lancia in 1981 to see whether they'd do a 1.5l turbo version of the Beta's engine.


I have read about a similar request made by Arrows at that time. Given that one of thier drivers in '81 was still a certain Ricardo Patrese..... (And wasn't danielle Audetto by that time involved with Arrows too????)
Thankfully Lancia didn't went that road. Their 1.42 litere was derived from a 2 liter production engine and I somehow wonder if the FIAT/Abarth engine would have been capable of achieving what BMW achieved with a production block. Now had the engine on the Delta S4 already exisiting, then it ight have been a different matter but that one was way in the future.....

#49 WonderWoman61

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Posted 24 July 2022 - 11:15

Jordan with SMART-badged Mercedes engines for 2004 with Gary Paffett as one of the drivers and a car based on the McLaren MP4-17D.

Edited by WonderWoman61, 03 October 2022 - 22:10.


#50 WonderWoman61

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 19:17

FIRST Racing with Judd in 1989.