2033 replies to this topic

[SenorSjon]

PayasYouRace, on 14 Nov 2017 - 12:29, said:

How is that relevant to what you quoted me saying?

'Safety features can never be optional'

 

I disagree with that by my post.

[kevinracefan]

hogstar, on 14 Nov 2017 - 12:00, said:

The introduction of the halo is not about safety, it is about the FIA avoiding litigation. 

safety will then be an unintended benefit..

 

no problem..

 

better than killing drivers when there's technology available to save them..

[kevinracefan]

I find it hilarious that so many people are so "Holier Than Thou" about tobacco ads, yet are so callous about driver death protection..

 

whatabunchof.....

Edited by kevinracefan, 14 November 2017 - 12:45.

[Kalmake]

hogstar, on 14 Nov 2017 - 12:00, said:

The introduction of the halo is not about safety, it is about the FIA avoiding litigation. 

People like to parrot this, but never explain how this works.

 

Lots and lots of people have gotten hurt in FIA events. Is there a precedent where FIA got sued and lost because of something they didn't implement?

 

Certainly there are many cases where people got hurt and only afterwards a safety thing was done.

 

After 1994 Imola weekend pit lane speed limits where immediately implemented. Some other series had had them for years. It was a clear and easy safety improvement that FIA had ignored. Did they lose in courts?

 

Senna family, Wendlinger, did they have a case because cockpit sides could easily have been higher already then?

[SenorSjon]

kevinracefan, on 14 Nov 2017 - 12:36, said:

safety will then be an unintended benefit..

 

no problem..

 

better than killing drivers when there's technology available to save them..

 

The technology is called iRacing for instance...

[Camber1972]

kevinracefan, on 14 Nov 2017 - 12:34, said:

holy smokes, Rocky..

 

I can't believe how many people don't give a damn about driver's heads...

 

10 years from now people will wonder about the lunatics that raced without them...

 

pathetic response...

 

Well Kevin every sport has it's risks and I don't think F1 will be less dangerous with the Halo. If we look at other sports than maybe soccer players should ware helmets. We should stop motorracing because that's way to dangerous and cyclists should ride in a cocoon. I think the Halo is over the top and I can't see it saving somebody's live. On the contrary it may cost a live.

 

Imagine that Fernando Alonso had a Halo on his car during his accident with Esteban Gutierrez in Australia and his car caught fire? I don't think he would have got out of it alive.

Edited by Camber1972, 14 November 2017 - 13:48.

[kevinracefan]

Camber1972, on 14 Nov 2017 - 13:45, said:

Well Kevin every sport has it's risks and I don't think F1 will be less dangerous with the Halo. If we look at other sports than maybe soccer players should ware helmets. We should stop motorracing because that's way to dangerous and cyclists should ride in a cocoon. I think the Halo is over the top and I cant see it saving somebody's live. On the contrary it may cost a live.

 

Imagine that Fernando Alonso had a Halo on his car during his accident with Esteban Gutierrez in Australia and his car caught fire? I don't think he would have got out of it alive.

mrs wheldon and mrs wilson may disagree..

[kevinracefan]

SenorSjon, on 14 Nov 2017 - 13:20, said:

The technology is called iRacing for instance...

I find it hilarious that so many people are so "Holier Than Thou" about tobacco ads, yet are so callous about driver death protection..

[Camber1972]

kevinracefan, on 14 Nov 2017 - 13:47, said:

mrs wheldon and mrs wilson may disagree..

I don't know if the Halo would have saved Dan's live. But the freak accident with Justin Wilson would not have happened in F1 because there was extra weight in the front wing of the indycar.

[TomNokoe]

kevinracefan, on 14 Nov 2017 - 13:47, said:

mrs wheldon and mrs wilson may disagree..

Indycar is a different category of racing.

[SenorSjon]

kevinracefan, on 14 Nov 2017 - 13:47, said:

mrs wheldon and mrs wilson may disagree..

 

I don't know, do you? No one wants to see their loved ones die, but dragging them into the discussions doesn't help you making your point.

 

 

kevinracefan, on 14 Nov 2017 - 13:48, said:

I find it hilarious that so many people are so "Holier Than Thou" about tobacco ads, yet are so callous about driver death protection..

 

We haven't seen those ads in a decade?  Why mention it. 

 

Most people including drivers think they are protected enough.

[kevinracefan]

40 or 50 years ago they said the same about shoulder belts..

 

neanderthals eventually die and go away..

[paulb]

kevinracefan, on 14 Nov 2017 - 14:25, said:

40 or 50 years ago they said the same about shoulder belts..

 

neanderthals eventually die and go away..

 

Tell me how seatbelts impede driver vision and carry a big ugly stick.

[SenorSjon]

kevinracefan, on 14 Nov 2017 - 14:25, said:

40 or 50 years ago they said the same about shoulder belts..

 

neanderthals eventually die and go away..

 

Do you have more oneliners? I've stated before I don't want to rehash the 2-3 topics we had about the halo system, but seatbelts, neck cushions, firesuits, full face helmets, barriers instead of trees or telegraph poles are a whole different ballgame 

Edited by SenorSjon, 14 November 2017 - 14:41.

[johnmhinds]

TomNokoe, on 14 Nov 2017 - 13:58, said:

Indycar is a different category of racing.

Would you say that BTCC should have different safety concerns to WTCC just because they are different series?

 

Sure F1 and IndyCar are different series but they both have the some of the same safety issues that are inherent to all open cockpit racing which is why all of the open cockpit racing series have been looking at this issue of flying debris.

 

It would be pretty foolish for any open cockpit series to ignore this problem because all the other series are in different places.

Edited by johnmhinds, 14 November 2017 - 14:44.

[SenorSjon]

Oval racing is inherently different (and most fatalaties happen there in the modern age). 

 

In WTCC/BTCC the speeds are much lower and they have mandatory full face helmet these days. But at least the wind screen will be the first line of defence.

[superden]

All of the arguing above is interesting, if all somewhat irrelevant. The flip-flop is ugly and unnecessary but they'll do what they want, fan opinion be damned. It's never been any different and as the years roll by, it only gets worse.

For me, the flip-flop/hoop/HALO just looks s**t. To me, it embodies all that is wrong with the direction of travel F1 has embarked upon and is the latest pitstop on a route that has seen the sport fundamentally damaged since 1994/95. Ce la vie, it's just holding a mirror up to the direction that society has taken and just makes me glad I was born when I was.

I realise some will disagree, and fair play to you if you do, though I couldn't give a monkeys if my opinion is at odds with yours. Like all sports, F1 is full of fans with diverse, subjective and often radically different views. Just like mine. We can't agree for the good of the sport, any more than teams can and that is probably why those 'in charge' only pay lip service to the opinions we proffer in the numerous surveys they employ.

[johnmhinds]

SenorSjon, on 14 Nov 2017 - 14:45, said:

Oval racing is inherently different (and most fatalaties happen there in the modern age). 

 

In WTCC/BTCC the speeds are much lower and they have mandatory full face helmet these days. But at least the wind screen will be the first line of defence.

What's your point? Of course the stats show that deaths have happened more in oval racing, but crash debris and cockpit intrusion isn't an issue that is unique to oval racing that every other series can ignore.

Edited by johnmhinds, 14 November 2017 - 15:38.

[PayasYouRace]

kevinracefan, on 14 Nov 2017 - 13:47, said:

mrs wheldon and mrs wilson may disagree..

Don’t forget Mrs Surtees.

[PayasYouRace]

kevinracefan, on 14 Nov 2017 - 13:48, said:

I find it hilarious that so many people are so "Holier Than Thou" about tobacco ads, yet are so callous about driver death protection..

You’re the only one who has mentioned tobacco ads, and in repeated posts. There’s no need to bring it up, let alone spam the thread with it.

[SenorSjon]

johnmhinds, on 14 Nov 2017 - 15:16, said:

What's your point? Of course the stats show that deaths have happened more in oval racing, but crash debris and cockpit intrusion isn't an issue that is unique to oval racing that every other series can ignore.

 

Speeds are much higher and stuff tends to bounce back on track from the upper wall. The risk of getting in a secondary crash is much higher. In the end, that killed Wilson as he had no part in the crash itself.

 

Other thing is, Indycar pitstops are idiotic. All that soft tissue in the open when they purposely amass the cars during a SC-pitstop. THAT is a real safety issue. They should count their blessings everytime they get away unscathed.

[MikeTekRacing]

kevinracefan, on 14 Nov 2017 - 12:34, said:

holy smokes, Rocky..

 

I can't believe how many people don't give a damn about driver's heads...

 

10 years from now people will wonder about the lunatics that raced without them...

 

pathetic response...

 

yeah, I wonder right now. The amount of accidents this could have prevented in F1 is huge, can't think how they can even do an installation lap without one

[johnmhinds]

SenorSjon, on 14 Nov 2017 - 15:47, said:

Speeds are much higher and stuff tends to bounce back on track from the upper wall. The risk of getting in a secondary crash is much higher. In the end, that killed Wilson as he had no part in the crash itself.

 

Other thing is, Indycar pitstops are idiotic. All that soft tissue in the open when they purposely amass the cars during a SC-pitstop. THAT is a real safety issue. They should count their blessings everytime they get away unscathed.

I already said that I agree that IndyCar has more safety issues. But why would that stop F1 from dealing its own issues?

Would you really be happy if the FIA just did nothing but point their fingers at IndyCar like a petulant school child and said "he's worse why do I have to do anything"... 

 

The USA has far more gun crime than the UK, does that mean that the UK police should ignore all our gun crime? That seems to be the logic you're working with.

Edited by johnmhinds, 14 November 2017 - 16:33.

[Eff1]

Interesting to see the diverse opinions on here about this.
The Halo sure is ugly, but I don’t think the FIA in good conscience can continue to delay its introduction. Their tests have proved it will reduce the risk of projectiles hitting the drivers head, and some of the most recent high profile driver fatalities in open wheel racing have been related to head injuries sustained from projectiles/airborne debris. Imagine they didn’t introduce it in the interests of the “show” and next year we get a fatality that could have been prevented with this device.......it would be gut wrenching for those involved in that decision. Based on this, I support its introduction.

[kevinracefan]

Eff1, on 14 Nov 2017 - 16:46, said:

Interesting to see the diverse opinions on here about this.
The Halo sure is ugly, but I don’t think the FIA in good conscience can continue to delay its introduction. Their tests have proved it will reduce the risk of projectiles hitting the drivers head, and some of the most recent high profile driver fatalities in open wheel racing have been related to head injuries sustained from projectiles/airborne debris. Imagine they didn’t introduce it in the interests of the “show” and next year we get a fatality that could have been prevented with this device.......it would be gut wrenching for those involved in that decision. Based on this, I support its introduction.

exactly

[kevinracefan]

PayasYouRace, on 14 Nov 2017 - 15:32, said:

You’re the only one who has mentioned tobacco ads, and in repeated posts. There’s no need to bring it up, let alone spam the thread with it.

I bring them up because some of the same people here who can't believe a company should be allowed to sell tobacco globally  because of the human loss aspect are the same ones who don't care about driver's being maimed or loss of life..

 

not spamming, just pointing out irony..

[Dennista]

MikeTekRacing, on 14 Nov 2017 - 15:54, said:

yeah, I wonder right now. The amount of accidents this could have prevented in F1 is huge, can't think how they can even do an installation lap without one

 

What accidents?

 

How is this going to protect from a small object flying into a drivers head like Massa at Hungary? 

 

Either go full glass enclosure or nothing at all.

[rockdude101]

THEWALL, on 14 Nov 2017 - 01:09, said:

There's no amount of fan outcry that will make FIA change their minds on anything. 

 

I disagree. The fans spoke up against double points and the FIA listened. The fans spoke up against that bizarre qualifying system and the FIA listened. If enough fans speak up against the HALO they will react. 

 

 

Kraken, on 14 Nov 2017 - 12:07, said:

The FIA have spent millions and over a decade researching head protection devices.

 

See the same old arguments about Bianchi and Massa all the time. How many times do the FIA have to publish the reports on what's it designed to do etc? Do the people who post on these forums actually bother to read the technical reports or do they just think that what they "feel" outweighs the research?

And, of course, let's not forget that it was the GPDA that asked the FIA to implement a forward facing head protection device as soon as possible in July 2016.

 

 

There have been other options put forward, the FIA seems determined to go with the HALO.

 

I think all of us want a safe sport but the hang up is the aesthetics. HALO in all current forms is ugly, and an ugly product will attract less viewers. I think if they can redesign the HALO and camouflage it within the livery the complaints will ease up.  

Edited by rockdude101, 14 November 2017 - 17:30.

[Joseki]

As a spectator I hope that they'll put some nice camera angles on the halo. There's so much potential in that thing for the TV show. 

[johnmhinds]

rockdude101, on 14 Nov 2017 - 17:30, said:

I disagree. The fans spoke up against double points and the FIA listened. The fans spoke up against that bizarre qualifying system and the FIA listened. If enough fans speak up against the HALO they will react. 

Neither of those were ideas from the FIA, they were FOM ideas, and they didn't listen to the fans because they were both tried in races even though fans had pointed out how dumb they were within seconds of them being announced.

[Afterburner]

I petition we make this the official Abu Dhabi buildup thread.

[turk157]

Just for arguments sake wont the HALO make it difficult for the driver to get out quickly??

[spacekid]

kevinracefan, on 14 Nov 2017 - 14:25, said:

neanderthals eventually die and go away..

Stay classy.

[LeClerc]

turk157, on 14 Nov 2017 - 18:26, said:

Just for arguments sake wont the HALO make it difficult for the driver to get out quickly??

 

Only if he is upside-down, in which case he would have had some trouble even without halo. If shiny side up, he has something to grab onto.

 

I know it's ugly. But it is like putting a wart on the elephant-man. You won't really make it any worse.

[R Soul]

rockdude101, on 14 Nov 2017 - 17:30, said:

I disagree. The fans spoke up against double points and the FIA listened. The fans spoke up against that bizarre qualifying system and the FIA listened. If enough fans speak up against the HALO they will react. 

 

 

 

 

There have been other options put forward, the FIA seems determined to go with the HALO.

 

I think all of us want a safe sport but the hang up is the aesthetics. HALO in all current forms is ugly, and an ugly product will attract less viewers. I think if they can redesign the HALO and camouflage it within the livery the complaints will ease up.  

 

 

turk157, on 14 Nov 2017 - 18:26, said:

Just for arguments sake wont the HALO make it difficult for the driver to get out quickly??

 

Why are you two using capital letters?

[Neno]

Me when they introduce first cars in preseason tests

 

[BRG]

Dennista, on 14 Nov 2017 - 17:28, said:

How is this going to protect from a small object flying into a drivers head like Massa at Hungary?

It won't, so you can still take your sniper rifle to races.

 

It also won't protect against am aircraft crashlanding on top of the car, or a sidden earthquake opening up a bottomless chasm into which the cars plunge.  Nor will it protect against a radioactive leak from a nuclear power station.  But in the highly unlikely event of a wheel coming off another car, it might save a life, but who gives a sh8t about that?

[Knowlesy]

Roll on the whining next season.

[quaint]

BRG, on 14 Nov 2017 - 19:07, said:

It won't, so you can still take your sniper rifle to races.

 

It also won't protect against am aircraft crashlanding on top of the car, or a sidden earthquake opening up a bottomless chasm into which the cars plunge.  Nor will it protect against a radioactive leak from a nuclear power station.  But in the highly unlikely event of a wheel coming off another car, it might save a life, but who gives a sh8t about that?

 

You could make that event even more unlikely by slowing the cars down...

[PayasYouRace]

quaint, on 14 Nov 2017 - 19:30, said:

You could make that event even more unlikely by slowing the cars down...

How slow do you want to go? The old F2 cars weren’t particularly spritely but it was enough to send a wheel flying that Henry Surtess had the misfortune to collide with. That’s exactly the kind of accident the halo will protect against.

[Kraken]

Camber1972, on 14 Nov 2017 - 13:45, said:

Well Kevin every sport has it's risks and I don't think F1 will be less dangerous with the Halo. If we look at other sports than maybe soccer players should ware helmets. We should stop motorracing because that's way to dangerous and cyclists should ride in a cocoon. I think the Halo is over the top and I can't see it saving somebody's live. On the contrary it may cost a live.

 

Imagine that Fernando Alonso had a Halo on his car during his accident with Esteban Gutierrez in Australia and his car caught fire? I don't think he would have got out of it alive.

Read the research.....

[Afaf]

kevinracefan, on 14 Nov 2017 - 16:53, said:

I bring them up because some of the same people here who can't believe a company should be allowed to sell tobacco globally  because of the human loss aspect are the same ones who don't care about driver's being maimed or loss of life..

 

not spamming, just pointing out irony..

 

You care about drivers loss of life. So I assume you would be fully in favour of completely closed cockpits and reducing the car speeds by about 5s per lap. I mean if you really care as you say you do, the only way to fully remove the risk from flying debris is to close the cockpit. And reducing the cars speed would also save lives.

 

You agree?

[SenorSjon]

PayasYouRace, on 14 Nov 2017 - 19:43, said:

How slow do you want to go? The old F2 cars weren’t particularly spritely but it was enough to send a wheel flying that Henry Surtess had the misfortune to collide with. That’s exactly the kind of accident the halo will protect against.

Since then we got higher cockpit sides, better helmets and last but not least, (improved) wheel tethers. The chances for that accident happening again are very slim.

[Starchild]

Eff1, on 14 Nov 2017 - 16:46, said:

Imagine they didn’t introduce it in the interests of the “show” and next year we get a fatality that could have been prevented with this device.......it would be gut wrenching for those involved in that decision. Based on this, I support its introduction.

Sorry, but that argument is a bit weak, because you can also look at that vise-versa.

What if they introduce halo and next year we get injury or fatality caused by halo (fire, more time to get out of car, visibility...) which clearly could have been prevented if they didn't introduce it. It would be gut wrenching for those involved in that decision... 

[PayasYouRace]

SenorSjon, on 14 Nov 2017 - 20:31, said:

Since then we got higher cockpit sides, better helmets and last but not least, (improved) wheel tethers. The chances for that accident happening again are very slim.

Higher cockpit sides wouldn’t help in that case because it was a frontal impact. I don’t know if current helmets could save you from a wheel hitting you. It’s not just wheels that can fly in an accident though.

Also F1 cars, being faster, will have more energy in a typical crash. So what’s your answer? How much should the cars be slowed down?

[SenorSjon]

You forgot the wheel tethers.

If you want ultimate safety, go to the simulator and make F1 an e-sport. Safer for crew as well.

[PayasYouRace]

SenorSjon, on 14 Nov 2017 - 20:59, said:

You forgot the wheel tethers.
If you want ultimate safety, go to the simulator and make F1 an e-sport. Safer for crew as well.

No I didn’t. I said it’s not just wheels that can go flying in accidents. Teathers are only so strong anyway.

But you’ve ignored my question again.

[spacekid]

All motorsport should be banned immediately. If it saves just one life it will be worth it.

[THEWALL]

rockdude101, on 14 Nov 2017 - 17:30, said:

I disagree. The fans spoke up against double points and the FIA listened. The fans spoke up against that bizarre qualifying system and the FIA listened. If enough fans speak up against the HALO they will react. 

 

We already have spoken, heck, screamed, up against it and the reaction seems to hover around between "we say we need it for security reasons so that's final" and **silence** so I'm not holding my breath. Double points and qualifying were not safety related and were so ******** that most fans almost expected them to be discarded (not after having been tried once mind you to save face). But the Sandal is much tougher to beat because it's, supposedly, for safety reasons, so I'm not seeing that as an easy overturn, if ever. The only thing we can do, I guess, is boycott F1 sponsors and, sadly, stop watching as that is the only thing that will hit them where it hurts. I'm not very hopeful of the second one as F1 fans are so accustomed to abuse and as for the first one, personally I don't buy stuff because it's advertised in F1 and usually boycott the brands that interrupt transmissions with commercials anyway.  

[SenorSjon]

PayasYouRace, on 14 Nov 2017 - 21:01, said:

No I didn’t. I said it’s not just wheels that can go flying in accidents. Teathers are only so strong anyway.

But you’ve ignored my question again.

Your question is what should be done. My answer is nothing. I thought anyone could deduct that from my answers.