2708 replies to this topic

[eREr]

It will help but is not a gerantee for success. Look at Toyota they had the biggest budget the best facility there winttunnel is still one of the best in the world. Look at how many victories they have in the bag. The only thing that has given us is a beatifull engine in the LFA.

Success is not guaranteed. Nobody said that. They just execute their plan and we will see the results.

[Requiem84]

See my earlier comment above on this page. They double the size of Viry (in terms of m2 and headcount also). They invest heavily in Enstone and Viry. Abiteboul can say anything, I don't really care, he is a clown. Just look at the facts and you will see the direction (huge investments in Enstone, in Viry, quality recruitments both in team and driver's side, 700 people in Enstone and 400 in Viry (400 will be doubled soon). These are the facts. Of course these don't guarantee anything, but the intention is clear.

They definitely wanted to get rid of RB. Maybe not for 2019, but for 21. I think they are not too sad because of RB's decision.

They did try to convince RB to stay, didn’t they?

[eREr]

They did try to convince RB to stay, didn’t they?

This is from 2017 as a rumour and everything happened as it was speculated:
https://www.bbc.com/...rmula1/41265779

"Renault have told Red Bull they no longer want to supply them after next season and while the move has not been officially confirmed, insiders say the divorce is almost certain.

Red Bull will be forced to use Honda engines with both its teams in 2019."

Edited by eREr, 27 December 2018 - 22:15.

[Talisman]

Why is Ghosn leaving meaning their budget is unlikely to rise? I'm not hugely knowledgeable on the subject but gathered he was a notorious cheapskate, and if anything, chances are better someone new would be more likely to increase budget to protect/bolster their investment already made.
Renault are on the rise a bit, rather than a slide, so it's not a case of sunk cost fallacy.

This is what I'm hoping for anyway lol.

Because his replacement is going to be dealing with many issues far more important than F1, for example the future of the Renault Nissan alliance and whether to pursue a full merger (which probably caused Ghosn’s downfall anyway).

Cyril asking for more money isn’t going to get any attention in the near future.

[Talisman]

See my earlier comment above on this page. They double the size of Viry (in terms of m2 and headcount also). They invest heavily in Enstone and Viry. Abiteboul can say anything, I don't really care, he is a clown. Just look at the facts and you will see the direction (huge investments in Enstone, in Viry, quality recruitments both in team and driver's side, 700 people in Enstone and 400 in Viry (400 will be doubled soon). These are the facts. Of course these don't guarantee anything, but the intention is clear.

They definitely wanted to get rid of RB. Maybe not for 2019, but for 21. I think they are not too sad because of RB's decision.

Have you got any links to these sources?

[eREr]

Because his replacement is going to be dealing with many issues far more important than F1, for example the future of the Renault Nissan alliance and whether to pursue a full merger (which probably caused Ghosn’s downfall anyway).

Cyril asking for more money isn’t going to get any attention in the near future.

I think the budget for 2019 is already approved. If the team wants more money than the agreed one, then it might be problematic in the current situation. But they already have the increased budget for 2019. They have some time to start negotiating more money or the budget for 2020.

[ernestomodena]

I think the budget for 2019 is already approved. If the team wants more money than the agreed one, then it might be problematic in the current situation. But they already have the increased budget for 2019. They have some time to start negotiating more money or the budget for 2020.

 

Don't forget the politics. The team will get a hit from all this on the top. Just look at Ferrari the second half of the season.

[eREr]

Have you got any links to these sources?

https://www.evasionf...le-la-mise.html

https://www.bondyblo...-renault-sport/

[PlayboyRacer]

Well even Renault doesn't think they are race winner competitors next year. So to say he is not losing nothing. He will lose the option to fight for wins. But indeed he will not lose the option to fight for the WDC.

Firstly - your assuming Red Bull with Honda will fight for wins. That is not guaranteed.

Secondly - Daniel wants to fight for the World Championship. Now with Renault that won't happen immediately... and it may never happen... he has to navigate the next years of his career and hope he nails some decisions. Granted its a huge risk.

However he's clearly thought to himself 'I don't see Red Bull fighting for titles with Honda and, in addition, perhaps I am in a losing battle here with Max clearly the long term golden boy'.

I can understand the thinking behind all that. Others can't - so be it.

[gowebber]

Because his replacement is going to be dealing with many issues far more important than F1, for example the future of the Renault Nissan alliance and whether to pursue a full merger (which probably caused Ghosn’s downfall anyway).

Cyril asking for more money isn’t going to get any attention in the near future.

It's been stated multiple times Renault can afford anything as long as it's right for them. Money is not a problem.

[A3]

It's been stated multiple times Renault can afford anything as long as it's right for them. Money is not a problem.

 

Yet they don't have the same equipment available to them as Red Bull for instance has. Money is a problem. Maybe not for building the team according to their plan, but the plan relies on a budget cap for the upcoming years. 

[Thatfastguy]

See my earlier comment above on this page. They double the size of Viry (in terms of m2 and headcount also). They invest heavily in Enstone and Viry. Abiteboul can say anything, I don't really care, he is a clown. Just look at the facts and you will see the direction (huge investments in Enstone, in Viry, quality recruitments both in team and driver's side, 700 people in Enstone and 400 in Viry (400 will be doubled soon). These are the facts. Of course these don't guarantee anything, but the intention is clear.

They definitely wanted to get rid of RB. Maybe not for 2019, but for 21. I think they are not too sad because of RB's decision.

By that time RB had already announced TR’s switch to Honda after years of dissapointment. Their intentions to leave Renault where clear by then so it was kind of an ‘you can’t fire me, I quit’ situation.

All these ‘facts’ about factory sizes are meaningless. The facts are that Renault have produced an absolute dog of an engine every year since 2014. RB have created the right environment for Honda to flourish with their test year at TR and their development has clearly been more impressive than Renault without all this talk about money, investments and factory sizes.

Personally, i think the split is good and I hope both Renault and Honda come good. How awesome would it be if we had 4 constructors in the mix.

[Neno]

By that time RB had already announced TR’s switch to Honda after years of dissapointment. Their intentions to leave Renault where clear by then so it was kind of an ‘you can’t fire me, I quit’ situation.

All these ‘facts’ about factory sizes are meaningless. The facts are that Renault have produced an absolute dog of an engine every year since 2014. RB have created the right environment for Honda to flourish with their test year at TR and their development has clearly been more impressive than Renault without all this talk about money, investments and factory sizes.

Personally, i think the split is good and I hope both Renault and Honda come good. How awesome would it be if we had 4 constructors in the mix.

Yes, but Honda F1 Team one day. 

Edited by Neno, 28 December 2018 - 13:00.

[eREr]

By that time RB had already announced TR’s switch to Honda after years of dissapointment. Their intentions to leave Renault where clear by then so it was kind of an ‘you can’t fire me, I quit’ situation.

All these ‘facts’ about factory sizes are meaningless. The facts are that Renault have produced an absolute dog of an engine every year since 2014. RB have created the right environment for Honda to flourish with their test year at TR and their development has clearly been more impressive than Renault without all this talk about money, investments and factory sizes.

Personally, i think the split is good and I hope both Renault and Honda come good. How awesome would it be if we had 4 constructors in the mix.

Up to now the problem with Renault was that they don't invest enough money to PU development. Now when they finally do, this is meaningless.

Who cares what they produced in the past. Important thing is what they will deliver in the coming years. Without proper PU they can not be WC, they know this.

Honda was nowhere on Sundays with spec3 units compared to even Renault spec b while they changed PUs almost every weekend.

Peak power without efficiency is useless.

2019 will be a very interesting year from lots of aspects. Both Honda and Renault seem confident and we'll see what the others will deliver.

[ernestomodena]

Up to now the problem with Renault was that they don't invest enough money to PU development. Now when they finally do, this is meaningless.

Who cares what they produced in the past. Important thing is what they will deliver in the coming years. Without proper PU they can not be WC, they know this.

Honda was nowhere on Sundays with spec3 units compared to even Renault spec b while they changed PUs almost every weekend.

Peak power without efficiency is useless.

2019 will be a very interesting year from lots of aspects. Both Honda and Renault seem confident and we'll see what the others will deliver.

 

Who knows maybe the TR was just not good on tyres so that's why there races where rubbish.

[Paco]

Of course Renault didn't want RB any longer... they've been very clear with that.  RB kept wasting dino resource and time using their own lubricants (whether RB were right or wrong getting extra performance from their lubricant supplier is up for debate but according to Renault it's clear they do not believe so) and RB kept insisting on packaing issues that Renault didn't care for. 

 

RB wanted a works engine and Renault wasnt up to creasting 2 works specs so it never made sense.  They have a design direction right or wrongful in it and they want to stick to it.  On the outside of it, it seems RB requests where probably good ones, they may have found ways to get it to work better but Renault werent interested in their feedback which must have really fustrated RB. 

 

That all said, I still think RB should have kept the PU and Ricciardo stayed their for at least 1 more year..

[RobG]

Up to now the problem with Renault was that they don't invest enough money to PU development. Now when they finally do, this is meaningless.

Who cares what they produced in the past. Important thing is what they will deliver in the coming years. Without proper PU they can not be WC, they know this.

Honda was nowhere on Sundays with spec3 units compared to even Renault spec b while they changed PUs almost every weekend.

Peak power without efficiency is useless.

2019 will be a very interesting year from lots of aspects. Both Honda and Renault seem confident and we'll see what the others will deliver.

 

 

 

A lot of you keep repeating how much more money Renault is going to invest. But as Toyota have proven, money means nothing when it isn't spend on good employees. And I doubt Renault is getting any of the special guys.

 

Renault's problem wasn't just de PU, the chassis also had some big shortcomings. They need to improve both a lot to come up to speed the Mercedes. For RBR, only Honda needs to get up to speed. I reckon that challenge is a lot smaller than the one Renault is up to.

[statman]

http://f1i.com/news/...nable-cost.html

 

 

Renault's Cyril Abiteboul says F1's current level of spending isn't sustainable, insisting that future expenditures will have to come down for the manufacturer to remain committed to the sport.

[Requiem84]

If Renault are really investing properly, that is a good first step to up the performance.

Together with the signing of Ricciardo, it’s a clear sign they are serious about their ambitions.

Similar to how Honda improved, Remault has the scope to improve too.

[Rupert]

What if Renault come good in the next regulation changes? What if he gets in with Ferrari or Mercedes or whoever else is challenging for championships in a few years time? How sad are you that even at Christmas you delight in the potential misfortune of those you dislike? Did you think we couldn't see the white text at the end of your post?

Actually, I like Ricciardo.

 

you must have amazing crystal ball or trying to impersonate nostrradamus to see the future or just another armchair experts opinion

dude, it' Renault. Have you been watching F1? They never catch up, their PU is just junk and a "miracle" would be needed to change that, I'm afraid.

 

Also, the PU is not the only problem for them. Their car leaves a lot to be desired. The gap between them and RB wa huge.

[Paco]

http://f1i.com/news/...nable-cost.html

 

 

Renault's Cyril Abiteboul says F1's current level of spending isn't sustainable, insisting that future expenditures will have to come down for the manufacturer to remain committed to the sport.

 

As said by almost everybody for 2 decades... yet they still in it as well as many others.  The lack of success of late by Williams, McLaren isn't about money, bad designs.  Teams are doing well enough on small budgets like FI, Sauber, Haas etc.  Getting a win costs a lot but being respectible doesn't.   Renault with a huge amount of money paying for their engine program should be the least concerned about $$ of the mid-field as they are getting free engines or not paying much for them at this point.  Their chassis needs work but at least that is addressable..

[Maxioos]

As said by almost everybody for 2 decades... yet they still in it as well as many others.  The lack of success of late by Williams, McLaren isn't about money, bad designs.  Teams are doing well enough on small budgets like FI, Sauber, Haas etc.  Getting a win costs a lot but being respectible doesn't.   Renault with a huge amount of money paying for their engine program should be the least concerned about $$ of the mid-field as they are getting free engines or not paying much for them at this point.  Their chassis needs work but at least that is addressable..

 

I don't think it's correct also. I read past days Red Bull has to pay 50 million a year for the teams and all other cost is covered by FOM and sponsor money and deals (did read similar numbers Mercedes 2 years ago or so). I know the huge numbers advertising cost, 50 million is nothing in that perspective (In 2012, the marketing budget was around 1,4 billions of euros http://wordcloud.isc...eting-strategy/ ). The exposure the teams give is far and far more worth than those 50 million, and by that, costs aren't to high if such "profit" (exposure profit in this case) still is possible. Williams is also a example as public compagnie visible able to make profit in this sport/business. 

[Talisman]

It's been stated multiple times Renault can afford anything as long as it's right for them. Money is not a problem.

Sure. They’ve also specifically chosen NOT to match the major players so for their F1 team it clearly IS a problem.

[Neno]

Sure. They’ve also specifically chosen NOT to match the major players so for their F1 team it clearly IS a problem.

at this moment it's not. by 2021 will be 

[Fatgadget]

Firstly - your assuming Red Bull with Honda will fight for wins. That is not guaranteed.

Secondly - Daniel wants to fight for the World Championship. Now with Renault that won't happen immediately... and it may never happen... he has to navigate the next years of his career and hope he nails some decisions. Granted its a huge risk.

However he's clearly thought to himself 'I don't see Red Bull fighting for titles with Honda and, in addition, perhaps I am in a losing battle here with Max clearly the long term golden boy'.

I can understand the thinking behind all that. Others can't - so be it.

You speaking on behalf of Daniel are you?...Just curious you understand!

[eREr]

A lot of you keep repeating how much more money Renault is going to invest. But as Toyota have proven, money means nothing when it isn't spend on good employees. And I doubt Renault is getting any of the special guys.

Renault's problem wasn't just de PU, the chassis also had some big shortcomings. They need to improve both a lot to come up to speed the Mercedes. For RBR, only Honda needs to get up to speed. I reckon that challenge is a lot smaller than the one Renault is up to.

Who cares what Toyota did? For example Ferrari invested tonnes of money in the last decade without any titles. And? Nobody should try? From now on only Merc will win everything forever? Or what?

If you are not winning anything right now doesn't mean you will never win.

It seems you didn't follow this team closely. This was only their 3rd year you know. Enstone was very outdated, new buildings and facilities were built in these years. Same is happening in Viry.

These investment must deliver something better. Theoretically the first proper Renault race car shall be the R19 which has been designed in the new facilities and by the recruitments.

If they won't deliver soon (in 2019/2020), then heads will roll.

[Thatfastguy]

Who cares what Toyota did? For example Ferrari invested tonnes of money in the last decade without any titles. And? Nobody should try? From now on only Merc will win everything forever? Or what?

If you are not winning anything right now doesn't mean you will never win.

It seems you didn't follow this team closely. This was only their 3rd year you know. Enstone was very outdated, new buildings and facilities were built in these years. Same is happening in Viry.

These investment must deliver something better. Theoretically the first proper Renault race car shall be the R19 which has been designed in the new facilities and by the recruitments.

If they won't deliver soon (in 2019/2020), then heads will roll.

It’s been 5 years straight of disapointments, broken promises and absolutely terrible products both engine and chassis wise. Excuse me for being tired of excuses and wanting to see some actual progress instead of hearing about factory upgrades that mean absolutely nothing.

At this point I have much more faith in RB, who actually have all the data and have made some, you know, actual decent products and decisions these last years.

Again though, i really do hope it al works out for both Renault and Honda. Would be awesome to see them both get closer to Merc and Ferrari.

Edited by Thatfastguy, 29 December 2018 - 09:49.

[PayasYouRace]

It’s been 5 years straight of disapointments, broken promises and absolutely terrible products both engine and chassis wise. Excuse me for being tired of excuses and wanting to see some actual progress instead of hearing about factory upgrades that mean absolutely nothing.
 

 

Let's see. They took over the struggling Enstone Lotus and basically started 2016 with an update on the last Lotus. Let's see how they did.

 

2016: 9th, 8 points.

2017: 6th, 57 points.

2018: 4th, 122 points.

 

Is that not actual progress? Renault's works team had to basically start from nothing and they're now best of the rest. 

[Ivanhoe]

Let's see. They took over the struggling Enstone Lotus and basically started 2016 with an update on the last Lotus. Let's see how they did.

2016: 9th, 8 points.
2017: 6th, 57 points.
2018: 4th, 122 points.

Is that not actual progress? Renault's works team had to basically start from nothing and they're now best of the rest.

His post was related to the PU, don’t think its progress (compared to Mercedes and Ferrari) is equivalent to the progress of the team as a whole (compared to midfield and backmarker teams).

Edit: see his post is also related to the chassis (though I think it’s mainly aimed at the PU), so fair point you’re making PYR, although it can be questionned how much progress Renault made in closing the gap to the top 3.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 29 December 2018 - 10:35.

[AlexPrime]

Let's see. They took over the struggling Enstone Lotus and basically started 2016 with an update on the last Lotus. Let's see how they did.

 

2016: 9th, 8 points.

2017: 6th, 57 points.

2018: 4th, 122 points.

 

Is that not actual progress? Renault's works team had to basically start from nothing and they're now best of the rest. 

Interesting, looks like a copy of what they did after 2001 with Benetton, but they are improving more slowly. Still, it looks good 

[RobG]

Let's see. They took over the struggling Enstone Lotus and basically started 2016 with an update on the last Lotus. Let's see how they did.

2016: 9th, 8 points.
2017: 6th, 57 points.
2018: 4th, 122 points.

Is that not actual progress? Renault's works team had to basically start from nothing and they're now best of the rest.

Yeah their progress was great, if you only look at the midfield.
It's much easier to improve compared to teams who were only a few tenths faster.

RBR, Mercedes and Ferrari are in a league of their own, and renault isn't anywhere close to them. If you look at the progress compared to those 3 teams in actual pace, it all seems a lot less promising.

[ernestomodena]

Let's see. They took over the struggling Enstone Lotus and basically started 2016 with an update on the last Lotus. Let's see how they did.

2016: 9th, 8 points.
2017: 6th, 57 points.
2018: 4th, 122 points.

Is that not actual progress? Renault's works team had to basically start from nothing and they're now best of the rest.

Yes they made progress. Still others did drop the ball aswell. Haas could so be in front of them next year. FI have now money again. And who knows McLaren build a good car again. I have the feeling the change that they drop back is bigger then that they take red bull.

But that doesn't mean that there car is not making gains next year. Just that the mid-field is very close and the top 3 are miles ahead. And Renault this year was not clearly the 4th team on the grid. I personnaly would still put them 6th while the points are not showing that

[Neno]

Yes they made progress. Still others did drop the ball aswell. Haas could so be in front of them next year. FI have now money again. And who knows McLaren build a good car again. I have the feeling the change that they drop back is bigger then that they take red bull.

But that doesn't mean that there car is not making gains next year. Just that the mid-field is very close and the top 3 are miles ahead. And Renault this year was not clearly the 4th team on the grid. I personnaly would still put them 6th while the points are not showing that

Part of progress is teams dropping the ball or not making good job as previous years. If Renault wants make top 3 they will need that from Merc, Red Bull or Ferrari. Because outspending them, out resourcing and out staffing them is out the question under all circumstances.

 

People forget once upon time Red Bull was nobody. It wasnt that long ago. And they didnt start with either highest budget or fastest car or fastest drivers. They started by taking advantage of poor job of other teams over winter and reading carefully regulations. 

Edited by Neno, 29 December 2018 - 13:18.

[Maxioos]

Part of progress is teams dropping the ball or not making good job as previous years. If Renault wants make top 3 they will need that from Merc, Red Bull or Ferrari. Because outspending them, out resourcing and out staffing them is out the question under all circumstances.

 

People forget once upon time Red Bull was nobody. It wasnt that long ago. And they didnt start with either highest budget or fastest car or fastest drivers. They started by taking advantage of poor job of other teams over winter and reading carefully regulations. 

 

In F1 term's it's ages ago imo.

And the gabs are only getting bigger and bigger.

Every year the top 3 has a higher budget they can/should make gab towards lesser budget teams bigger.

Everything they bought with the extra budget is something the others don't have, have in less quality or still have to purpose which likely takes part possible extra budget coming too lesser financed teams where the better financed teams can buy other new or upgraded versions with their budget.

[Requiem84]

Let's see. They took over the struggling Enstone Lotus and basically started 2016 with an update on the last Lotus. Let's see how they did.

2016: 9th, 8 points.
2017: 6th, 57 points.
2018: 4th, 122 points.

Is that not actual progress? Renault's works team had to basically start from nothing and they're now best of the rest.

I’d be more interested to see the % gain vs Mercedes over these years..

[gowebber]

 

Yet they don't have the same equipment available to them as Red Bull for instance has. Money is a problem. Maybe not for building the team according to their plan, but the plan relies on a budget cap for the upcoming years. 

 

They only recently upped their spending so of course they don't have the resources and equipment available as the top 3 teams do, however as I said before money isn't a problem they just don't want an 'arms race' with the other teams if they can help it. Having said that they are even more determined about getting back to winning the WDC and WCC so don't count out the purse strings loosening even further at Renault. If money was a problem they sure as hell wouldn't have spend so much on getting Ricciardo or effectively doubling the resources they have recently. 

Edited by gowebber, 01 January 2019 - 11:41.

[A3]

 they just don't want an 'arms race' with the other teams if they can help it. 

 

But if you're playing catch up that is what is needed. So either they don't want to win, or they don't want to spend too much money because they're hoping for a future budget cap. 

 

I don't believe they can catch up with the top 3 teams without spending the same or more money.

[Ragnar668]

But if you're playing catch up that is what is needed. So either they don't want to win, or they don't want to spend too much money because they're hoping for a future budget cap. 

 

I don't believe they can catch up with the top 3 teams without spending the same or more money.

 

Renault aims to beat top F1 teams at "85% capacity"

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renault-aims-to-win-title-at-85-percent-capacity-1001729/1389583/

 

Good luck with that

Edited by Ragnar668, 29 December 2018 - 15:36.

[ernestomodena]

Renault aims to beat top F1 teams at "85% capacity"

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renault-aims-to-win-title-at-85-percent-capacity-1001729/1389583/

 

Good luck with that

 

I think it's possible that they evantually can get one of the three. But not all three. Just look at what FI did with there budget.

[Talisman]

They only recently upped their spending so of course they don't have the resources and equipment available as the top 3 teams do, however as I said before money isn't a problem they just don't want an 'arms race' with the other teams if they can help it. Having said that they are even more determined about getting back to winning the WDC and WCC so don't count our the purse strings loosening even further at Renault. If money was a problem they sure as hell wouldn't have spend so much on getting Ricciardo or effectively doubling the resources they have recently. 

 

When did they double the resources they have recently? Renault's budget has been pretty stable except for the steadily increasing prize money over the past three years. 2018 spending indicates that budget is clearly a problem if they are going to challenge the top 3: https://www.racefans...-2018-part-two/

Edited by Talisman, 29 December 2018 - 16:26.

[Ivanhoe]

Renault doubling their resources at Viry and Enstone for 2019 surely would have been picked up by mainstream motorsport media? Haven’t read anything about it.

https://www.evasionf...le-la-mise.html

https://www.bondyblog.fr/reportages/au-vestiaire/a-viry-chatillon-dans-les-coulisses-de-lusine-renault-sport/

Sorry, but the latter link is from February 2018 and the other from October. No proof for expanding their 2019 resources for me.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 29 December 2018 - 16:48.

[ernestomodena]

I believe that they want to have 750 empoyees in total. Don't know if that's only enstone.

[mwf1]

https://www.renaults...head.html?r=331 thats december 2018 quoting nearly 700 employees for the Enstone site alone.

[gowebber]

When did they double the resources they have recently? Renault's budget has been pretty stable except for the steadily increasing prize money over the past three years. 2018 spending indicates that budget is clearly a problem if they are going to challenge the top 3: https://www.racefans...-2018-part-two/

 

I was talking in terms of reaching recently pretty much double what they started with.

 

"Renault's push to increase its works Formula 1 team's headcount by 50% since rejoining the grid hurt its efficiency and "bang-for-buck" while developing its 2018 challenger.

 

Since reclaiming 'Team Enstone' from Lotus ahead of the 2016 season, Renault has been on an aggressive recruitment drive that will have boosted a staff of 470 to 700 by the end of this year."

 

https://www.autospor...ult-bangforbuck

 

It seems a little strange to me though that a number of Max fans seem overly concerned about Renault and Ricciardo's move. Wonder why that is? Don't see anywhere near the same sort of debate from Dan fans about Max or Red Bull in any of those related threads at the moment.

Edited by gowebber, 30 December 2018 - 05:44.

[ernestomodena]

It seems a little strange to me though that a number of Max fans seem overly concerned about Renault and Ricciardo's move. Wonder why that is? Don't see anywhere near the same sort of debate from Dan fans about Max or Red Bull in any of those related threads at the moment.

Well to be fair. I really like Dan and it's a shame that his talent is wasted in that yellow brick. And because Renault gave us the last 2 years so much to be happy about.

Ps: Brick in comparison with the top 3

Edited by ernestomodena, 30 December 2018 - 08:08.

[gowebber]

Well to be fair. I really like Dan and it's a shame that his talent is wasted in that yellow brick. And because Renault gave us the last 2 years so much to be happy about.

Ps: Brick in comparison with the top 3

 

He hasn't even started yet. Bit early to start calling it a waste. Noone knows how good or bad anyone will be in 2019. The new reg changes could mix things up even more too.

Edited by gowebber, 30 December 2018 - 08:32.

[Maxioos]

Well to be fair. I really like Dan and it's a shame that his talent is wasted in that yellow brick. And because Renault gave us the last 2 years so much to be happy about.

Ps: Brick in comparison with the top 3

 

That is told over and over again (also in this topic), Ricciardo said it himself also. There are multiple video's where Dutch fans celebrate and cheer for Dan. But, some how, some think it's forbidden to be besides Max fan, also Ric. fan or interested in Ric. and Renault their future. It's also not welcomed to be slightly negative/realistic or concerned it seems.

Edited by Maxioos, 30 December 2018 - 08:34.

[statman]

I’d be more interested to see the % gain vs Mercedes over these years..

 

Not sure if it's helpful but Chandok posted the average % gain/loss 2017-> 2018 in quali:

 

2017 - 2018 Quali average performance vs Mercedes:

 

Sauber: - 1.538%

Haas: - 0.854%

Red Bull: - 0.245%

Renault: - 0.051%

Force India: - 0.011%

Ferrari: - 0.003%

Toro Rosso: + 0.049%

McLaren: + 0.409%

Williams: + 1.072%

[Requiem84]

Not sure if it's helpful but Chandok posted the average % gain/loss 2017-> 2018 in quali:

2017 - 2018 Quali average performance vs Mercedes:

Sauber: - 1.538%
Haas: - 0.854%
Red Bull: - 0.245%
Renault: - 0.051%
Force India: - 0.011%
Ferrari: - 0.003%
Toro Rosso: + 0.049%
McLaren: + 0.409%
Williams: + 1.072%

Thanks!

So Renault is still losing out to RB (0,2%), is not making any real progress vs Ferrari or Merc...

The speed of the car in Q does not seem to correlate to their WCC progress.

[Maxioos]

 

Not sure if it's helpful but Chandok posted the average % gain/loss 2017-> 2018 in quali:

 

2017 - 2018 Quali average performance vs Mercedes:

 

Sauber: - 1.538%

Haas: - 0.854%

Red Bull: - 0.245%

Renault: - 0.051%

Force India: - 0.011%

Ferrari: - 0.003%

Toro Rosso: + 0.049%

McLaren: + 0.409%

Williams: + 1.072%

 

 

Nice list.

 

Haas is most impressive imo.. Sauber is easy (in F1 nothing is easy, but still) to gain with such backlog. McLaren's lose is bigger than i expected. General it confirms my thought the differences are relative equal and hard to close when arrived at top midfield teams.