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Rest and Be Thankful hill climb


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#1 Biggles

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Posted 10 September 2020 - 09:19

I'm searching for data on Jimmy Mactavish who entered a hill climb at The Rest in 1958.

Hopefully a programme from the event still exists somewhere, with details of his car.

Can you help, please?



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#2 WillHenderson

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Posted 10 September 2020 - 10:29

Yes, I can send you a scan of the Programme.



#3 Biggles

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Posted 10 September 2020 - 11:07

Many thanks to William.

Unfortunately there is no Mactavish listed in the programme for that 5th July 1958 event.

 

Now where?   :confused:



#4 Rupertlt1

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Posted 10 September 2020 - 12:13

You are looking for #39, registration HPX 57?
J . MacTavish (Allard) was third in class at the Rest in 1954.
Look there?

RGDS RLT

#5 Biggles

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Posted 10 September 2020 - 12:30

Many thanks Rupert.

Where may I find those results, please?



#6 Rupertlt1

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Posted 10 September 2020 - 12:53

3 July 1954, Rest and Be Thankful, Royal Scottish AC, wet

Over 3000 u/s:

1. J.G. Lockhart (Bentley) 72.90 sec

2. W.P.S. Melville (Vauxhall) 73.29 sec

3. J . MacTavish (Allard) 74.27 sec

Source: Motor Racing, September 1954, Page 325

 

A photograph of the Allard appeared in the Autocar report?

 

RGDS RLT 



#7 Biggles

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Posted 10 September 2020 - 13:55

Thanks again, Rupert.

I've ordered a copy of Autocar of 9th July 1954 for the Rest report.



#8 BRG

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Posted 10 September 2020 - 15:30

As a adjunct, whatever came of this proposal for a Scottish Motorsport Heritage Centre at the top of the hill?



#9 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 14 September 2020 - 09:02

I think the practicalities, viability, security and cost ruled it out. 



#10 Rupertlt1

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Posted 01 October 2020 - 14:18

Bump. Any feedback ref MacTavish in 1954?

 

RGDS RLT



#11 bradbury west

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Posted 01 October 2020 - 21:58

Autosport offered no more info than you gave in post 6 in their report.
Roger Lund

#12 Rupertlt1

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Posted 06 October 2020 - 09:59

Ray Fielding (HWM) class winner 1953, 1501-3000 c.c., 63.62 sec

Also was a class winner at The Rest in 1954, 70.79 sec; 1956, 62.74 sec; 1957, 60.96 sec. Ran Alta-Jaguar in 1958, 3rd in class, 61.68 sec. Ray Fielding class winner 1955 - but no data?

Looking for race numbers?

Moderators: can you remove 1958 from title.

 

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 06 October 2020 - 11:05.


#13 cooper997

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Posted 09 October 2020 - 10:42

Rupert, not much help with numbers, but in relation to 1955 the July 8 Autosport report mentions Ray running the Alta and HWM. Plus Mrs Doreen Fielding ran the HWM.

 

 

Stephen



#14 Rupertlt1

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Posted 11 October 2020 - 15:48

Biggles - any sign of that Autocar report at the Rest, 1954?

 

RGDS RLT



#15 Roger Clark

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 07:23

I have The Autocar for 9th July 1954. There is a photograph of MacTavish but no mention in the report. 



#16 Rupertlt1

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 19:25

I have The Autocar for 9th July 1954. There is a photograph of MacTavish but no mention in the report. 

 

Can you identify the car - race #, registration?

 

See post #4.

 

RGDS RLT



#17 Roger Clark

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 23:03

Race number is 58, reg is difficult to read but could be HPX 57.



#18 Rupertlt1

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 23:28

I can't find this Allard anywhere else - could be an 'unknown' car?

As pointed out by John Brown on FB: "PX was a West Sussex area code but that probably does not help!!!"

I think the car ran at the Rest on at least one other occasion?

RGDS RLT

#19 Roger Clark

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Posted 20 October 2020 - 09:39

I don't know much about Allards but the car is a very stark two-seater with cycle wings and a pointed tail.  In March 1952, motor sport published an article by Boddy about early Allards.  This car doesn't seem to fit any of the pre-war cars but could it be one of the early post-war J-types?



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#20 Dutchy

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Posted 21 October 2020 - 12:10

This subject has been discussed on the VSCC Forum and Biggles came to the conclusion that the car in question is a special based on a Lincoln V12 and not an Allard.



#21 Roger Clark

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Posted 22 October 2020 - 07:15

I have read the thread on the VSCC forum and I don’t think Biggleswade gave his reasons for that conclusion.  I can only say that The Motor, The Autocar and Autosport all said that MacTavish drove an Allard at the Rest in 1954. Is it likely that they would have done that without, at least, reading the programme?

 

Edit: I should have added that The Motor and Autosport reports were written by the same person. 


Edited by Roger Clark, 22 October 2020 - 07:17.


#22 Stephen W

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Posted 22 October 2020 - 08:15

This subject has been discussed on the VSCC Forum and Biggles came to the conclusion that the car in question is a special based on a Lincoln V12 and not an Allard.

 

 

I have read the thread on the VSCC forum and I don’t think Biggleswade gave his reasons for that conclusion.  I can only say that The Motor, The Autocar and Autosport all said that MacTavish drove an Allard at the Rest in 1954. Is it likely that they would have done that without, at least, reading the programme?

 

Edit: I should have added that The Motor and Autosport reports were written by the same person. 

 

Would it be possible that the car was a special that used an Allard chassis and Lincoln V12 engine & suspension?

 

I can also confirm that a lot of reports on hillclimbs and sprints were written "in absentia" as I have done that myself on many occasions. I once provided the photos for a Doune hillclimb to Autosport who got a Scottish journalist who was racing at Knockhill to write the report. Meanwhile I wrote the report for another magazine.



#23 Rupertlt1

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Posted 23 October 2020 - 11:57

So when did #39, HPX 57, appear at the Rest? Is it MacTavish?

 

Can somebody supply/post the picture from Autocar?

 

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 23 October 2020 - 12:01.


#24 Roger Clark

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Posted 26 October 2020 - 08:10

In Graham Gauld’s book, Jim Clark, The Legend Lives On it says that he competed at Rest and Be Thankful on June 28th 1958 and again on July 5th. In both cases he drove Ian Scott Watson’s Porsche and his own TR3. Jim Clark At The Wheel says the same. 
 

The July event was reported in Autosport but I have been unable to find anything about an event in June. It seems strange that there should be two events at the Rest on successive weekends. In fact, I thought they only held one a year. 
 

Has anybody got more information?



#25 Tim Murray

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Posted 26 October 2020 - 08:46

David Spry’s Clark website has programmes for the Charterhall race meetings on 29th June and 6th July, and for the Rest And Be Thankful hill climb on 5th July. There’s no programme or report for the RABT hill climb on 28th June, but there are reports on both the Charterhall events. Both say that the relevant event was held the day after a RABT hill climb, which would seem to indicate that there were two RABT hill climbs on successive weekends.

https://charterhall....y.com/1958.html

#26 Stephen W

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Posted 26 October 2020 - 09:04

David Spry’s Clark website has programmes for the Charterhall race meetings on 29th June and 6th July, and for the Rest And Be Thankful hill climb on 5th July. There’s no programme or report for the RABT hill climb on 28th June, but there are reports on both the Charterhall events. Both say that the relevant event was held the day after a RABT hill climb, which would seem to indicate that there were two RABT hill climbs on successive weekends.

https://charterhall....y.com/1958.html

 

I suspect that the June meeting was a "local event" for the Scots as the 5th July event was a round of the British Hillclimb Championship. 



#27 2F-001

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Posted 26 October 2020 - 10:01

Chris Mason’s Uphill Racers describes the meeting (at RaBT) at which Clark finished 1st and 2nd in the same class - no date or event status is specified, but the context suggests that this was the Championship meeting.

I can see no reference there to the earlier event (using the same pair of cars), but then there are references to Clark in other (e.g. more minor) meetings that are not indexed, and many references are included non-chronologically (and the index is, how shall we put it, selective) so who knows what else might be in there that I’ve forgotten.

 

(Whilst I am reluctant to criticize such a huge labour-of-love undertaking, Mason’s book is a disaster as a reference work; maybe it wasn’t meant to be that, but a huge wodge of stats at the end - and an editor and some judicious subheadings - would have been welcome!)



#28 Roger Clark

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Posted 26 October 2020 - 12:12

Thanks for the replies.  It seems from the Charterhall website that there were two Rest meetings.   It was interesting that Jimmy Stewart competed in the July meeting despite having more or less retired a few years earlier.  I wonder if his young brother went along.  I also liked the scoring system for the Scottish championship where the points awarded depended on the number of starters.  Was that common?



#29 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 27 October 2020 - 05:24

The International Conference of Sports Car Clubs (in BC, Washington, Oregon, etc) used to award points depending on the number of starters.  Not any more, though.

 

Vince H.



#30 Stephen W

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Posted 27 October 2020 - 09:09

Thanks for the replies.  It seems from the Charterhall website that there were two Rest meetings.   It was interesting that Jimmy Stewart competed in the July meeting despite having more or less retired a few years earlier.  I wonder if his young brother went along.  I also liked the scoring system for the Scottish championship where the points awarded depended on the number of starters.  Was that common?

 

The points system where dependant on the number of starters in a specific class it varies has been in use for years in the British Hillclimb Leaders Championship. The fewer the entries the lesser the points gained for a win.



#31 D-Type

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Posted 29 October 2020 - 15:37

In Graham Gauld’s book, Jim Clark, The Legend Lives On it says that he competed at Rest and Be Thankful on June 28th 1958 and again on July 5th. In both cases he drove Ian Scott Watson’s Porsche and his own TR3. Jim Clark At The Wheel says the same. 
 

The July event was reported in Autosport but I have been unable to find anything about an event in June. It seems strange that there should be two events at the Rest on successive weekends. In fact, I thought they only held one a year. 
 

Has anybody got more information?

I suspect this is probably an error at proof-reading stage: the author spots the error, corrects it but fails to delete the erroneous data.  And once it's in print ... everyone takes it as gospel.(Not originally my suggestion, but put forward by someone who would know)

 

I also feel that with the limited number of enthusiasts in Scotland, both to run the event and compete in it, events on consecutive weekends at the same venue are unlikely.  The entrants were all amateurs and the logistics of trailering a racing car from, say, Aberdeen to the meeting and then back home would have been complicated enough without having to repeat it the next week.  And the police involvement, closing roads, directing traffic etc two weekends running.

 

Was the Scottish Magazine Motor World in existence at the time?  And the obvious follow up: does anyone have a copy?


Edited by D-Type, 29 October 2020 - 20:08.


#32 Doug Nye

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Posted 29 October 2020 - 19:10

Where's Graham Gauld's input when we need it?  I'm contacting him...

 

DCN



#33 Doug Nye

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Posted 30 October 2020 - 12:23

From Graham Gauld

I have been looking at this particular story since the start but I am afraid the Aurtosport Nostalgia Forum honchos now will not let me log in even though I have been logging in for the past twenty years.  Do they think I am dead ?

Anyway thanks to Doug and Can throw in my threepence worth.

 

The McTavish family who ran the garage at Arrochar always supplied the breakdown wagon for the Climb and though I have most of my cuttings as sports editor of Motor World I sadly did not keep cuttings for the 1958 or 1959 seasons. However, I did find that in my report of the Rest and be Thankful hill climb of July 13 1956, two years before, where I wrote  “ …Nick Newall’s Jaguar was driven well while McTavish’s Allard of pre-war manufacture still went lustily “

This at least establishes the fact that it was one of Sydney Allard’s cars from the late 1930s.

 

My photo below shows a MacTavish tow truck clearing Mackay's TVR from the hill after a 'minor' indiscretion.

 

GAULD-300-TVR-Mackay-Mactavish-tow-Copy-

 

In that particular hill climb McTavish finished 6th in the class for over 2 litre sports cars right behind Doreen Fielding driving Ray Fielding’s HWM Jaguar. For those interested the results for the whole of Class 8  were :

 

Raymond Fielding            HWM Jaguar 62.24

Ted Evans                            Austin Healey 100S   66.40

Pat Melville                        Vauxhall 30/98    67.61

Nick Newall                         Jaguar XK120      67.87

J McTavish                          Allard                    72.59

Andrew McCosh               Bentley                 73.18 

“ Tom Dryver”                   Daimler Spl         76.82

Doreen Fielding (below) won the ladies prize and Pat Melville  the Vintage prize with McCosh second.

 

GAULD-300-Doreen-FIELDING-HWM-Jag.jpg

 

Copyright photos by Graham Gauld/GPL

 

GG (DCN)


Edited by Doug Nye, 30 October 2020 - 20:11.


#34 RobMk2a

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Posted 30 October 2020 - 18:14

Bill Mackay was in Bunty Scott Moncrieff's Coffee Bean. 

 

Rob 



#35 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 October 2020 - 21:38

So we can now take it that the car involved was an Allard from about 1938, did not have the split front axle and was powered by a Lincoln Zephyr V12?

 

Is there any evidence of the engine capacity?



#36 Rupertlt1

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Posted 31 October 2020 - 13:01

So we can now take it that the car involved was an Allard from about 1938, did not have the split front axle and was powered by a Lincoln Zephyr V12?

 

Is there any evidence of the engine capacity?

 

The car appeared at R&BT in 1954, #58, and 1956 (#39?). Any other appearances?

The comprehensive rundown of pre-war Allard cars in Motor Sport in March 1952 does not refer to this car.  Could HPX 57 have been re-registered?

 

RGDS RLT



#37 BRG

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Posted 14 November 2020 - 19:33

Not quite on topic, but the old road is proving very useful this year as the new road (A83) is closed again by a landslide - the second this year, and the old military road is the only way through.   Maybe they knew better about where to build a road back in the day!



#38 D-Type

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Posted 14 November 2020 - 21:25

Well, rather than General Wade getting it right, I reckon any wannabe rockfalls and landslides have probably aalready fallen down in the last 300 years, 



#39 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 15 November 2020 - 11:18

The regional council got the old road, now privately owned, resurfaced for just such emergencies due to the two hour diversion when the "new" road is closed. 



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#40 cooper997

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Posted 15 November 2020 - 12:06

Via social media this National Library of Scotland 1950 colour footage has come to light. Wonderful!

 

https://movingimage.nls.uk/film/2120

 

 

 

Stephen



#41 Doug Nye

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Posted 15 November 2020 - 14:01

WOW!   The Spike Rhiando Trimax in action - and in living colour - Dennis Poore's big Alfa 8C-35 - oh, and men in skirts...

 

DCN



#42 ensign14

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Posted 15 November 2020 - 14:55

6022908806_9ca2d92bdf_b.jpg

 

This is somewhere there a few years ago...



#43 Collombin

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Posted 15 November 2020 - 14:59

Shouldn't you have been trying to talk them out of jumping, rather than photographing their final moments?

#44 nca

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Posted 15 November 2020 - 19:40

WOW!   The Spike Rhiando Trimax in action - and in living colour - Dennis Poore's big Alfa 8C-35 - oh, and men in skirts...

 

DCN

 

I first spectated at the Rest in the early years of the '60s.

What strikes me about the spectators in the film are the crowds on the hillside and how well dressed they were. Not a pair of Jeans in sight, at a time when wearing the kilt was not unusual.

Is that saloon with it's body work partialy removed a Jowett?

 

nca



#45 john aston

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Posted 16 November 2020 - 07:03

 1950 England - and I'm sure Scotland too,  was pre -jean , pre teenager , pre pop music., pre most things fun (if you know your Philip Larkin)   I can almost hear the words 'You'll have had your tea ? ' , watching this wonderful film -not an era I pine for but it is fascinating nevertheless 



#46 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 16 November 2020 - 18:04

At these events, and indeed photos of prewar trials in obscure places I always wonder at the huge number of spectators who managed to get there -  and in their Sunday best.



#47 Doug Nye

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Posted 16 November 2020 - 18:09

From Graham Gauld, re R&BT movie footage:

 

"I remember seeing that Rest and Be Thankful film about fifty years ago and it is a bit of a classic.  It is funny because a few minutes into the film when they have been showing all the officials lined up there is a shot of three men sitting on a wall. 

 

"The man on the left is George H. Cutbush who was my Editor when I joined Motor World in 1955, the middle one was the Advertising mnanager and the guy on the right in glasses was Alex Bruce who was a pal of Gregor Grand and was the first Autosport Scottish Correspondent,  then Alasdair Ford was the second, I was the third and dear old Bill Henderson was the fourth and last.  How time flies.If you look at the Rest Film again and notice the Big blue wooden “Office” at the top. Well, for the last five years of Rest and Be Thankful Hill Climb I was the commentator which meant getting there at about 8.00 in the morning and starting from 09.00 talking for the next eight and a half hours save for a brief sandwich for lunch. No help  

 

"Also if you look closely early on there is a shot of what looks like an Allard , not the J2s that came later, which might have been McTavish.   The bright yellow special with the guy wearing the yellow crash helmet was Nigel Kennedy’s  “BirdMonk” Special which was named after Birds Custard and Monks Custard.  We had fun in those days.  GG"



#48 Rupertlt1

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Posted 16 November 2020 - 18:23

Presumably Gregor Grant?

 

RGDS RLT



#49 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 November 2020 - 22:40

Yes, nca, that's definitely a Jowett Javelin...

 

You can see the flat four in the front, no sign of the radiator because it lives up behind and above the engine.

 

A great piece of historical footage.



#50 Stephen W

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Posted 17 November 2020 - 08:07

At these events, and indeed photos of prewar trials in obscure places I always wonder at the huge number of spectators who managed to get there -  and in their Sunday best.

 

A lot of coach trips to these events were organised locally as well as motor clubs from further afield running train trips close to the event then coaches to the venue.