347 replies to this topic

[Squeed]

Rodaknee, on 29 Sept 2020 - 11:49, said:

Having a 'source' should be enough to provoke an investigation into what is happening in the Stewards office during the weekend.  We've seen a screen grab of the Stewards at work, there must be footage available during the time period when the incident came to their attention and it should be possible to see if anyone got on their phone. 

 

There's a lot of F1 gambling, I'd expect the betting companies will be looking at whether there was any large bets altered or added just before the start.  Even if there were not, they will not like to think there are leaks involving penalties minutes before a race starts.  I'd be very pissed off if I had money on Hamilton winning only to discover there was a penalty that wasn't announced until after the start.  Not being a gambler, I wonder if that would invalidate a bet.

Every degenerate gambler in Finland was on Bodog in 2 seconds flat to see if they could get their bets in before the line changed.

[AustinF1]

masa90, on 29 Sept 2020 - 14:04, said:

So Salo is guilty before any actual evidence proves his guilt? Oh right....

Seems so from what I'm reading ... he must prove his innocence rather than anyone having to prove his guilt. Interesting.

[AustinF1]

Betting any significant amount of money on sport is crrraaaaazzy.

[l12mcg]

AustinF1, on 29 Sept 2020 - 18:29, said:

Seems so from what I'm reading ... he must prove his innocence rather than anyone having to prove his guilt. Interesting.

Salo is just the most obvious link, so obviously he’s going to be mentioned.

The FIA need to investigate, we as random people on the forums can hold any opinion we want, it’s not a legal issue.

——

The evidence that someone did something wrong is pretty overwhelming, it’s unfortunate that Salo is the obvious candidate for having done it if it wasn’t him.

But if Sky F1 started getting hit tips out the stewards room on weekends where Herbert was the Steward I’d have been suggesting it was him as well...

[Topsu]

One more clip added to the timeline.

 

15:32 and 16:17

 

https://streamable.com/iybf1k

 

-A few minutes later, for some reason Juusela claims that the stewards are confirming the 4 penalty points, and he seems convinced that Hamilton is going to get banned from the next race, as if the "source" just confirmed it. He then happens to mention how Mika Salo is a steward for the weekend. From this point on until lap 36, they are convinced about Hamilton getting the race ban. Then at 16:17 on lap 36, Juusela seemingly gets the official announcement of Hamilton getting 1+1 penalty points. I assume this is around the moment the penalty points were officially released? After that, Juusela mentions how they have been getting their information from "quite close to the stewards" during the course of the race, and this information is now getting confirmed.

Edited by Topsu, 30 September 2020 - 01:24.

[Mishvili]

Even if one of the Stewards was leaking information, you would assume they would take the precaution of doing it via a third party to allow “deniability”, should they come under suspicion. So commentator can deny receiving info direct from a steward, and stewards can deny having told the media.

Even if the practical result is the same.

[Mishvili]

A reasonable question would be whether this Finnish channel have a history of giving the impression of an inside line to the stewards office, and whether there’s any sort of pattern to the times when they are.

[Huffer]

I'm not all that bothered if Salo did or did not contact a journalist about the penalty. It would be unprofessional for him to do so, but not really the end of the world. It's a small mark in his report card if he did indeed pass information on before the notice was issued.

 

What really concerns me is the language used afterwards in response to Hamilton's poorly chose words. I know that many will pass this off as him "speaking his mind" or whatever excuse, but it revealed a worrying side to Salo and his role as a steward. A lot of the time, it's not so much what a person says that is the issue but how is said; anybody who has had experience of managing people will know to pay attention to that sort of thing. His outburst after the race, at least to me, displays a severe lack of ability to be objective when faced with criticism and I would worry that this lack of objectivity would carry over to the next race that he officiates.

 

Even if that criticism is unearned, and let's be honest, it was (even though the penalty points made no real sense). the stewards need to be above reproach in their dealings with the drivers that they have to judge. 

[milestone 11]

Topsu, on 30 Sept 2020 - 01:22, said:

One more clip added to the timeline.
 
15:32 and 16:17
 
https://streamable.com/iybf1k
 
-A few minutes later, for some reason Juusela claims that the stewards are confirming the 4 penalty points, and he seems convinced that Hamilton is going to get banned from the next race, as if the "source" just confirmed it. He then happens to mention how Mika Salo is a steward for the weekend. From this point on until lap 36, they are convinced about Hamilton getting the race ban. Then at 16:17 on lap 36, Juusela seemingly gets the official announcement of Hamilton getting 1+1 penalty points. I assume this is around the moment the penalty points were officially released? After that, Juusela mentions how they have been getting their information from "quite close to the stewards" during the course of the race, and this information is now getting confirmed.

It sounds to me as though it was Salo himself that was advocating the 2+2 points and was overruled by the other Stewards. The driver Steward doesn't vote anyway they're there solely in an advisory capacity.

[ANF]

Or maybe the stewards agreed on 2+2 but changed their mind when they realised it would mean a total of 12 points and a race ban?

[Izzyeviel]

AustinF1, on 29 Sept 2020 - 18:29, said:

Betting any significant amount of money on sport is crrraaaaazzy.

And a lot of people do it, some do it in such large amounts they can give the participants money to influence decisions and/or provide them with inside info before the public gets it. Normal people end up losing money. The sport loses integrity and sponsors stay away.

 

which is why the FIA need to make clear this behaviour will not be tolerated in the future.

[Clatter]

milestone 11, on 30 Sept 2020 - 10:26, said:

It sounds to me as though it was Salo himself that was advocating the 2+2 points and was overruled by the other Stewards. The driver Steward doesn't vote anyway they're there solely in an advisory capacity.

 

It is not just an advisory role, the driver steward also votes on decisions. The stupid thing is so many seem to think the decisions are his alone, and instantly blame the driver steward for any decision they don't like.

[Clatter]

ANF, on 30 Sept 2020 - 10:34, said:

Or maybe the stewards agreed on 2+2 but changed their mind when they realised it would mean a total of 12 points and a race ban?

 

Maybe, but that really should not be part of the decision making process.

[milestone 11]

Clatter, on 30 Sept 2020 - 12:04, said:

It is not just an advisory role, the driver steward also votes on decisions. The stupid thing is so many seem to think the decisions are his alone, and instantly blame the driver steward for any decision they don't like.

I may of course be wrong but I'd always been under the impression that the driver Steward didn't vote.

[ANF]

Clatter, on 30 Sept 2020 - 12:08, said:

Maybe, but that really should not be part of the decision making process.

Exactly.

[Clatter]

milestone 11, on 30 Sept 2020 - 12:34, said:

I may of course be wrong but I'd always been under the impression that the driver Steward didn't vote.

 

Thats what I thought it was supposed to be, but It came up when Hill was a steward that he was unhappy about having to act as a full steward, rather than just an advisor. Unless there has been changes since I still believe they are a steward rather than advisor.

[milestone 11]

Clatter, on 30 Sept 2020 - 13:29, said:

Thats what I thought it was supposed to be, but It came up when Hill was a steward that he was unhappy about having to act as a full steward, rather than just an advisor. Unless there has been changes since I still believe they are a steward rather than advisor.

Oh, OK. I didn't know that, thanks.

Edited by milestone 11, 30 September 2020 - 13:39.

[Claudius]

All I've seen so far are speculations, innuendos and conspiracies.

Salo is probably not the only one in the room with a phone. 

 

While I think it's not good for the sport to have stewards leak to the media before the offcial announcments are made, I still don't see credible evidence Salo is the one who leaked.

[Jvr]

milestone 11, on 30 Sept 2020 - 10:26, said:

It sounds to me as though it was Salo himself that was advocating the 2+2 points and was overruled by the other Stewards. The driver Steward doesn't vote anyway they're there solely in an advisory capacity.

That is 180 degrees different to what I think: Salo has always been advocating sporting side of the things i.e. let them race.

So _if_ Salo was the leak (big if) I can rather see him leaking the current thinking of the majority of the Stewards while persuading the others to mitigate the penalty points so that Lewis would not get a race ban.

[milestone 11]

Jvr, on 30 Sept 2020 - 13:46, said:

That is 180 degrees different to what I think: Salo has always been advocating sporting side of the things i.e. let them race.

So _if_ Salo was the leak (big if) I can rather see him leaking the current thinking of the majority of the Stewards while persuading the others to mitigate the penalty points so that Lewis would not get a race ban.

Not so sure of that Jvr, Salo is something of a pompous arse considering earlier quotes from him. This from May this year,

 

Asked whether fans’ criticism about incorrect decisions carries weight, Salo gave a deadpan response: “We have access to everything. We are never wrong.”

[Rodaknee]

Claudius, on 30 Sept 2020 - 13:45, said:

All I've seen so far are speculations, innuendos and conspiracies.

Salo is probably not the only one in the room with a phone. 

 

While I think it's not good for the sport to have stewards leak to the media before the offcial announcments are made, I still don't see credible evidence Salo is the one who leaked.

The FIA stewards are in a nice little club with their free trips around the world.  Who is going to rock their boat, as I believe they also hold positions at the FIA.  If nothing else, the FIA should use driver stewards who have no direct links to the media.  There are plenty of them around, as they've been used in the past, Mansell for example.

[Topsu]

Claudius, on 30 Sept 2020 - 13:45, said:

All I've seen so far are speculations, innuendos and conspiracies.

Salo is probably not the only one in the room with a phone. 

 

While I think it's not good for the sport to have stewards leak to the media before the offcial announcments are made, I still don't see credible evidence Salo is the one who leaked.

The only credible evidence would be the message logs of the CMore production and the people who had access to the stewarding decisions/deliberations. And well, the fact that Juusela admitted there being a source for their information. Salo denies being the leaker, fair enough, but he is the only one with a known, and very close, connection to the CMore production. He worked there just last month during the Silverstone GP. Do any of the other stewards know anyone at CMore? I don't know. I think that is highly unlikely, as CMore have been doing the majority of their broadcasts from Finland for years. I doubt their immediate connections on the paddock are very extensive at this point. Do we know if the stewards have assistants? Maybe that could be the connection, behind the stewards' backs.

Edited by Topsu, 30 September 2020 - 14:12.

[Marklar]

milestone 11, on 30 Sept 2020 - 10:26, said:

It sounds to me as though it was Salo himself that was advocating the 2+2 points and was overruled by the other Stewards. The driver Steward doesn't vote anyway they're there solely in an advisory capacity.

 

 

Jvr, on 30 Sept 2020 - 13:46, said:

That is 180 degrees different to what I think: Salo has always been advocating sporting side of the things i.e. let them race.

So _if_ Salo was the leak (big if) I can rather see him leaking the current thinking of the majority of the Stewards while persuading the others to mitigate the penalty points so that Lewis would not get a race ban.

 

my headcanon is that they all wanted to go for 2x2 and then somebody from the FIA stormed in

[milestone 11]

Marklar, on 30 Sept 2020 - 14:14, said:

my headcanon is that they all wanted to go for 2x2 and then somebody from the FIA stormed in

Masi.

[gillesfan76]

PayasYouRace, on 27 Sept 2020 - 13:29, said:

It's unprofessional but is it actually affecting the stewards decisions?

 

That’s a good question. I wonder if it could be affecting his part in the decisions if for example he could be getting something out of leaking the information. If there is some positive feedback loop for him, where he is getting rewarded in some way for leaking of the information, then it might influence him to have, or create, information worthy enough to leak. By “getting rewarded” I’m not necessarily implying that there is a financial reward, although being paid by media isn’t that far fetched. But rather he could be getting some emotional reward.

 

What would we think of a jury member leaking sentencing decisions prior to them being read out in court? Would that juror be trust worthy?

 

Maybe Salo doesn’t think he is doing anything unprofessional but the FIA already have a credibility problem and this doesn’t help.

[Jvr]

milestone 11, on 30 Sept 2020 - 13:53, said:

Not so sure of that Jvr, Salo is something of a pompous arse considering earlier quotes from him. This from May this year,

 

Asked whether fans’ criticism about incorrect decisions carries weight, Salo gave a deadpan response: “We have access to everything. We are never wrong.”

He's always that and always has been.

 

However, his comments on the racing side are usually rather accurate and defending drivers even in silly situations.

[Bleu]

Salo once told about decision-making when Kimi was speeding under yellows in Spa. Basically he ordered to review onboards of all drivers. After that it was clear that Kimi didn't lift an inch while the rest showed some sort of lifting so Kimi got the penalty.

[ARTGP]

Jvr, on 30 Sept 2020 - 15:55, said:

He's always that and always has been.

 

However, his comments on the racing side are usually rather accurate and defending drivers even in silly situations.

 

 

I take offense to this  .  He seemed like a solid fellow back in the GT days.

[jjcale]

I imagine it would probably be private but has anyone hear of any reaction by the FIA to these rumours? I am not expecting a press release but an if they did and internal investigation that would probably leak at some point.... but so far I am not aware of any response at all.

 

I would think that they would not want these rumours to float about unaddressed ... or maybe that is the better alternative for them.

[Vesuvius]

Topsu, on 30 Sept 2020 - 14:11, said:

The only credible evidence would be the message logs of the CMore production and the people who had access to the stewarding decisions/deliberations. And well, the fact that Juusela admitted there being a source for their information. Salo denies being the leaker, fair enough, but he is the only one with a known, and very close, connection to the CMore production. He worked there just last month during the Silverstone GP. Do any of the other stewards know anyone at CMore? I don't know. I think that is highly unlikely, as CMore have been doing the majority of their broadcasts from Finland for years. I doubt their immediate connections on the paddock are very extensive at this point. Do we know if the stewards have assistants? Maybe that could be the connection, behind the stewards' backs.

Not entirely true, actually Cmore (mtv mtv3) have done majority of their broadcast from the circuits. Mervi Kallio and Tomi Pulkkinen are present in every GP(not this season due to Corona) and Niki on most of the GPs.

[Fastcake]

Rodaknee, on 30 Sept 2020 - 13:57, said:

The FIA stewards are in a nice little club with their free trips around the world. Who is going to rock their boat, as I believe they also hold positions at the FIA. If nothing else, the FIA should use driver stewards who have no direct links to the media. There are plenty of them around, as they've been used in the past, Mansell for example.

I seem to remember Nigel Mansell being a steward and talking to Brundle on the grid as to who he wanted to win the race, which is arguably much worse.

[Jvr]

ARTGP, on 01 Oct 2020 - 12:11, said:

I take offense to this  .  He seemed like a solid fellow back in the GT days.

Well, you really should not.

 

What I mean Salo is most definitely the most arrogant personality of the current and ex Finnish F1 drivers. 

Keke might come close but not very.

[fed up]

Jvr, on 01 Oct 2020 - 15:18, said:

Well, you really should not.

 

What I mean Salo is most definitely the most arrogant personality of the current and ex Finnish F1 drivers. 

Keke might come close but not very.

 

Saying (on the record) that Lewis is full of s**t for claiming that the Stewards were out to get him is just plain disrespectful to the current WDC and F1 ambassador around the world. He didn't have to say that, especially as a steward that was part of handing down the draconian punishment. 

 

I used to be a fan of Salo - not so much now. 

[Jvr]

fed up, on 01 Oct 2020 - 15:28, said:

Saying (on the record) that Lewis is full of s**t for claiming that the Stewards were out to get him is just plain disrespectful to the current WDC and F1 ambassador around the world. He didn't have to say that, especially as a steward that was part of handing down the draconian punishment. 

 

I used to be a fan of Salo - not so much now. 

No, he did not say that.

 

Salo said Lewis was talking s**t, which he was.

Big difference.

EDIT: In the same story he also told he's received multiple death threats while having been a Steward.

Edited by Jvr, 01 October 2020 - 15:47.

[Roadhouse]

fed up, on 01 Oct 2020 - 15:28, said:

Saying (on the record) that Lewis is full of s**t for claiming that the Stewards were out to get him is just plain disrespectful to the current WDC and F1 ambassador around the world. He didn't have to say that, especially as a steward that was part of handing down the draconian punishment. 

 

I used to be a fan of Salo - not so much now. 

 

So him replying to an accusation is disrespectful?

At what point are u allowed to make wild accusations without repercussions? 1 WDC? 2? It's 6 WDC isn't it? 

[Rodaknee]

Jvr, on 01 Oct 2020 - 15:37, said:

EDIT: In the same story he also told he's received multiple death threats while having been a Steward.

Really?  Do the nutters still do that?  Does anyone take any notice of them?

[MikeTekRacing]

Roadhouse, on 01 Oct 2020 - 16:00, said:

So him replying to an accusation is disrespectful?

At what point are u allowed to make wild accusations without repercussions? 1 WDC? 2? It's 6 WDC isn't it? 

when you do a bad job (and Salo did a bad job, as part of a group of stewards that are incompetent) of course you can reply to accusations.

The way you reply to them can be disrespectful 

[Jvr]

MikeTekRacing, on 01 Oct 2020 - 16:27, said:

when you do a bad job (and Salo did a bad job, as part of a group of stewards that are incompetent) of course you can reply to accusations.

The way you reply to them can be disrespectful 

Err.. but sorry, no.

 

What was the "bad job" they did you are referring to?

Lewis did the bad job of making the practise starts at a silly location. Even Merc the team has admitted once they realised where he did them they knew there could be trouble.

 

If they leaked (could still have been somebody on the paddock or FOM as well) then yes, but I believe Lewis did not direct his comments to the leak, rather than the actual punishments.

And those comments Salo called bulls**t, which they were. Even Lewis told the next day he commented too much in the heat of the moment.

Edited by Jvr, 01 October 2020 - 16:46.

[Marklar]

Not saying that Salo's choice of words was right, but from my experience Finns swear *a lot*. In many languages profanities are completely normal, and I think they are one of them.

[fed up]

Marklar, on 01 Oct 2020 - 17:29, said:

Not saying that Salo's choice of words was right, but from my experience Finns swear *a lot*. In many languages profanities are completely normal, and I think they are one of them.

 

Yes, but he wouldn't have used that language against Max, Vettel, or Alonso for example.

 

I often give people where English is not their mother tongue some slack, but he was a steward on the day, so that use of language was highly inappropriate. 

 

In the overall scheme of things Mika Salo is really not that important a personality to be wasting time over and I'm sure Lewis will rise above it.

[jjcale]

Topsu, on 30 Sept 2020 - 01:22, said:

One more clip added to the timeline.

 

15:32 and 16:17

 

https://streamable.com/iybf1k

 

-A few minutes later, for some reason Juusela claims that the stewards are confirming the 4 penalty points, and he seems convinced that Hamilton is going to get banned from the next race, as if the "source" just confirmed it. He then happens to mention how Mika Salo is a steward for the weekend. From this point on until lap 36, they are convinced about Hamilton getting the race ban. Then at 16:17 on lap 36, Juusela seemingly gets the official announcement of Hamilton getting 1+1 penalty points. I assume this is around the moment the penalty points were officially released? After that, Juusela mentions how they have been getting their information from "quite close to the stewards" during the course of the race, and this information is now getting confirmed.

 

So youre telling me that these C U next Tuesdays were actually seriously contemplating banning LH for a race?

[jjcale]

Jvr, on 01 Oct 2020 - 15:37, said:

No, he did not say that.

 

Salo said Lewis was talking s**t, which he was.

Big difference.

EDIT: In the same story he also told he's received multiple death threats while having been a Steward.

 

Hardly surprising ....

[robefc]

fed up, on 01 Oct 2020 - 17:54, said:

Yes, but he wouldn't have used that language against Max, Vettel, or Alonso for example.

What are you basing that on?

[MikeTekRacing]

Jvr, on 01 Oct 2020 - 16:34, said:

Err.. but sorry, no.

 

What was the "bad job" they did you are referring to?

Lewis did the bad job of making the practise starts at a silly location. Even Merc the team has admitted once they realised where he did them they knew there could be trouble.

 

If they leaked (could still have been somebody on the paddock or FOM as well) then yes, but I believe Lewis did not direct his comments to the leak, rather than the actual punishments.

And those comments Salo called bulls**t, which they were. Even Lewis told the next day he commented too much in the heat of the moment.

the stewards did a bad job overall the weekend. Harsh on Hamilton, very lenient (again) on Leclerc for an incident where stewards punished Hamilton in the past. 

So Lewis thinks stewards have a mission to get him. He may be wrong.

An official, a steward, should not use those words describing a competitor when that competitor criticizes them. He can chose to defend himself, but not with those words.

[Squeed]

MikeTekRacing, on 01 Oct 2020 - 20:05, said:

the stewards did a bad job overall the weekend. Harsh on Hamilton, very lenient (again) on Leclerc for an incident where stewards punished Hamilton in the past. 

So Lewis thinks stewards have a mission to get him. He may be wrong.

An official, a steward, should not use those words describing a competitor when that competitor criticizes them. He can chose to defend himself, but not with those words.

In the wake of the engine mode ban, I can sure see why he might think those words.  But in the interest of his teams’ and sponsors’ reputations, it’s best to speak them in private. 

[Huffer]

Rodaknee, on 01 Oct 2020 - 16:24, said:

Really?  Do the nutters still do that?  Does anyone take any notice of them?

 

Yes they do, and...well...no, you never should, but it depends on the type of threat. I've run into this in my old job during the gamergate days where the threat was aimed more at my kids than me. Although I KNOW that people make these threats because they are unable to find the balls to do the actual deed; I had a momentary flash of fear. As a matter of course, I had to report it to my employer who in turn reported it to the police, who took it very seriously given how specific the threat and the details were. 

[Sterzo]

^ Maybe off topic Huffer, but no-one should have to go through what you faced, and all praise to you for handling it that way.

[Huffer]

Sterzo, on 02 Oct 2020 - 10:00, said:

^ Maybe off topic Huffer, but no-one should have to go through what you faced, and all praise to you for handling it that way.

 

Thanks, dude. No...nobody should have to put up with that crap and it makes me angry that people would want to try and make people feel scared in that way. I think Salo is a bit of a tit, but that he received any sort of threats is just plain wrong. 

Edited by Huffer, 02 October 2020 - 12:10.