145 replies to this topic

[r4mses]

When takling about manufacturers in regard to EV racing, I think -- or rather hope -- we can look further then usual suspects. What about the component suppliers themselves? Those who build the engines, batteries, etc. Even more then with current ICE, the "old manufacturers" just buy components and throw them together under a bodywork.

Edited by r4mses, 21 November 2020 - 16:38.

[balage06]

2023 isn't that far away now and still no details about this. I thought with the start of the current DTM season, the teasing will be also shifted into next gear, just to use the worst possible analogy for an electric series.

[Ben1445]

There was this update from October 2021 which this thread appears to have missed: https://www.dailyspo...-presented.html

[Sterzo]

It's bizarre that there's no mention at all on the DTM official site, as far as  can see.

[Ben1445]

There's some news now:

DTM Electric targets 2024 start date, operational prototype in 2023
https://www.autospor...-2023/10327010/

Quote

He explained that ITR is close to finalising specifications to begin build of the prototype ready for testing next year.

“At least for the prototype in 2023 we should be safe,” he said.

“2024 is the planned target, but with electronic stuff at the moment you’re looking for 48 weeks of delivery time, so it depends how many teams we have and how many cars we really can do from a procurement aspect.”

However, ITR is open to a 2025 start that would allow manufacturers currently without electric GT offerings to develop products first, with Resl stressing that “we don’t want to be rushed into something”.

“We have seen everything from, ‘Hey guys, bring this quicker and we’re on’ to, ‘We don’t actually have a car to promote the activity’,” he said.

“If we come in 2025, more manufacturers will have an actual product they want to see, but 2024 would give them a head-start so they can already showcase a car that doesn’t exist [yet].”

I can't help but think the 'Ah well we could do A or we could do B' sort of approach hasn't historically been very successful in launching this kind of thing. It leads to not having a clear vision as to what the product will be, and that inevitably hurts when trying to secure commitments. But perhaps this can buck the trend.

Edited by Ben1445, 26 June 2022 - 19:06.

[juicy sushi]

I think they’re hoping they get told which one by the German brands and can then go back to their traditional thing which they think everyone wants to see.

[Ben1445]

Ha yeah, could well be.

 

ERA Championship is perhaps a good example of taking that kind of approach. They proposed one concept for the championship (FSAE-esqe technology competition), then added another parallel aspect based on feedback (an all out spec series). Neither option gets any level of commitment, then even when the original concept seemingly gets put on ice firm commitments are still sparse. I don't think anyone had a clear view of their vision. 

 

Not being completely sure of what DTM electric is going to be just can't be helpful for similar reasons. 

Edited by Ben1445, 26 June 2022 - 20:29.

[balage06]

Ben1445, on 26 Jun 2022 - 18:36, said:

There's some news now:

DTM Electric targets 2024 start date, operational prototype in 2023
https://www.autospor...-2023/10327010/

I can't help but think the 'Ah well we could do A or we could do B' sort of approach hasn't historically been very successful in launching this kind of thing. It leads to not having a clear vision as to what the product will be, and that inevitably hurts when trying to secure commitments. But perhaps this can buck the trend.

 

To me, it sounds like they needed the electric concept to ensure their partners and manufacturers that they have a vision for the future beyond the current GT3 format, but maybe the actual demand/interest for it is not as high as expected at the moment. So it's more convenient to delay the introduction.

[Ben1445]

I agree on the point that they needed the concept to demonstrate that they actually have a future vision, and to some extent I can be sympathetic towards  delaying the original 2023 plans to 2024 just based on the condition of global supply chains. That's all fine and good. 
 
The concern I might have is that there's a hint of hesitation coming from the top rather than from competitors. From the article, it's clear that they've had positive and negative feedback (“We have seen everything from, ‘Hey guys, bring this quicker and we’re on’ to, ‘We don’t actually have a car to promote the activity’,”) and sounds like they have decided that they would do better to wait it out a bit longer and see if some consensus emerges. The risk vs reward on that is trading off a potentially better pitch in the future with sinking confidence in your ability to deliver on a clear vision. 

 

Contrast with examples like Formula E, Extreme E and MotoE. The approach taken there was more akin to build it and they will come - they said 'this is our vision, we believe in it, you should join us'. They got a couple of teams and/or drivers to make an early commitment and built momentum steadily from there. In many ways they defied expectations of what sort of interest there would be for such a proposition and, regardless of whether we like them individually or not, they essentially delivered on their promises without self-imposed delay. 

 

ITR's approach to DTM Electric is more along the lines of 'yeah so we need to do this but we're not sure what's best yet so...'. What exactly is their vision? What are competitors meant to be signing up for? Is it a fully spec chassis powertrain with design cues, a common chassis with open development in some areas? Do they want official manufacturer teams or strictly private teams? Is it a support series in DTM's shadow or is this meant to eventually replace DTM as we know it? 

 

Not having clear answers to those questions and floating that they sort of plan for 2024 but might delay to 2025 takes the wind out of the sails a little bit. Even a stated delay to 2025 with a clear explain of why which supports their vision would probably be better - it's the washy middle ground that's the concern. 

 

Note that I'm not necessarily predicting total doom and gloom here. It's just an observation of trends we've seen to date on what has worked and what has not... so far. 

Edited by Ben1445, 27 June 2022 - 13:08.

[juicy sushi]

DTM will only do something that the German big 3 approve of and want.  If Mercedes, Audi, and BMW are not interested, they won't do it.  If those manufacturers are saying "we're not ready to do that yet," then DTM will stall until they tell DTM what they want to do, and then it will obey and do that.

[Ben1445]

Perhaps, but they are launching something which, as has previously been announced, is supposed to sit in addition the DTM weekend for the time being rather than replace it outright. That makes it more like a MotoE type series, which got itself off the ground with a spec bike made by Energica (switching to a spec Ducatti next season) and not by waiting for multiple target manufacturers to commit. 

 

They should be able to get this off the ground as a one-make fairly easily, perhaps supported by DTM Electric partner Schaeffler, especially if their big three manufacturers are feeling a little lukewarm about it in the near term. Then at least they'd have proven they can deliver their plans and manufactures might feel better to come into the next phase of the series' development, perhaps by that point even discussing where the series should be in the pecking order. 

 

My idea of a clear roadmap would be, for example, keep the GT3s running as DTM and say that this will remain the case through 2026, during which point what happens from 2027 will depend on a review of the future strategy. Meanwhile you launch DTM Electric in 2024 as a supporting one-make targeted to last three initial seasons. Then you start engagement about whether there's a desire to replace the GT3s with some derivative of DTM Electric or adopt any future evolution of the GT3 rules. Package that up as a plan and go for it - the big three make GT3 cars anyway so they're effectively covered no matter what. 

 

I just feel like their vision and their roadmap isn't very clear or coherent on this. It's sort of like they want to have their cake and eat it when it comes to electrification. 

Edited by Ben1445, 27 June 2022 - 14:08.

[ARTGP]

McMurtry. That is all

[Ben1445]

The DTM Electric prototype was doing demo runs in Spielberg last weekend. 

 

And doing things a little differently: 
 

Quote

The DTM Electric vehicle will feature a special software this weekend that will combine real-time data with a sound profile developed by Schaeffler specifically for this project. This soundtrack has been modeled on an actual electric motor.

As the car speeds up or brakes, the software will adapt the pitch and the volume of the sound already saved in the system.

The sound will then be transmitted via an amplifier to coils in the vehicle which will cause the body to vibrate. It is this vibration that will allow fans to hear the sound of the car, and it means that the Schaeffler won’t have to employ a traditional loudspeaker system.

(https://www.autospor...-ring/10373158/)

and here's what that sounded like: https://streamable.com/vrv4s7

[Silverstone96]

Urgh, time to dig out the early 90’s DTM did reviews I think

[Ben1445]

I mean it’ll still (under current plans) only be a support series upon introduction.

Not that current DTM is anything like 90s DTM

[FLB]

DTM in Talks With ADAC About Potential Series Sale – Sportscar365

[juicy sushi]

So much for the electric future. It makes sense, as local management might help the series achieve a sustainable vision for itself.

[balage06]

So I guess the merger of the two series is inevitable, who would have thought...

[Ben1445]

Interesting developments. Would be curious to know what a sale of DTM would mean and what ADAC would do with it. 

 

Run the DTM single-driver sprint events in parallel with the multi-driver GT Masters format on the same weekends all run by ADAC?

 

Simply merge DTM and GT Masters and have one core GT3 series? 

 

Acquire the DTM name but keep it dormant for a bit whilst plotting a potential future rebirth? 

 

Would ADAC also acquire the DTM Electric project and/or be able to keep it active? 

[TennisUK]

Do crowds turn up to watch gr3 DTM?

And generally, how big were crowds outside the original, incredibly popular Class 1 era? I only really ever watched it 1992-1995 when it was ludicrously popular,

[balage06]

Apparently, either the ADAC takeover happens, or DTM follows the WTCR:
https://sportscar365...ses-operations/

[OvDrone]

[Ben1445]

This is possibly worth a split thread at this point but: 

 

ADAC has now officially acquired the DTM branding rights 

https://sportscar365...m-brand-rights/

[Ben1445]

Official DTM announcement: https://dtm.com/en/news/cockpit-change

[Risil]

What does this mean for the future? No particular skill at reading between the lines needed to see that DTM had a near-death experience during the pandemic.

[Ben1445]

From the Autosport write up: 
https://www.autospor...m-itr/10407242/
 

Quote

With this acquisition, the ADAC aims to reorganise the structure in German motorsport and create synergies with other categories under its umbrella, it said in a statement.

GT Masters, which also runs on the GT3 ruleset like the DTM, is one of the several championships operated by Germany’s premier automobile club.

ADAC said it will offer existing participants in both DTM and GT Masters an opportunity to compete in its championships in 2023, without offering any more details.

A press conference has been scheduled on 8 December in Munich where more information about how the DTM will be run under ADAC will be revealed to the public.

Edited by Ben1445, 02 December 2022 - 14:10.

[Risil]

Aha, create synergies!

 

Feels a bit like "temporary becomes permanent", and DTM sees no immediately viable way to move away from the GT3 ruleset that it believed (told everyone?) was a temporary inconvenience. Too harsh?

[balage06]

The German premium brands' attention is obviously shifted away from electric racing and it would be quite challenging to switch to an electric ruleset without their support/interest.

[Ben1445]

I think it was generally felt that two independently run domestic GT3 categories by ITR and ADAC would be unsustainable.

ITR ended up with GT3s rather unwillingly and without firm financial foundations. If they had any bold vision for how to move past the GT3 stop gap, I am not convinced they would have been able to deliver on it.

Even with DTM Electric, the plan was to run it just as a support category to the headline standard GT3 machinery (seeing as their GT3 Pro idea never got off the ground). I don’t think that helped the situation. How do you get manufacturer interest in a support category to a struggling domestic GT3 series?

Simply put, it just never looked like ITR has the vision or capacity to deliver anything distinguishing, new or future-proof.

And so it goes that ITR ceases operations and ADAC acquires the DTM branding assets. I think ADAC have plenty of options from here, and I guess it won’t be a long wait to see what their short term plans will be now.

Edited by Ben1445, 02 December 2022 - 15:25.

[Ben1445]

balage06, on 02 Dec 2022 - 14:45, said:

The German premium brands' attention is obviously shifted away from electric racing [...]

Not entirely convinced this is conclusion I'd be willing to draw so hastily or with any sense of finality.

 

Edited by Ben1445, 02 December 2022 - 15:24.

[Ben1445]

I somewhat suspect that, at least in the short term, ADAC will run DTM as a single Pro-driver GT3 sprint series in parallel with GT Masters as a the classic GT3 Pro-Am event. They can share events, organisation, teams, competitors, etc. which would clearly an improvement on the current situation. 

 

It remains to be seen, though, if ADAC has any sort of longer term vision independent of what they will inherit from ITR. 

Edited by Ben1445, 02 December 2022 - 15:24.

[juicy sushi]

DTM as single driver sprints vs GT as multi-driver events would make the most sense, and allows the GT4 teams to use their cars the same way.  That being said, the DRM died, and it took  a few years for the DTM to emerge to replace it, and then after the DTM became the ITC and died, it took a few years to be reborn as well.  

 

There is clearly some kind of latent demand for a single-driver sprint series in Germany, using cars that are globally available, but the series management has a long history of ignoring sustainability and leaving a smoking crater of financial ruin.  Perhaps ADAC, by being a domestic organization, can do better on the sustainability front.

[highdownforce]

Quote

ADAC Unveils DTM Plans Following Series Takeover

The DTM series will now sit at the top of the series’ umbrella, retaining the single-driver sprint format for the 2023 series.

Notably, Platinum-rated drivers will not be allowed to compete in GT Masters and can only race in DTM.

https://sportscar365...eries-takeover/

[juicy sushi]

Makes sense, refocusing as German NASCAR.

[HistoryFan]

One series would make sense.

[Ben1445]

In broad summary: 
 
- DTM will continue to be GT3-based, professional driver sprint series now sitting at the top of the ADAC pyramid. 
- ADAC's second tier will be DTM Endurance, formed from the Pro-Am GT Masters (GT3s) and Prototype Cup Germany (LMP3s). 

- Platinum-rated drivers will not be allowed to race in the GT Masters.  

 

Also notable in its absence is any news about DTM Electric.  

Edited by Ben1445, 09 December 2022 - 09:17.

[juicy sushi]

DTM Electric apparently did not get included in the sale, so that's still an ITR thing, should it be a thing.  Perhaps no news is the news.

[ezequiel]

STCC will go full electric next year. I don't see why the Germans couldn't pull something similar through.

[juicy sushi]

That’s a much lower profile series trying a much lower-budget approach, though. The problem for DTM-electric is that they wanted Formula E budgets and support for vapourware.

[Ben1445]

This was Autosport's reporting from Tuesday:
https://www.autospor...c/10408428/amp/
 

Quote

However, Berger said "an additional hurdle has been added to the budgeting" for 2023 as the under-development DTM Electric series "was now also in the focus of the discussions" with sustainability increasingly "a necessary condition for many companies to participate in the DTM".

"The link with this project was the precondition for obtaining the full sponsorship budget," Berger said.

"At the same time, the financing of DTM Electric itself turned out to be more difficult than expected. All in all, this meant that the economic risk for 2023 became too great.

"The focus of the investor talks was DTM Electric, for which we are about to build the prototype. We held several talks with international interested parties.

"Among others, we had already come very far with Varta as a battery partner, in addition to Schaeffler and Mahle. However, we were ultimately turned down there."

And then, a little further in, that piece of info which confirms ADAC have not acquired the DTM Electric project, at least at this stage:

Quote

DTM Electric, he added, "is not part of the transfer of trademark rights" to ADAC.

"Therefore, we will sit down with our partners in the next few weeks to discuss the next steps," he said.

 

I guess that means the fate of the DTM Electric project is in the hands of those discussions between soon-to-cease-operations ITR and their partners on the project, Schaeffler and Mahle. Do they still build the prototype and try and sell that to ADAC as well? Will they decide to cut their losses and feed the knowledge gained from DTM Electric into bidding to supply for other projects? Who knows. Maybe there will be an interesting legacy yet for this project. 

 

I still feel as though pitching DTM Electric as a secondary support series with little communicated promise of it every being anything more than that probably didn't help them in things like finding a willing battery partner or generating manufacturer enthusiasm. It is difficult for a support championship to make a splash beyond a small subset of the headline-series audience. At least not without undermining the headline series, which in DTM's case has been fairly fragile in recent years with the emergency adoption of GT3 regulations. 

 

I guess you could cite that FIM's MotoE as a successful launch of an EV series as a support category, but that had the benefit of being the first major electric series to emerge for motorbike racing and it supports the top level of motorbike racing. In the car-racing world you're immediately competing for OEMs/part-suppliers and audience attention with the likes of established series like Formula E, Extreme E, WRX, NitroRX and ETCR  as well as future pipeline projects like SRO's N-EGT or the FIA's eGT proposals. 

 

At the end of the day, committing to invest financially or technically in DTM Electric should come with confidence and belief in the vision being presented. On this point, is that I do feel as though Berger/ITR saw DTM Electric as a modern business necessity rather than the basis of an exciting future and, subsequently, that their heart wasn't really in it. If that ever came across in discussions it could have contributed to the difficulties being described. But perhaps it is not fair to make this judgement from afar... 

[Ben1445]

Not sure where else to put this but since it's where we most recently discussed the DTM's sale to ADAC and the hope/fate of DTM Electric in the future of the series... 
 
SUPER GT, DTM bosses meet to discuss successor to Class 1 cars
https://www.autospor...-cars/10460326/
 
ADAC look to be making another attempt at this whole Super GT alignment thing  and - once again - hoping to come up with a viable worldwide platform which can be used in DTM, Super GT, IMSA, etc. 
 

Quote

While the automotive industry continues to invest billions in electric cars every year, Voss expects combustion engines to continue to play a leading role in motorsport, but with measures to reduce carbon emissions.

SUPER GT has already moved to carbon neutral fuel in 2023, with ETS Racing Fuels supplying 30,000 litres of biomass-derived fuel for the current season.

“[SUPER GT] approached us, and they said, 'We are also a manufacturer-oriented series, where Honda, Nissan and Toyota race against each other'," explained Voss.

"There, too, the manufacturers are going in the direction of sustainability and saying: we have to become greener. And not just doing something for show; we want to be at the forefront of technology.

“That is the opportunity for motorsport. And there we all have the same problems - the Americans, the Japanese, the French and us."

[Ben1445]

Edited by Ben1445, 25 April 2023 - 10:32.

[highdownforce]

Recreate a GT1 class aligned with FIA/ACO Hypercar rules existing subset for "road based vehicles".

Stonks!

[juicy sushi]

Single driver sprint racing for LMDh…

[ARTGP]

highdownforce, on 25 Apr 2023 - 14:13, said:

Recreate a GT1 class aligned with FIA/ACO Hypercar rules existing subset for "road based vehicles".

Stonks!

 

I sure hope so, but I can't imagine there's an appetite for it. A lot of these manufacturers just want to have a GT3 car and be done with it.  

Edited by ARTGP, 25 April 2023 - 16:09.

[LolaB0860]

There was a Ratel interview some years ago where he basically said he doesn't want to use GT1 moniker for anything current, just in case they decide to bring a class deserving that title back some day. Which they sadly probably never will.

 

I agree that in terms of business and selling customers cars, the best way forward would be the ability to race these things in many series - which is something I still blame the failings for the demise of LMP1 in the long run. However that opens up another can of worms, namely making it just another BoP series like GT3, TCR, LMDH etc. And then the uniqueness starts fading away. At least with the current GT500, even though they have specness underneath with those Class 1 regulations - which the old JAF GT500 regs did not - they still have some individual unique technology in them. Plus actual tyre war, which surely would not be allowed to happen outside of Japan anywhere sadly. Also if they were to implement these kind of cars to multiple series, you can be damn sure that they wouldn't be as fast as GT500 are, which is basically the old non-neutered nonhybrid LMP1 level

Edited by LolaB0860, 25 April 2023 - 21:44.