119 replies to this topic

[owenmahamilton]

I cannot see anything coming of this as there is too much money involved.

 

https://www.bbc.co.u...rmula1/64794237

[Red5ive]

Meanwhile - they also quite like - arms deals, pay-offs to Royalty in brown paper bags, endless freebies and trade fairs and all expenses paid "fact finding" visits to those same countries......

[ANF]

A news conference held at the Houses of Parliament in London on Tuesday highlighted the testimony of current and former political prisoners from Bahrain.

Families of death-row inmates at imminent risk of execution have written to F1 drivers to plead with them to intervene.

Ali Al-Hajee, interned at Jau Prison in Bahrain, is quoted by Bird as saying: "It is very unfortunate that Formula 1, as well as many international events that are held in Bahrain, are being employed as a cover-up for curbing freedom of speech and to whitewash human rights abuses.

"As a prisoner of conscience I am serving a 10-year prison sentence since May 2013, for peacefully protesting in the capital, Manama. I was subjected to harsh torture, both physical and mental. My confession under duress was the basis for the 10-year jail sentence."

[LolaB0860]

Nothing will happen. It should, but won't

It would take something absurd like missile strike or proof of mass slave labor to... oh wait

Edited by LolaB0860, 28 February 2023 - 17:37.

[PayasYouRace]

Sadly, nobody in F1 can speak on these things because they FIA said they can't.

[Zmeej]

It would certainly be good if some correctives were entertained, discussed, and applied.

 

Mr Scriven et alia (UK parliamentarians), and Sayed Alwadaei (director of advocacy at the Bahrain Institute of Rights and Democracy, aka BIRD), should be commended and supported.

 

Thanks for the link, owenmahamilton.

 

 

 

PayasYouRace

 

IMHO, as many people in and out of F1 as possible should speak about these things. Those in F1 should state that they are doing so in direct defiance of the measure that is the subject of this thread:

"FIA bans drivers from political or personal statements at races without approval"

https://forums.autos...thout-approval/

(just bumped).

Edited by Zmeej, 28 February 2023 - 20:40.

[Bloggsworth]

Talk is cheap...

[azza200]

F1 should stick to being a "sport" 

[Zmeej]

Talk is cheap...

 

Boycotts (prompted by talk) and/or reviews of race hosting rights (prompted by and consisting of talk) can be very expensive.

Edited by Zmeej, 28 February 2023 - 20:13.

[Beri]

F1 is involved in sportswashing since I dont know how many decades. So to target F1 now, is to grab headlines as F1 is about to start a new season. And within 2 weeks this voice will have moved to the background and we will race happily ever after in Saudi Arabia.

[Zmeej]

Or, to target F1 now is to set in motion something that should have been set in motion prior to the recent Olympiad.

[William Hunt]

Just about every major sport holds major events in those countries: from golf to tennis to soccer (World Cup in Qatar) to cycling. Not that I approve it (sportswashing). On the other hand: once you start this you end up in a street with no end (they shouldn't have had events in Turkey under Erdogan then, in the US under Trump, in Brazil under Bolsonaro, in China, in Israël, in Hungary etc and what if Le Pen wins the French elections next time?....)

Edited by William Hunt, 28 February 2023 - 20:24.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

Just about every major sport holds major events in those countries: from golf to tennis to soccer (World Cup in Qatar) to cycling. Not that I approve it (sportswashing). On the other hand: once you start this you end up in a street with no end (they shouldn't have had events in Turkey under Erdogan then, in the US under Trump, in Brazil under Bolsonaro, in China, in Israël, in Hungary etc and what if Le Pen wins the French elections next time?....)

Exactly, this is much ado about nothing. It would be hypocritical to point the finger about these human rights breaches and those countries that are being accused having their GPs stripped from them when these same accusers accept BILLIONS of £/$ from these nations in investment. Furthermore, the moral high ground that the West tries to take everytime is rather annoying now, it’s almost as if turning Libya for example into a cesspool of degeneracy wasn’t their doing lol, not to mention what’s going on in Yemen still.

Edited by STRFerrari4Ever, 28 February 2023 - 20:32.

[Zmeej]

once you start this you end up in a street with no end 

 

Once you "start," you realize that you're not "starting" anything, but actually continuing a tradition of civic responsibility.

 

Also, you're merely applying principle to an area in which it has too often been ignored.

 

[1] this is much ado about nothing.

 

[2] It would be hypocritical to point the finger about these human rights breaches

 

 

Re 1 - False.

 

Re 2 - Crap.

 

Edited by Zmeej, 28 February 2023 - 20:57.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

Once you "start," you realize that you're not "starting" anything, but actually continuing a tradition.

Also, you're merely applying principle to an area in which has too often been ignored.


Re 1 - False.

Re 2 - Crap.

Lol it is much ado about nothing because ultimately the money talks and this won’t force the heads of F1 to change course. Sportswashing is taking place across every major sport, if they wanted to make a stand they should’ve acted from the very beginning to stop those countries getting their foot in the door and building infrastructures that allow them to host these events.

Human rights abuses are perpetrated by the west too lol, usually by proxy or far from their borders, which is why I made that comment.

[Zmeej]

Please explain why you are inclined to laugh out loud when posting the following:

Human rights abuses are perpetrated by the west too

 

Apart from that....

 

[1] Sportswashing is taking place across every major sport,

[2] if they wanted to make a stand they should’ve acted from the very beginning to stop those countries getting their foot in the door and building infrastructures that allow them to host these events.

 

Re 1 - To varying degrees. For example, in ice hockey, the NHL is permitting a notorious and irresponsible supporter of Vladolf Putler and his genocidal war on Ukraine to continue playing in the league. IMHO, he should have been hit with a mounting series of suspensions until he repudiated it. There have also been suggestions that teams not play the Washington Capitals, the outfit for whom this asshole plays, if he is on that evening's roster. All that said, this has Sweet Fuc8k All to do with the fact that the condemnation of human rights abuses at various kinds of sports events and protests against the actions of the hosting country's governments have gone on since the turn of the 20th century.

 

Re 2 - Crap, again.

Also, where were you when this stuff was being built? Laffing it up somewhere?

[STRFerrari4Ever]

Please explain why you are inclined to laugh out loud when posting the following:

Apart from that....


Re 1 - To varying degrees. For example, in ice hockey, the NHL is permitting a notorious and irresponsible supporter of Vladolf Putler and his genocidal war on Ukraine to continue playing in the league. IMHO, he should have been hit with a mounting series of suspensions until he repudiated it. There have also been suggestions that teams not play the Washington Capitals, the outfit for whom this asshole plays, if he is on that evening's roster. All that said, this has Sweet Fuc8k All to do with the fact that the condemnation of human rights abuses at various kinds of sports events and protests against the actions of the hosting country's governments have gone on since the turn of the 20th century.

Re 2 - Crap, again.
Also, where were you when this stuff was being built? Laffing it up somewhere?

I can counter that example you cited of the NHL with the NBA that continues to ignore China’s genocide against Uyghur Muslims to the point that Enes Kanter, a former player left the league because when he’d raise the issue with officials they’d turn a blind eye because of the economic ties they already had with the Chinese. All this in the face of the NBA pushing various social justice messages and propaganda to the mainstream. If the money is substantial enough, organisations in sport turn a blind eye to the deplorable actions perpetrated by various countries.

How did you know? Tell me more about myself 🥱

[Sterzo]

I cannot see anything coming of this as there is too much money involved.

 

https://www.bbc.co.u...rmula1/64794237

A very badly written article, headlined as "MPs want F1 to look into links between races and human rights violations."  In fact, they quote one MP from a minority party talking about one issue in one country: "wants F1 to urge Bahrain to release political prisoners and death-row inmates."

[loki]

Sadly, nobody in F1 can speak on these things because they FIA said they can't.

Only during on site official race weekend events.  Nothing stopping anyone from using social media to advocate or holding press events off site.

 

There is no jurisdiction or enforcement authority for the MPs to institute any sort of policy.  It’s a press play.

[loki]

Please explain why you are inclined to laugh out loud when posting the following:

 

 

 

Apart from that....

 

 

 

 

Re 1 - To varying degrees. For example, in ice hockey, the NHL is permitting a notorious and irresponsible supporter of Vladolf Putler and his genocidal war on Ukraine to continue playing in the league. IMHO, he should have been hit with a mounting series of suspensions until he repudiated it. There have also been suggestions that teams not play the Washington Capitals, the outfit for whom this asshole plays, if he is on that evening's roster. All that said, this has Sweet Fuc8k All to do with the fact that the condemnation of human rights abuses at various kinds of sports events and protests against the actions of the hosting country's governments have gone on since the turn of the 20th century.

As reprehensible as that is it’s not enforceable. As well teams are required to play every game.  Not only would they forfeit every game giving the Capitals a perfect record they would run afoul of NHL regs.  The best thing we can do is keep highlighting his views and perhaps the Capitals will relent. 

[Zmeej]

[1] I can counter that example you cited of the NHL with the NBA that continues to ignore China’s genocide against Uyghur Muslims to the point that Enes Kanter, a former player left the league because when he’d raise the issue with officials they’d turn a blind eye because of the economic ties they already had with the Chinese. All this in the face of the NBA pushing various social justice messages and propaganda to the mainstream. If the money is substantial enough, organisations in sport turn a blind eye to the deplorable actions perpetrated by various countries.

[2] How did you know? Tell me more about myself

 

Re 1 - That’s not a counter, that’s additional support for my argument.

 

Re 2 - Did not suggest anything that “I know.” Asked you a question. If you’d like, you can answer it. FWIW, don’t count the reply you provided to be an answer to the question, but a deflection of the question.

 

Speaking of which, IMHO it would be most instructive if you were to answer my question as to why the fact you adduced (quite correctly), to wit, that human rights abuses have been committed by the West, both internally and abroad, was something that prompted you to “laugh out loud.”

 

Don’t find it funny at all, myself. As such, I’m genuinely curious as to why you do.

Edited by Zmeej, 01 March 2023 - 05:40.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

Re 1 - That’s not a counter, that’s additional support for my argument.

Re 2 - Did not suggest anything that “I know.” Asked you a question. If you’d like, you can answer it. FWIW, don’t count the reply you provided to be an answer to the question, but a deflection of the question.

Speaking of which, IMHO it would be most instructive if you were to answer my question as to why the fact you adduced (quite correctly), to wit, that human rights abuses have been committed by the West, both internally and abroad, was something that prompted you to “laugh out loud.”

Don’t find it funny at all, myself. As such, I’m genuinely curious as to why you do.

Not really because as frequent or infrequent as these issues are raised or brought to light like the article above, the reality is that none of the major stakeholders in the majority of global sports are going to change where they participate and who they receive funding from. Until they take a stand and stop then we can have a meaningful dialogue about it but until then it’s business as usual. It’s almost like the situation with electric vehicles and the terrible suffering of children and people in the DRC mining the Cobalt and other materials necessary for electric vehicles but that isn’t cited as a concern or looked into by our governments and leaders because it doesn’t affect them and they see the profits to be made by the manufacturing and selling of said vehicles. Not to mention the added bonus of good PR that says “Hey, look, we’re saving the planet”.

Using lol doesn’t always indicate that a person is indeed laughing out loud, it’s the internet, don’t take everything so literal and personal.

Edited by STRFerrari4Ever, 01 March 2023 - 09:01.

[Zmeej]

[1] Not really because as frequent or infrequent as these issues are raised or brought to light like the article above, the reality is that none of the major stakeholders in the majority of global sports are going to change where they participate and who they receive funding from. Until they take a stand and stop then we can have a meaningful dialogue about it but until then it’s business as usual.

 

[2] It’s almost like the situation with electric vehicles and the terrible suffering of children and people in the DRC mining the Cobalt and other materials necessary for electric vehicles but that isn’t cited as a concern or looked into by our governments and leaders because it doesn’t affect them and they see the profits to be made by the manufacturing and selling of said vehicles.

 

[3] Not to mention the added bonus of good PR that says “Hey, look, we’re saving the planet”.

[4] Using lol doesn’t always indicate that a person is indeed laughing out loud, it’s the internet,

 

[5] don’t take everything so literal and personal.

 

Re 1 - False. There have been major re-arrangements in the “major stakeholdery” of football in the UK: exit RussFedoids. There is nothing inherent in the system that dictates that the influence of Middle Easterners can’t also be restricted to their countries of origin. Re F1, there is nothing that dictates that there will always be races held there, or need to be.

 

Re 2 - You raise an important area of concern. However, it is in no way similar.

 

Re 3 - Not to mention the pressing concern of the need to reduce carbon emissions.

 

Re 4 - Maybe not in your corner of the Internet. In mine, emoticons mean what they mean, kinda like words.

 

Re 5 - Strongly suggest that you not tell me what to do, including how to take things.

Edited by Zmeej, 01 March 2023 - 17:37.

[Nathan]

F1 is involved in sportswashing since I dont know how many decades. So to target F1 now, is to grab headlines as F1 is about to start a new season. And within 2 weeks this voice will have moved to the background and we will race happily ever after in Saudi Arabia.

 

 

Just for fun, name one sports event that made the world forget.  The World Cup just shone the brightest light yet on what's going on within Qatar.

[pdac]

Just for fun, name one sports event that made the world forget.  The World Cup just shone the brightest light yet on what's going on within Qatar.

 

I think if anyone came up with something, it would be an amateur sporting event. Professional sport runs after money and sportswashing is about passing large sums of money to the sports involved. If any professional sports are not involved with countries of dubious reputations it's because they haven't gotten around to it yet.

[LolaB0860]

https://www.speedcaf...-rights-stance/

 

Speaking with The Guardian, Domenicali didn’t shy away from the awkward truth but also explained the rationale behind F1’s presence in those locations.
“I love taking these challenges on because from a personal perspective I can try to shape what I think is right,” he said. “To open up the discussion on issues in these places. I take pride in it. I know it is easy to criticise me but I have no fear because with soft power, I believe in the right context, in the right way, I can achieve results.”

 

...

 

Riiiight and also in the article at the same time he is basically saying that if someone wants to pay them the same (or more) than these oil countries, they're happy to take the money to run there instead, or on rotation with these countries.

 

Well good to have such strong and clear stance on this...

Edited by LolaB0860, 01 March 2023 - 19:09.

[djparky]

given that the ruling Tory party is corrupt to the nth degree they have no moral high ground to take with F1.

how far do you take this- pretty much everywhere F1 goes has some shakey history...but there are places F1 goes now which make me wince

[jjcale]

the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Democracy and Human Rights in the Gulf .... is just an informal group of MPs and Lords .... its not a formal C'tee.... its got no power beyond being able to make some noise. It cant hold hearings, call witnesses etc ... its basically a glorified drinking club.

 

... but good on them anyway. I hope they are serious and this is not some stunt.

 

 

 

As Ive pointed out in another thread ..... its not the role of the FIA to be doing this .... but if some UK politicians want to take this on ... that's fine with me.

 

 

I hope they get somewhere with this .... and I hope they look at "Human Rights" in the broadest sense and not just some sectional interests. 

 

They need to start with the right to vote, Rule of Law, Privacy, Assembly, Expression etc .... the really big things. 

 

And if they still have time to look at sectional issues, then fine ... but for the love of god, please dont make sectional issues the focus .... it will not get anywhere.... in fact that will end up buttressing the repressive regimes in the Gulf. 

Edited by jjcale, 01 March 2023 - 23:01.

[Showty]

This from Domenicali:

“I love taking these challenges on because from a personal perspective I can try to shape what I think is right,” he said. “To open up the discussion on issues in these places. I take pride in it"

And this from the FIA:

"A new Article 12.2.1.n states that drivers will be deemed to have committed a breach of the rules if they show "the general making and display of political, religious and personal statements or comments notably in violation of the general principle of neutrality promoted by the FIA under its Statutes, unless previously approved in writing by the FIA for International Competitions, or by the relevant ASN for National Competitions within their jurisdiction"

I mean, come on.

Edited by Showty, 01 March 2023 - 21:24.

[pdac]

This from Domenicali:

“I love taking these challenges on because from a personal perspective I can try to shape what I think is right,” he said. “To open up the discussion on issues in these places. I take pride in it"

And this from the FIA:

"A new Article 12.2.1.n states that drivers will be deemed to have committed a breach of the rules if they show "the general making and display of political, religious and personal statements or comments notably in violation of the general principle of neutrality promoted by the FIA under its Statutes, unless previously approved in writing by the FIA for International Competitions, or by the relevant ASN for National Competitions within their jurisdiction"

I mean, come on.

 

The bolded bit is the bit everyone misses. There's not a total ban - they just have to get approval first. What will be more telling is if permission is requested and refused. Only in that situation, we can ask why and assess the FIA's true intent.

[LolaB0860]

The bolded bit is the bit everyone misses. There's not a total ban - they just have to get approval first. What will be more telling is if permission is requested and refused. Only in that situation, we can ask why and assess the FIA's true intent.

 

The chances of anyone actually bothering to ask for permissions and/or the approvals/rejections being made public are about as likely as Sauber winning the constructors championship this season

[jcbc3]

The bolded bit is the bit everyone misses. There's not a total ban - they just have to get approval first. What will be more telling is if permission is requested and refused. Only in that situation, we can ask why and assess the FIA's true intent.

 

Part of being a free man is not to have to ask permission to state his opinions.

[jjcale]

Part of being a free man is not to have to ask permission to state his opinions.

 

Man is born free ... but everywhere he is in chains

 

 

Who said that?

[uzsjgb]

Formula 1 is a global sport. For such a measure to work it must be applied globally and not focused solely on one or two countries. Maybe the MP could use the British GP to shine a light on the UK's shortcomings. That would be a good starting point. With three races the US would be the next logical target. I wonder what would happen in don't say gay, anti-abortion, book burning and death penalty Florida if Formula 1 actively steps up for human rights.

 

But alas, I fear this is not actually about human rights, but about targeting certain countries. I don't trust people who are only interested in human rights in far, far away Muslim countries.

[Red5ive]

given that the ruling Tory party is corrupt to the nth degree they have no moral high ground to take with F1.

how far do you take this- pretty much everywhere F1 goes has some shakey history...but there are places F1 goes now which make me wince

 

 

I get your point however - Its a cross -party group - that includes Corbyn and his crony MacDonald, amongst others.......

 

In the crazy world of Corbyns politics Bahrain = bad,  HAMAS = good.

Edited by Red5ive, 02 March 2023 - 13:08.

[jjcale]

I get your point however - Its a cross -party group - that includes Corbyn and his crony MacDonald, amongst others.......

 

In the crazy world of Corbyns politics Bahrain = bad,  HAMAS = good.

 

Hamas has won elections ... Bahrain is an absolute monarchy where the rulers are despised by the vast majority of their subjects.

 

It is possible to draw rational distinctions.

 

Now that you mention that Corbyn is part of this group, it has a bit more credibility for me. .... upgrades it from "probably a bunch of likely grifters and intel agency assets" to "probably a bunch of well meaning folks who are likely to end up being completely ineffective by being too idealistic and having no political skills beyond being able to give a good speech".  

Edited by jjcale, 02 March 2023 - 13:38.

[pdac]

Part of being a free man is not to have to ask permission to state his opinions.

 

Who said they were free?

 

(indeed, is anyone free?)

[taran]

Just for fun, name one sports event that made the world forget.  The World Cup just shone the brightest light yet on what's going on within Qatar.

 

Yes and it shows exactly what that's worth. Nothing!

 

We have all heard for years that the workers building the stadiums were treated horribly and yet every team showed up to play.

 

The players that made a meaningless gesture of 'support' played poorly and were ridiculed as a result.

Protest bands were banned and the teams went along with it.

The teams that just focused on their sport performed well.

 

Qatar was perhaps embarrassed in social media but for the rest it was business as usual. And the fact that is has resources the world wants now that Russia is unfashionable, means nobody cares to make waves....

[Zmeej]

“now that Russia is unfashionable”

 

You’re a piece of work.

[taran]

“now that Russia is unfashionable”

 

You’re a piece of work.

Now I am supporting Putin?

 

Man, you really need to get a life. Trolling on an internet forum should be beneath you...

[jjcale]

Now I am supporting Putin?

 

Man, you really need to get a life. Trolling on an internet forum should be beneath you...

 

What's wrong with supporting Putin? ... the govts of the majority of the people of the world are in support - or, at minimum, are officially neutral (cause they dont need the hassle of admitting they are in support ... I am looking at you India, China, Brazil, Indonesia, Nigeria, etc all countries with huge populations)

 

Just because the west is unanimous does not mean that the rest of the world feels the same way .... Ive never seen an issue break down like this along such clear ethnic and geographical lines before. .... even back in the cold war days you had communists in every continent and capitalists in every continent. ... this one is literally the west (including Japan South Korea and the Antipodes) on one side and everybody else pretending to be "neutral" on the other.

 

Tell you what ... you are right to say you dont support - its too much hassle - western people are just going to hysterically attack you ... just say your neutral (or even condemn the "unprovoked attack" on a "democratic country" - but then increase trade flows) ....  that's what most of the world is doing - basically just keeping calm and carrying on.... so yeah, youre doing the right thing. 

Edited by jjcale, 02 March 2023 - 17:05.

[YoungGun]

As reprehensible as that is it’s not enforceable. As well teams are required to play every game.  Not only would they forfeit every game giving the Capitals a perfect record they would run afoul of NHL regs.  The best thing we can do is keep highlighting his views and perhaps the Capitals will relent. 

 

The NHL should have set the policy that no Russian player will be permitted to play. Unfortunately they opted to allow them to play, wrongly in my opinion. One certainly can understand the outrage at Ove, being that he is among the best to play the game arguably.

Edited by YoungGun, 02 March 2023 - 17:13.

[Zmeej]

[1] Now I am supporting Putin?

 

[2] Man, you really need to get a life.

 

[3] Trolling on an internet forum should be beneath you...

 

Re 1 - That's not what I said, is it?

 

Re 2 - Have a life. Don't have an opinion about yours. You should keep yours about mine to yourself.

 

Re 3 - I'm confident that I've never trolled anywhere. Happily, your posts hereabouts are just shy of trolling, as opposed to, say, the Kremlin duck's. However, it's clear that the direct and adversarial way that I've responded to your posts has upset you. Speaking of Internet forums, that's among the many phenomena that occur on them, including here.

[Slartibartfast]

Man is born free ... but everywhere he is in chains


Who said that?

I don’t think he meant the latter part to signify approval. Do you?

[Slartibartfast]

What's wrong with supporting Putin? ... the govts of the majority of the people of the world are in support - or, at minimum, are officially neutral (cause they dont need the hassle of admitting they are in support ... I am looking at you India, China, Brazil, Indonesia, Nigeria, etc all countries with huge populations)

Just because the west is unanimous does not mean that the rest of the world feels the same way .... Ive never seen an issue break down like this along such clear ethnic and geographical lines before. .... even back in the cold war days you had communists in every continent and capitalists in every continent. ... this one is literally the west (including Japan South Korea and the Antipodes) on one side and everybody else pretending to be "neutral" on the other.

UN voting records disagree.

[Claudius]

What's wrong with supporting Putin? ... the govts of the majority of the people of the world are in support - or, at minimum, are officially neutral (cause they dont need the hassle of admitting they are in support ... I am looking at you India, China, Brazil, Indonesia, Nigeria, etc all countries with huge populations)

Just because the west is unanimous does not mean that the rest of the world feels the same way .... Ive never seen an issue break down like this along such clear ethnic and geographical lines before. .... even back in the cold war days you had communists in every continent and capitalists in every continent. ... this one is literally the west (including Japan South Korea and the Antipodes) on one side and everybody else pretending to be "neutral" on the other.

Tell you what ... you are right to say you dont support - its too much hassle - western people are just going to hysterically attack you ... just say your neutral (or even condemn the "unprovoked attack" on a "democratic country" - but then increase trade flows) .... that's what most of the world is doing - basically just keeping calm and carrying on.... so yeah, youre doing the right thing.

Yeah, who doesn’t support a bloodthirsty dictator. As long as he is against US.


I wish I didn’t see comments like this in RC. If I wanted to engage with QAnon people, I would choose 8chan or smth like that. Didn’t think I would find it here.

[CoolBreeze]

LMAO UK MPs??

 

Fix their own damn country's racism issues first then we all talk. 

[Zmeej]

Nope.

 

Walk and chew gum at the same time.

[BRG]

LMAO UK MPs??

 

Fix their own damn country's racism issues first then we all talk. 

And in one leap, he discounted every elected and unelected politician in the entire world.  Well done!

[jjcale]

Yeah, who doesn’t support a bloodthirsty dictator. As long as he is against US.


I wish I didn’t see comments like this in RC. If I wanted to engage with QAnon people, I would choose 8chan or smth like that. Didn’t think I would find it here.

 

You do not have any right or legitimate expectation to not see views that you do not agree with. .... in fact I go further and say that you should welcome such views as a sign of a healthy intellectual ecosystem.

 

And also - you should note, the view I expressed is one that is espoused by probably the majority of people around the globe.... so its not even something out of bounds of decency or reason.

 

Around the world possibly the view you expressed in opposition to mine could find a similar response as the censorious one that you gave to me   - and you would not like that ... and you would then be right to complain that you have a right to free expression and freedom of conscience .....  just like everyone else. 

 

And I am sure that you would also support the right to free expression and freedom of conscience for people in the Gulf to say whatever they wish - even if you dont agree with them .... right?

 

I dont agree with the first line of your post... but lets not derail the thread by pointing out the death toll of the last six presidents of the USA and asking, who are the real blood thirsty ones? its probably best not to point out that GW Bush by himself is responsible for at least 1m deaths .... lets not get side-tracked.