Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

2025 WEC / Le Mans silly-season


  • Please log in to reply
114 replies to this topic

#1 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,906 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 22 June 2024 - 07:28

It's time to sum up some WEC / Le Mans silly-season rumours for the Hypercar topclass.

 

=> Jota will run Cadillac

=> Rumoured Cadillac drivers are: Alex Lynn, Earl Bamber, Antonio Felix da Costa, Will Stevens, Callum Ilott, Norman Nato

=> Proton could expand to 2 customer cars from Porsche

=> Ferrari wants to have a 3 rd satellite car



Advertisement

#2 Stoffel

Stoffel
  • Member

  • 92 posts
  • Joined: May 24

Posted 22 June 2024 - 07:30

Will there even be room on the grid for 2 Proton Porsches? 



#3 FLB

FLB
  • Member

  • 31,818 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 22 June 2024 - 11:06

It's behind a paywall, but Endurance Info says Hyundai is coming in 2026: https://www.enduranc...urance-des-2026 (en francais)


Edited by FLB, 22 June 2024 - 11:07.


#4 ArnageWRC

ArnageWRC
  • Member

  • 2,178 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 22 June 2024 - 14:10

It's behind a paywall, but Endurance Info says Hyundai is coming in 2026: https://www.enduranc...urance-des-2026 (en francais)

 

Can't say I blame them; got to be better than their current WRC programme. New WRC regs for 2027 won't be enough for what is a 'dead duck' series. The WEC/ IMSA is where its at.



#5 SilverArrow31

SilverArrow31
  • Member

  • 5,436 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 22 June 2024 - 14:23

I could see Bamber and Lynn moving back to America if there are two WTR and one Whelen Caddy in IMSA next year. I'd quite like them to stick to the WEC though.

I also want Risi to run a Ferrari in America that could then come to Le Mans. And I still want a Pescarolo Peugeot.

Could JOTA go to Daytona?

Edited by SilverArrow31, 22 June 2024 - 14:29.


#6 juicy sushi

juicy sushi
  • Member

  • 6,958 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 22 June 2024 - 15:18

So, the rumour mill was that 2 new brands were looking at LMDh. McLaren apparently are one, but not until 2027, with Hyundai being rumoured as well. But another current WEC brand were looking at adding a car in IMSA as well. And there are more teams looking for programs than available cars at the moment…

#7 FLB

FLB
  • Member

  • 31,818 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 22 June 2024 - 15:24

And there are more teams looking for programs than available cars at the moment…

Porsche is pissed off there might not be any more room for their cars... that they were unwilling to sell a year ago when there *was* room:

 

https://sportscar365...-customer-cars/



#8 juicy sushi

juicy sushi
  • Member

  • 6,958 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 22 June 2024 - 15:31

In fairness, I can understand how Porsche, 12 months ago, might have wanted to take a pause. If I were WEC, I’d be moving heaven and earth to make space for more 963s. Especially since no one else wants to do that.

#9 Secretariat

Secretariat
  • Member

  • 1,230 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 22 June 2024 - 15:40

Porsche is pissed off there might not be any more room for their cars... that they were unwilling to sell a year ago when there *was* room:

 

https://sportscar365...-customer-cars/

Appears to be one of the downsides of the 2 car rule. It would seem plausible some manufacturers would gladly opt to run a single car, and provide customer cars and supports to race teams that want to participate.



#10 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 16,771 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 22 June 2024 - 15:58

Appears to be one of the downsides of the 2 car rule. It would seem plausible some manufacturers would gladly opt to run a single car, and provide customer cars and supports to race teams that want to participate.

 

But can't they do that? I mean, can't e.g Lambo run one "factory"-car, and then have one customer-car? Or do they need to have two "factory"-cars?

 

It also sounds like there should be more manufacturers than Porsche selling cars, and adding private LMH/LMDh cars to ELMS.



#11 juicy sushi

juicy sushi
  • Member

  • 6,958 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 22 June 2024 - 17:52

No one else wants to do the work, since they only conceived of the cars as bespoke. I think it might lead to the end of LMP2 in IMSA since I imagine some of those teams would be very eager to gets 963s if they could.

#12 TennisUK

TennisUK
  • Member

  • 22,420 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 22 June 2024 - 18:08

I’d like LMP2 to end at Le Mans, too.

What do we reckon the budget to run a 963 for a year of WEC is? And what do we reckon it might be to run a year of ELMS - and how would that compare to a year of LMP2 in ELMS?

#13 juicy sushi

juicy sushi
  • Member

  • 6,958 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 22 June 2024 - 18:11

I’ve seen the annual requirement said to be $8-10 million a year, with purchase price of the car itself being $2.5m, but don’t know for sure.

#14 TennisUK

TennisUK
  • Member

  • 22,420 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 22 June 2024 - 19:54

Ouch. That is quite a lot.

Do Proton and Jota actually own the cars then or do they lease them? That’s a lot of capital, particularly given how much of each car is basically made up of consumables.

#15 FLB

FLB
  • Member

  • 31,818 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 22 June 2024 - 20:00

Ouch. That is quite a lot.

Do Proton and Jota actually own the cars then or do they lease them? That’s a lot of capital, particularly given how much of each car is basically made up of consumables.

Leased, AFAIK. It's part of the 963's business model... which Porsche can't realize anymore because there aren't enough spaces left, at least in the FIA WEC.



#16 juicy sushi

juicy sushi
  • Member

  • 6,958 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 22 June 2024 - 20:16

Leased, AFAIK. It's part of the 963's business model... which Porsche can't realize anymore because there aren't enough spaces left, at least in the FIA WEC.

As I said earlier, the only probable solution is choking the LMP2 grids in IMSA and ALMS for space.

#17 Dan333SP

Dan333SP
  • Member

  • 4,792 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 22 June 2024 - 20:22

They can create a stand alone 963 cup for wealthy amateurs! Imagine the carnage

#18 juicy sushi

juicy sushi
  • Member

  • 6,958 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 22 June 2024 - 20:23

I mean, that is a good description of the 2034 Porsche Reunion event.

#19 FLB

FLB
  • Member

  • 31,818 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 22 June 2024 - 20:24

They can create a stand alone 963 cup for wealthy amateurs! Imagine the carnage

You mean resurrect the ADAC Super Cup?  :p   ;)



Advertisement

#20 Secretariat

Secretariat
  • Member

  • 1,230 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 23 June 2024 - 09:34

But can't they do that? I mean, can't e.g Lambo run one "factory"-car, and then have one customer-car? Or do they need to have two "factory"-cars?

 

It also sounds like there should be more manufacturers than Porsche selling cars, and adding private LMH/LMDh cars to ELMS.

It is a good question regarding the distinction. I have understood it to mean 2 cars/per team...something like F1, which might be my misunderstanding. The things I have read regarding that upcoming rule do not make it clear. Perhaps there is something out there that does clarify it. 



#21 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,906 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 23 June 2024 - 14:29

Will there even be room on the grid for 2 Proton Porsches? 

that's the question.

 

I can't understand why manufactures have to enter 2 cars. Why? The grid is full. It's not necessary...

 

So I think there will not be more costumer cars in the next years...



#22 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,906 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 23 June 2024 - 14:29

It's behind a paywall, but Endurance Info says Hyundai is coming in 2026: https://www.enduranc...urance-des-2026 (en francais)

 

I rather would like to see them in IndyCar...

 

But good news for Hypercars



#23 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,906 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 23 June 2024 - 14:31

I could see Bamber and Lynn moving back to America if there are two WTR and one Whelen Caddy in IMSA next year. I'd quite like them to stick to the WEC though.

I also want Risi to run a Ferrari in America that could then come to Le Mans. And I still want a Pescarolo Peugeot.

Could JOTA go to Daytona?

I don't think with current rules we'll see a Pescarolo Peugeot. If it really was a serious bid, it now has 0 chances after manufactures have to run 2 cars...



#24 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,906 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 23 June 2024 - 14:32

So, the rumour mill was that 2 new brands were looking at LMDh. McLaren apparently are one, but not until 2027, with Hyundai being rumoured as well. But another current WEC brand were looking at adding a car in IMSA as well. And there are more teams looking for programs than available cars at the moment…

IMSA car could be a Ferrari.



#25 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,906 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 23 June 2024 - 14:34

In fairness, I can understand how Porsche, 12 months ago, might have wanted to take a pause. If I were WEC, I’d be moving heaven and earth to make space for more 963s. Especially since no one else wants to do that.

there plan is to have costumers hypercars in Asian Le Mans but I don't think any other manufacture than Porsche wants to run costumer cars in Asia.



#26 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,906 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 23 June 2024 - 14:36

Leased, AFAIK. It's part of the 963's business model... which Porsche can't realize anymore because there aren't enough spaces left, at least in the FIA WEC.

Porsche also said they don't make money with it. Costumer cars are more expansive and complicated for private teams than expected.



#27 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,906 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 23 June 2024 - 14:37

They can create a stand alone 963 cup for wealthy amateurs! Imagine the carnage

I would like to see that.



#28 404KF2

404KF2
  • Member

  • 19,904 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 23 June 2024 - 16:42

I expect Peugeot will bail from the series shortly. The 9X8 is a turd.



#29 TennisUK

TennisUK
  • Member

  • 22,420 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 23 June 2024 - 20:20

It’s a weird one. They have a very not-generous BoP, which intrigues me. The ACO must know something we don’t, or be happy to have them leave for whatever reason, but it does seem odd. They had a tough time with Covid delaying the programme, but a few years on and Alpine already seems like they have a more rounded project in their first year, which is curious. Part of that is probably due to going the LMdH route… but then Isotta Fraschini are doing a pretty respectable job given their (presumably) *very* different circumstances.

I don’t think they will be missed by the fan base very much.

#30 flingsofdeon

flingsofdeon
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: July 17

Posted 24 June 2024 - 19:19

It’s a fascinating situation ACO find themselves in. This Hypercar era surely has been way way more appealing to manufacturers - and thus fans, than they could have realistically imagined. It feels that out of nowhere they have got the opportunity, with some very careful decisions to make the second biggest global motorsport series (yes, I understand the scale of NASCAR in the US) in the world. Trying to balance it all with all the manufacturers and customer cars, as well as the right number of races, venues and proper broadcast distribution deals and content is fascinating. Hyundai would be a fascinating addition.

Building the profile of the teams and drivers is going to be a key focus to really expand the audience of the series too.

I’d like to see Gounon land a full time ride in Hypercar and more top top rank GT drivers break into the series, as well as the likes of Drugovich, Doohan et al

#31 TennisUK

TennisUK
  • Member

  • 22,420 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 27 June 2024 - 16:22

https://sportscar365...-lmdh-decision/

 

More on Hyundai.

 

Might be waiting for Peugeot to leave to free up some space, I guess.



#32 juicy sushi

juicy sushi
  • Member

  • 6,958 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 27 June 2024 - 16:28

That seems to be the big question mark right now.  If every brand stays, there are two open slots in Hypercar for 2025, but Proton are rumoured to be buying a car from Jota to have a 2 car entry.  Which would leave one spot in Hypercar.  Obviously, if Peugeot were to put themselves out of their misery, this is no longer a problem, although with joint IMSA and WEC programs, are they really going to do 4 cars across 2 series?  I'd like to hope so, but that seems unlikely.

 

Also, McLaren are talking 2027 as the time frame for their entry.  Does that mean WEC will need to continue seeking ways to expand the paddock facilities so they can have more Hypercars, or are we talking about another brand also giving up?  


Edited by juicy sushi, 27 June 2024 - 16:30.


#33 Stephane

Stephane
  • Member

  • 4,823 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 June 2024 - 16:34

Or back to an all prototype grid....



We already have more than enough gt3 series

#34 juicy sushi

juicy sushi
  • Member

  • 6,958 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 27 June 2024 - 16:37

I feel like we need to actually list the entries to get everything in one place.  There's a 40-car limit for 2025, and 18 of those are GT3s, so that leaves us with space for 22 Hypercars.

 

Currently assumed:

 

2 GR Toyotas

2 Ferraris

1 AF Corse Ferrari

2 Penske Porsches

2 Proton Porsches

2 Jota Cadillacs

2 WRT BMWs

2 Alpines

2 Peugeots

2 Isotta Fraschinis

2 Lamborghinis

2 HoR Aston Martins

----------------------------

23 Hypercars

 

Hmmm...  My math seems unworkable.  I guess Proton isn't getting that second 963.  At least, not in WEC.



#35 juicy sushi

juicy sushi
  • Member

  • 6,958 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 27 June 2024 - 16:39

Or back to an all prototype grid....



We already have more than enough gt3 series

I think the GT3s aren't going anywhere, since the AMs need somewhere to play and pay for the whole thing.



#36 TennisUK

TennisUK
  • Member

  • 22,420 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 27 June 2024 - 17:38

I bet ACO would rather have Hyundai than Isotta Fraschini, too.

It does sort of seem like these cars are too expensive for ELMS and AsLMS too. The dream scenario would be circa 22 hypercars in the top class WEC then 10 or so in both ELMS and AsLMS as well as IMSA, to provide the extra entries for Le Mans. And get rid of LMp2 for Le Mans. Ams can drive GT3 :) but commercial realities (hypercar still doesn’t sound cheap even if it’s a lot cheaper than LMP1) probably preclude that.

#37 jee

jee
  • Member

  • 1,308 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 27 June 2024 - 17:51

ACO should get rid of GT cars all together and have a Prototype World Championship with Hypercar/LMDh and LMP2



#38 juicy sushi

juicy sushi
  • Member

  • 6,958 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 27 June 2024 - 18:39

I think that the FIA prefers GT3 to LMP2 since manufacturers play there and the FIA/ACO love their money.

#39 JHSingo

JHSingo
  • Member

  • 9,186 posts
  • Joined: June 13

Posted 27 June 2024 - 19:42

Or back to an all prototype grid....



We already have more than enough gt3 series

 

Yeah, absolutely. I'm quite bored of GT3 anyway for that reason, and whilst it's nice to have better variety than in the final years of GTE, I have to say the Am aspect of it means I'm not hugely interested outside of how Rossi is doing. Just as I wasn't particularly interested in GTE-Am either. Who cares about a bunch of rich dudes you've never heard of, most of whom are significantly out of their depth and are just trying their best not to write off an expensive racing car?

Either go full Hypercar, or copy what IMSA does in having a Pro class. Which still continues to be very healthy. 



Advertisement

#40 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 30,548 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 27 June 2024 - 19:45

GTs on the track creates more overtaking opportunities. I don’t think it would be a good idea to remove them. Races become more deterministic.

Edited by ARTGP, 27 June 2024 - 19:46.


#41 JHSingo

JHSingo
  • Member

  • 9,186 posts
  • Joined: June 13

Posted 27 June 2024 - 19:48

GTs on the track creates more overtaking opportunities. I don’t think it would be a good idea to remove them. Races become more deterministic.

 

That is a good point, re: more overtaking opportunities. The traffic chaos at Le Mans and in most IMSA races definitely adds to the excitement. 



#42 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • Member

  • 32,497 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 27 June 2024 - 19:51

Traffic management is a skill, it would be a shame to lose it.



#43 Stephane

Stephane
  • Member

  • 4,823 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 June 2024 - 20:09

We don't really need it with the current field.



#44 Secretariat

Secretariat
  • Member

  • 1,230 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 27 June 2024 - 20:20

I think it is worth saying that this is supposed to be multi-class racing. Even though we are in a golden age for the top category, it does not mean the other categories need to be shuffled out in my opinion. Asian and European LeMans Series also exists, and maybe in the future they may consider incorporating Hypercars and privateers that run them with aims to expand the calendar in those series.



#45 Stephane

Stephane
  • Member

  • 4,823 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 June 2024 - 20:23

Nah, it is not "supposed" to be multiclass. It is multiclass because we don't have enough cars.  At least that is how it started, and god knows it was needed.

 

I remember Spa in 2003 when there was a Golf GTi in the same race as an Audi R8 (the LMP, no the GT), sure, it was fun to watch and a skill. But was it interesting ??


Edited by Stephane, 27 June 2024 - 20:25.


#46 Secretariat

Secretariat
  • Member

  • 1,230 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 27 June 2024 - 20:39

Nah, it is not "supposed" to be multiclass. It is multiclass because we don't have enough cars.  At least that is how it started, and god knows it was needed.

 

I remember Spa in 2003 when there was a Golf GTi in the same race as an Audi R8 (the LMP, no the GT), sure, it was fun to watch and a skill. But was it interesting ??

OK. I guess it depends where and when in the world we are talking about when it comes to sports car racing. 



#47 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 48,587 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 28 June 2024 - 06:33

That seems to be the big question mark right now.  If every brand stays, there are two open slots in Hypercar for 2025, but Proton are rumoured to be buying a car from Jota to have a 2 car entry.  Which would leave one spot in Hypercar.  Obviously, if Peugeot were to put themselves out of their misery, this is no longer a problem, although with joint IMSA and WEC programs, are they really going to do 4 cars across 2 series?  I'd like to hope so, but that seems unlikely.

 

Also, McLaren are talking 2027 as the time frame for their entry.  Does that mean WEC will need to continue seeking ways to expand the paddock facilities so they can have more Hypercars, or are we talking about another brand also giving up?  

Pre-qualifying! Decide who races through sport.



#48 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 13,171 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 28 June 2024 - 07:24

Biggest fear for me reamins that right now things look rosy and good.

But the question will remain for how long.

If all of a sudden 5 or so tams decide to pull out because of having achieved a mission (win Le Mans, or other races) or acknowledge defeat and results not warranting the efforts, then those GT3's and maybe even the LMP2's might be much needed again to bolster the starting fields.

 

GT3s and LMP2 are still a safety net for endurance racing it still needs, maybe not right now but things can be so different in 2, 3 years....



#49 jee

jee
  • Member

  • 1,308 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 28 June 2024 - 08:12

There is plenty of other series for GT cars nowadaysand the reason GT cars are at Le Mans is because group C died, back then it was a prototype only race with different classes. The interest of manufacturers is bigger than the grid there is, I am sure the grid could be filled with more LMDh/Hypercars and LMP2 and if that is not enough, there is still LMP3.



#50 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 48,587 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 28 June 2024 - 08:16

There is plenty of other series for GT cars nowadaysand the reason GT cars are at Le Mans is because group C died, back then it was a prototype only race with different classes. The interest of manufacturers is bigger than the grid there is, I am sure the grid could be filled with more LMDh/Hypercars and LMP2 and if that is not enough, there is still LMP3.


But you could argue that Group C pushed out the GTs that were always the backbone of the race.