481 replies to this topic

[BRG]

Arguably Le Mans was meant to be for road cars.  The winning Jaguar D Type was driven to and from the venue.  Ultra-specialised prototypes with no road relevance may not actually be in the sprit of Le Mans.

 

Not that most of the current GT3s are very close to their road going versions.

[Stephane]

i guess i depends how far back you want to look.

 

The infamous Mercedes were F1 with new bodywork.

[Stephane]

Just saw in itw with Abiteboul, in Poland for the WRC. When asked about WEC, basically nothing to say now.

[PayasYouRace]

BRG, on 28 Jun 2024 - 08:49, said:

Arguably Le Mans was meant to be for road cars. The winning Jaguar D Type was driven to and from the venue. Ultra-specialised prototypes with no road relevance may not actually be in the sprit of Le Mans.

Not that most of the current GT3s are very close to their road going versions.

I’ve always wondered why they had painted number plates on them. I’m surprised they risked them on public roads like that.

[juicy sushi]

PayasYouRace, on 28 Jun 2024 - 08:16, said:

But you could argue that Group C pushed out the GTs that were always the backbone of the race.

Very much so. Peak Group C may have been prototypes only, but that is a tiny slice of the race’s history.

[ARTGP]

Could Hyundai/Genesis build a GT3 car soon?  

 

Quote

 

 

***Ratel, meanwhile, revealed that he’s heard rumors of two additional brands looking to build GT3 cars in the future, including “a small constructor” similar to but not Ginetta, and another that’s a “bigger” manufacturer.

Spa Friday Notebook – Sportscar365

Edited by ARTGP, 28 June 2024 - 20:09.

[juicy sushi]

Lotus and Hyundai? Nissan?

[TennisUK]

Lotus would be great. Do Hyundai have a vaguely suitable car in their lineup?

[BRG]

TennisUK, on 29 Jun 2024 - 05:49, said:

Lotus would be great. Do Hyundai have a vaguely suitable car in their lineup?

Hyundai have the Genesis Gran Racer concept up their sleeve which could fit the bill.

 

juicy sushi, on 28 Jun 2024 - 20:57, said:

Nissan?

Please no...not after their last debacle.  Anyway the Renault/Nissan alliance already has Alpine in play.

[TennisUK]

That Genesis concept looks like it would be a fair few years from productionising….

[Secretariat]

juicy sushi, on 28 Jun 2024 - 20:57, said:

Lotus and Hyundai? Nissan?

I do have some expectation that Nissan come with a Z GT3. It would seem in line with their heritage and they would probably benefit from a level of nostalgia.  

[Disgrace]

The last roll of the dice to try and get anyone to actually buy a Genesis.

[Henri Greuter]

BRG, on 29 Jun 2024 - 09:08, said:

Hyundai have the Genesis Gran Racer concept up their sleeve which could fit the bill.

 

Please no...not after their last debacle.  Anyway the Renault/Nissan alliance already has Alpine in play.

Sorry but you are always hitting out against Nissan because of their failure, despitre the fact that each and every example of those three failures drover more laps in their single Le Mans race that the two "Pride and joy of Great Britain" cars in the Le Mans 2011 edition drove combined! And probably that included the number of practice laps driven by those "Pride and joy of Great Britain" cars as well! 

 

Yes, the Nissan was a failure but each of the three cars in the race achieved more than the "British pride and joy" Aston Martin AMR-One catastrophes combined. They did 2 and 4 laps  before retireing from the race remember? A grand total of 6 laps combined for two cars!

So if previous catastrophies are deciding who is permitted to race or not, then that "British Pride and Joy" brand Aston Martin has no right to be racing either, using your own logistics..

 

I would welcome Nissan back and trying to see them restore their image again. They deserve the credit for daring to think out of the box.

But I agree with you: due to Alpine's presence already it it not very likely they will be allowed to do anything,

[FLB]

Henri Greuter, on 29 Jun 2024 - 15:13, said:

Sorry but you are always hitting out against Nissan because of their failure, despitre the fact that each and every example of those three failures drover more laps in their single Le Mans race that the two "Pride and joy of Great Britain" cars in the Le Mans 2011 edition drove combined! And probably that included the number of practice laps driven by those "Pride and joy of Great Britain" cars as well! 

 

Yes, the Nissan was a failure but each of the three cars in the race achieved more than the "British pride and joy" Aston Martin AMR-One catastrophes combined. They did 2 and 4 laps  before retireing from the race remember? A grand total of 6 laps combined for two cars!

So if previous catastrophies are deciding who is permitted to race or not, then that "British Pride and Joy" brand Aston Martin has no right to be racing either, using your own logistics..

 

At least the AMR-One sounded *fantastic*...     

 

[juicy sushi]

Secretariat, on 29 Jun 2024 - 12:01, said:

I do have some expectation that Nissan come with a Z GT3. It would seem in line with their heritage and they would probably benefit from a level of nostalgia.

That’s what I was thinking too. Also some teams are still running their GT-R GT3, so they’ll need to give them something.

[Henri Greuter]

FLB, on 29 Jun 2024 - 15:18, said:

At least the AMR-One sounded *fantastic*...     

We have an expression in my country for that:

 

"Much screaming yet a little amount of  wool"

 

meaning :  a lot of hullaballoo yet nothing of importance of value to show for it.

 

You hardly heard the Audi Diesels, yet they delivered the results...

I know what I prefer to have for car to work with.

 

 

Edit:   Must have been quite difficult to get this kind of footage given the tremendous amounts of miles driven with this car....

Just like finding pictures and/or footage of the Citroen BX4TC  Gp B rally car in action during 1986....

Edited by Henri Greuter, 29 June 2024 - 16:13.

[Disgrace]

Yeah, I liked the Nissan. It was a genuine highlight to see the odd beast in the flesh in the Le Mans museum.

[Henri Greuter]

Disgrace, on 29 Jun 2024 - 16:24, said:

Yeah, I liked the Nissan. It was a genuine highlight to see the odd beast in the flesh in the Le Mans museum.

I have to remain honest.

 

As much as I appreciated the kind of thinking behind the car and the concept, to some extend I am not sad to see it failed, though I regret the manners and reasons as of how and why it could not succeed.

 

Because if it had been a success indeed, I don't want to think about how the recent Le Mans starting grid would have looked with 23 such kind of cars on the grid!

Because I felt the car to look so ugly! So I am kind of happy not to see such cars in large numbers at the grids.

Doesn't take away that as for concept and the manner of thinking behind it, I have a lot of respect for the car.

It annoys me to see the car and Nissan being burned off ever so often while, as I mentioned, the three cars that made the race did perform more admirably than that "blueblooded" brand Aston Martin did with their 2011 piece of crap that couldn't do 5 laps with neither car. And that same brand being reverred and hallowed nowadays because of using a piece of hardware that is the ultimate kind of fetish piece in the racing world by reputation yet also with little to show.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 29 June 2024 - 17:25.

[BRG]

Sorry, but Nissan are not excused just because Aston Martin were totally crap as well.  Nissan is a  major car maker, AM is only a boutique company.. 

 

And anyway, AM have actually won Le Mans in the past, whilst Nissan haven't.

[PayasYouRace]

Some people just love to hate.

[Stephane]

I really loved the r390, Nissan should come back with something similar.

[Henri Greuter]

BRG, on 29 Jun 2024 - 18:41, said:

Sorry, but Nissan are not excused just because Aston Martin were totally crap as well.  Nissan is a  major car maker, AM is only a boutique company.. 

 

And anyway, AM have actually won Le Mans in the past, whilst Nissan haven't.

very late 50's vs 90's, yup, what a comparison.

 

BTW, you know where the chassis that used Nissan engines in the period 85-98 and that failed on them were built, right?

[BRG]

Henri Greuter, on 29 Jun 2024 - 19:44, said:

very late 50's vs 90's, yup, what a comparison.

 

Sorry, I didn't realise that there was a cut-off point before which any successes don' t count.

 

Both the recent Nissan and Aston Martin efforts were disgraceful travesties.  OK?

[Henri Greuter]

BRG, on 30 Jun 2024 - 19:53, said:

Sorry, I didn't realise that there was a cut-off point before which any successes don' t count.

 

Both the recent Nissan and Aston Martin efforts were disgraceful travesties.  OK?

Wholeheartedly agree! 

 

 

(sorry for the late reply but I was off-line for quite some time)

[Henri Greuter]

Stephane, on 29 Jun 2024 - 19:33, said:

I really loved the r390, Nissan should come back with something similar.

R390 was a neat car.

But to be honest, those Lola chassis used in '89 and '90 were also great looking cars, at least for me they were.

[juicy sushi]

The late 1980s Group C Nissans and Toyotas were quite attractive with their slick lines, but they didn't quite have the aerodynamic performance of their rivals, and came up a little short by being too conservative.  But they were mostly much better looking than the Group C 3.5 attempts that came after them (only the XJR-14 was really a looker from that bunch).  Though they did create the peak car from that entire era of race cars in the AAR Eagle Mk III, but that was an IMSA-only jem.

[Henri Greuter]

juicy sushi, on 01 Jul 2024 - 00:18, said:

The late 1980s Group C Nissans and Toyotas were quite attractive with their slick lines, but they didn't quite have the aerodynamic performance of their rivals, and came up a little short by being too conservative.  But they were mostly much better looking than the Group C 3.5 attempts that came after them (only the XJR-14 was really a looker from that bunch).  Though they did create the peak car from that entire era of race cars in the AAR Eagle Mk III, but that was an IMSA-only jem.

 

 

I did see the IMSA Eagle-Toyota in real time but for me it looked, at best, functional.

The Electramotive Nissans of the period 88-91 and especially the later car were better looking, but that's my opinion.

 

 

Anyway, I would not mind see Nissan returning to the WEC and bolster the Japanese input in the series. Or see Honda/Acura make the jump over the ocean.

[PayasYouRace]

juicy sushi, on 01 Jul 2024 - 00:18, said:

The late 1980s Group C Nissans and Toyotas were quite attractive with their slick lines, but they didn't quite have the aerodynamic performance of their rivals, and came up a little short by being too conservative. But they were mostly much better looking than the Group C 3.5 attempts that came after them (only the XJR-14 was really a looker from that bunch). Though they did create the peak car from that entire era of race cars in the AAR Eagle Mk III, but that was an IMSA-only jem.

The Eagle III was a paving slab on wheels, but least it makes it easier to paint in Forza Motorsport.

The XJR-14 is a thing of beauty though.

It’s coincidence that in the past few days I’ve been trawling through Racing Sports Cars and looking at each Le Mans entry. Very odd to see some of the later Porsche 962s with the short tail and separate wing.

Moving into the 90s, what was the story behind the WR closed bodywork single-seaters?

[Viryfan]

PayasYouRace, on 01 Jul 2024 - 08:18, said:

The Eagle III was a paving slab on wheels, but least it makes it easier to paint in Forza Motorsport.

The XJR-14 is a thing of beauty though.

It’s coincidence that in the past few days I’ve been trawling through Racing Sports Cars and looking at each Le Mans entry. Very odd to see some of the later Porsche 962s with the short tail and separate wing.

Moving into the 90s, what was the story behind the WR closed bodywork single-seaters?

The WR was basically a 905 spyder (which was a feeder series category in France back in 1991 and 1992 for endurance racing giving a chance for those who lost out in the open wheel ladder) on steroïds with a 405 dakar engine if'm not wrong.

Light car, pretty good power output, dubious aero and safety (killing poor Enjolras in 1997 and freaking the **** out of William David in 1996).

Edited by Viryfan, 01 July 2024 - 08:28.

[Henri Greuter]

Viryfan, on 01 Jul 2024 - 08:26, said:

The WR was basically a 905 spyder (which was a feeder series category in France back in 1991 and 1992 for endurance racing giving a chance for those who lost out in the open wheel ladder) on steroïds with a 405 dakar engine if'm not wrong.

Light car, pretty good power output, dubious aero and safety (killing poor Enjolras in 1997 and freaking the **** out of William David in 1996).

 

 

I wonder if those WR's would have stand a chance to be allowed to enter had it not been for the near fatal collapse of Endurance racing thanks to the Ecclestone coup to introduce Endurance sprint races with F1 rules inspired cars.

But ACO could use just about every kind of car to bolster the starting fields thus the WR's were welcome too.

 

Look at what we see now with the safety net LMP2 being in danger to make place for more Hypercars & LMdh's and GT3's.

 

And a little more than 30 years ago we had LM staring fields of less that 40 cars and some of them were not worthy to be in the field. The ultimate showing of dsperation. The year when the BRM 3.5 liter had failed to allow two of its drivers to set a time for qualifying for the race and the car then being allowed to start with only one nominated driver for the full 24 hours. But at least one more car to see on Saturday 16:00 hour.....

We might comolain about matters nowadays, but compared with the first half of the 90s?

Edited by Henri Greuter, 01 July 2024 - 08:41.

[Secretariat]

PayasYouRace, on 01 Jul 2024 - 08:18, said:

The Eagle III was a paving slab on wheels, but least it makes it easier to paint in Forza Motorsport.

The XJR-14 is a thing of beauty though.

It’s coincidence that in the past few days I’ve been trawling through Racing Sports Cars and looking at each Le Mans entry. Very odd to see some of the later Porsche 962s with the short tail and separate wing.

Moving into the 90s, what was the story behind the WR closed bodywork single-seaters?

Mulsanne's Corner is a great technical resource regarding sportscar prototypes. The associated book is great as well.

 

https://www.mulsannescorner.com/

[PayasYouRace]

Secretariat, on 01 Jul 2024 - 11:36, said:

Mulsanne's Corner is a great technical resource regarding sportscar prototypes. The associated book is great as well.

https://www.mulsannescorner.com/

Thanks. Might come in handy.

[juicy sushi]

Mike's website is great, he's got not just info, but interviews with the people who did the aerowork, so you can actually get the inside story of what they were thinking.  I agree the MKIII looks like the box it came in, but the stop watch doesn't lie and the combination of 800hp, the front diffuser and huge tunnels certainly delivered the superior lap time.

[Henri Greuter]

juicy sushi, on 01 Jul 2024 - 15:35, said:

Mike's website is great, he's got not just info, but interviews with the people who did the aerowork, so you can actually get the inside story of what they were thinking.  I agree the MKIII looks like the box it came in, but the stop watch doesn't lie and the combination of 800hp, the front diffuser and huge tunnels certainly delivered the superior lap time.

Very much like the Intrepid you had a bit earlier in those days. It wasn't a beauty compared with other cars of its era but it did the job.

[Stephane]

I loved the site when he was updating on the new cars. Now he's more into older things.

His work is still as good as before, i am just less interested.

[PayasYouRace]

White text on black is really painful on the eyes.

[ARTGP]

Stephane, on 01 Jul 2024 - 16:54, said:

I loved the site when he was updating on the new cars. Now he's more into older things.

His work is still as good as before, i am just less interested.

 

I really enjoyed it from 2006-2012 when he was reporting on the Audi, the Peugeot, and the Porsche/Acuras. The internet was sorely lacking of sportscar tech analysis at that time.

 

Speaking of nostalgia, anyone remember when John Dagys used to run the-paddock.net? Those were the times...     

 

It looks like you can still get a limited version of it on the wayback machine. the-paddock.net -- the latest sportscar news from around the world - Home (archive.org)

Edited by ARTGP, 01 July 2024 - 21:44.

[juicy sushi]

Apropos voices from the past,  dailysportscar has a previous columnist coming back to Le Mans for the first time in a decade and gives his thoughts on the Hypercar experience:  https://www.dailyspo...car-racing.html

[juicy sushi]

dailysportscar sums up their rumours:  https://www.dailyspo...-extension.html

 

TL;DR

 

Hyundai not said yes, but never saying no, either.  McLaren, not said yes, but has ideas.  Ford look personally very interested, but with a 9 figure commitment to the 2026 F1 rules, maybe hasn't got the capacity.

 

Lotus are sniffing, but nothing solid yet, and Alfa's appetite may have lessened after Stellantis saw Peugeot choke so spectacularly.

[ARTGP]

I don’t think Mclaren is serious. They are just keeping themselves in the news for PR.

Edited by ARTGP, 02 July 2024 - 16:06.

[juicy sushi]

It seems a weird fit for them.  LMDh is the rules set that makes the least sense for them as well because it would essentially mean one of their main strengths (building their own chassis) would be left on the sidelines.

 

But I am really excited by the idea of Hyundai diving in with 4 cars in dual programs.  That's the kind of commitment that will add plenty of extra depth to the grid, although I'd be really curious who they partner with in WEC.  Do they draft in Proton?  United?

[FLB]

juicy sushi, on 02 Jul 2024 - 16:50, said:

 

But I am really excited by the idea of Hyundai diving in with 4 cars in dual programs.  That's the kind of commitment that will add plenty of extra depth to the grid, although I'd be really curious who they partner with in WEC.  Do they draft in Proton?  United?

Rumour I've seen is Ganassi.

[ARTGP]

Ganassi ran the dual program for the Ford GT.  However, outside of Le Mans, the Ganassi WEC Ford GT operation wasn't that great. No championships and it seemed to decline a lot in the 4th year.  It needs an overhaul if the Cadillac team is anything to go by. 

Edited by ARTGP, 02 July 2024 - 17:28.

[juicy sushi]

Ganassi is rumoured by everyone to be the IMSA team. They did create a European base of operations for their WEC stuff. Doing both would make a lot of sense if they were going to start sharing data instead of the siloed idiocy Cadillac seem to be doing.

[Secretariat]

More of a wish than anything but its a silly season thread: Ford is poised to leverage know how from their racing hybrid relationship with Red Bull and their own electric only race projects for a future project. They seemingly have continued the discontinued Ford GT. Given that they were able to keep the Ford GT project secret, I do wonder what surprises they have in store for a shot at overall endurance race wins (the big ones). I wonder if they try to do a front mid-engined prototype; and do it true justice. They were Panoz's engine partner and the original Ford Mustang GTP was front engined.

[juicy sushi]

I think they’ll probably stick to a more conventional idea. But I also think they’ll stick to GT3.

[Secretariat]

juicy sushi, on 03 Jul 2024 - 02:51, said:

I think they’ll probably stick to a more conventional idea. But I also think they’ll stick to GT3.

Probably. However, everything old is new again. Ford had participated to varying degrees in GTP and GTO simultaneously in the 1980s. Plus technically speaking, Ford and later Panoz (with Ford involvement) produced race winning front engine prototypes. In a BoP formula, a front engine prototype would seem more conventional than the 9X8 and has shown a capability of producing wins.

[HistoryFan]

According to Pitwalk the Porsche plan was to enter a car with Vettel, Schumacher and Glock but it failed because of Vettel. So Vettel not at Le Mans in 2025?

 

https://www.pitwalk....es-team-platzen

[William Hunt]

ARTGP, on 02 Jul 2024 - 16:06, said:

I don’t think Mclaren is serious. They are just keeping themselves in the news for PR.

That's what people thought too when McLaren was linked to IndyCar, Formula E or E-Extreme, but they did all of it. Zack Brown doesn't talk bullsh!t when he says he is considering something

[Secretariat]

William Hunt, on 05 Jul 2024 - 22:46, said:

That's what people thought too when McLaren was linked to IndyCar, Formula E or E-Extreme, but they did all of it. Zack Brown doesn't talk bullsh!t when he says he is considering something

I agree. I think for a growing number of companies and/or race organizations, participating in motorsports where-ever its happening, instead of one particular series, is the way to go. Not necessarily a new idea, but a welcomed one.