4580 replies to this topic

[philippe7]

Prompted by the huge success of the "personal photos from the paddock" thread, what about a place where we could post our own photos from the "track" , selected - of course- for their "artistic "nature ( who said self-indulgent , or pretentious ? )

I realise this might attract a lot of "non 56k modem user friendly" posts , but still....

To make a change from single-seaters, I modestly chime in with a few grainy B&W from Le Mans 1973.....some of that time's Group II or IV were looking quite beastly don't you think ?

[Rob Ryder]

OK Philippe, I'll join in.. all of these are from the 1973 International Trophy at Silverstone (F1 & F5000)

Emerson Fittipaldi : Lotus 72D


Howden Ganley : Iso-Marlboro FX3B


Niki Lauda : BRM P160D


Jackie Stewart : Tyrrell 006/2


Tony Dean : Chevron B24


David Hobbs : Lola T330


Teddy Pilette : Chevron B24

Edited by Rob Ryder, 08 April 2019 - 11:24.

[Buford]

Well this is as personal a track photo as I can offer. Me in 1980.



I can't believe I used to crawl into shitboxes like that!

Actually I guess that is a paddock and not track photo now that I think about it. I wish I had a scan of the flip - fireball photos. That was on the track!

[Nanni Dietrich]

Originally posted by philippe7

Definitely Arturo's best race of his XXXXLoooong career!

[philippe7]

Originally posted by Buford
Well this is as personal a track photo as I can offer. Me in 1980.



I can't believe I used to crawl into shitboxes like that!

Actually I guess that is a paddock and not track photo now that I think about it. I wish I had a scan of the flip - fireball photos. That was on the track!

Buford.....for us europeans who know nothing about oval dirt-tracks.....could you maybe elaborate a little about those very different looking ( in tread , and also apparently in size ? ) front tyres of yours ?

Thanks

[Mallory Dan]

No girls around Buford, I thought you never went anywhere without an entourage !!!

[Buford]

That was at the road races. There I usually kicked butt on the track and did not feel my life was in danger (though in retrospective it was). So I often took a "traveling team" member along and my long time crew brought girlfriends, so we often did have a bit of a female entourage around or found some out prowling on Friday and Saturday night, or found some at the track.

The ovals and the Sprint Car though was serious business. I was as scared shitless as I would allow myself to acknowledge. Not only because my life was in serious danger (because people around me were losing theirs) but because I was driving a shitbox that didn't handle but had a great engine that was just competitive enough to put me in the middle of the pack, the most dangerous place to be especially for a rookie. It all had my full attention.

I could afford the time at the road races to play with girls, because I had total confidence in my talents and abilities. The Sprint car was a beast that required ALL my attention. There were races where girls I knew in the areas we raced did come out to watch. But they bought a ticket and sat up in the grandstands. We met up afterwards. If I had them in the pits I wasted too much thinking time trying to peek down their blouses.

[Buford]

Originally posted by philippe7



Buford.....for us europeans who know nothing about oval dirt-tracks.....could you maybe elaborate a little about those very different looking ( in tread , and also apparently in size ? ) front tyres of yours ?

Thanks

Well that was because we only had 6 wheels and tires!!! Actually we only had 4 and had borrowed two! The size difference is called stagger. Because you only turn left, the car is set up to turn on its own because the wheels are different sizes. You actually have to turn the steering wheel right toward the wall to get it to go straight. Then as you approach the corner you release your pressure to the right and the car turns in on its own initially. Stagger is critical to oval racing. You need to have all kinds of wheels and tires in different dimensions and tread patters plus a grooving tool to put even more grooves into the tires depending on the track surface and how it changes during the racing sessions.

The good drivers go out on the corners and look at the track and watch the other races and then run back and change tires and shocks before the next time they go out, all the time. As the track dries out you need different tires and tread patterns. If they water it at some point, you have to change again. We only had two front wheels and four rears and just one set of shocks for all conditions and had no money for more. We spent $18,000 on our car when the fast guys at the time were running $250,000 programs.

You might notice the cars in the background had wings. We did not have one. That was before we found a bent one on a garbage can and straightened it out so then we had a wing. We never did have a front one so my car pushed and pushed. We did not have a chance to be competitive. But a couple times, on the mile at Sedalia, once at Knoxville, my car was magic. The conditions suited what we had. Those times I could run in the top five. The rest of the time, with no money and the oldest and worst car at the track, but with a very good engine, I was lucky to get near the top ten, middle of the pack.

[Ruairidh]

Bob Judd in this months Road & Track has a piece on midget racing in 2004 that I enjoyed (but I know nothing about dirt track races so am probably not the best judge).

[Buford]

Oval track Midget, Sprint Car, and best of all, Super Modified racing is some of the most exciting racing you can ever see (or do). Open wheels, antiquated designs that have a heritage dating back more than 50 years. They are high tech today but still skinny high center of gravity bad boys (in the case of the Midgets and Sprints) and are an accident looking for a place to happen even sitting still with their engines off. They are mean race cars. Real men's race cars. And the drivers harken back to the racing days of old. No wine and cheese elitist pretty boys need apply. Well I did once upon a time but they did not make it easy for me, nor did I want them to or expect them to. I had to earn their respect and I think I did, on the battlefield.

This kind of racing has made great inroads into Australia and New Zealand but other than that and Canada, the USA seems to be the only place that it exists. You guys are missing out!

[HistoricMustang]

Anybody that has a driveshaft running between their legs falls in my catagory of "real men". Buford is correct as this is the most fun I have had at the race track.

No, I was not in the car but in the stands. Something about that drive shaft coming apart at speed!

Henry

[Simpson RX1]

Seems there's a busy scene in South Africa Buford.............or at least there was.

I was lucky enough to be present on the night when we had a visit from 4 tourists from the SA sprint car series at the track where I used to race (by coincidence, Ringwood Raceway where one Derek Warwick was once Captain of the Stock Car squad, and indeed was once World Champion).

They were quite large cars, probably to accomodate the stonking great V8's that powered them, but seemed to have relatively small wheels...........we had a tarmac oval and they appeared to be running F2 slicks.

The sight and sound was unforgettable; like rolling thunder as they approached you, with sheets of flame from the headers as they backed off for the corners, then as they accelerated away a sound that I haven't experienced this side of Air Show featuring Phantom jets!

The thing that really stuck in my mind was the sheer torque of those big bent 8's as they lit up the OUTSIDE rear tyres powering out of the turns.............stirring stuff and a night that still seems as fresh to me today as it was nearly 20 years ago.......

[Buford]

Oh I did not know they had Sprint Cars in South Africa.

When they started the Super Modified race last year at Las Vegas Speedway, the grandstand actually shook, you could feel the sound waves beating on your chest, and car alarms went off in the parking lot behind the grandstand!!!

Yeah that driveshaft between the legs thing was not pretty. But I was more concerned with getting my head cut off, which happened to people from time to time. Or burning up, which I damn near did my first time out in the Sprint Car. When you race a Sprint Car, it is not 'IF' you will crash, but "HOW SOON." They also say, "Son, if you don't crash once in awhile, you ain't goin' fast enough. I made sure I was going fast enough.

[Simpson RX1]

Do you routinely walk around with a wheelbarrow to carry your balls in?

[Pils1989]

Thanks Rob for Teddy's picture, I've sent him the thread's link.

[Buford]

Originally posted by Simpson RX1
Do you routinely walk around with a wheelbarrow to carry your balls in?

No but I have "Once young and stupid" tattooed on my forehead and a healthy case of survival's guilt.

[philippe7]

Thanks Buford for the details about car set up in oval dirt racing....I always knew this type of racing requested some very brave driving, but didn't realise the importance of set up , tyre groves etc...

I only spectated midget ( or sprint cars , whatever it was.....it was run on the 1/4 mile track if that helps....) once , it was at the San José fairgrounds ( Cal ) in 1978 , and although I knew nothing about the drivers , rules ,etc, the show was indeed entertaining....that is maybe a strong point of ovalracing , that it's also a "show" together with a race , and that spectators who just come for the show can enjoy themselves as much as the real fans....

[Buford]

Yeah - road racing for the spectators is often an all day picnic on a hillside or grassy area, which plays out in a leisurely fashion and requires some paying attention to really know what is going on. An investment of effort for the spectator. Since you only see a section of the track, you have to remember who was where last lap and a lot of the action takes place out of your view. Oval racing on the other hand is more in your face. On the short tracks, races rarely last more than 15 minutes. But all hell breaks loose while that time ticks off. It doesn’t take a lot of knowing what is going on. It is all in front of you and you just can sit there in awe.

I raced 90% road racing in my career. My oval track seasons were far less successful than my road racing years. But they are the years I think defined my self-image as a real race car driver and not a pretty boy play actor. The road racing was a girl sport compared to the ovals! The most worn out physically I ever was in a race car was one year at Des Moines at a World of Outlaws Sprint Car race in 100 degree heat. A 30-lap feature I made at the back. I think I only passed 2 or 3 cars, the dust was totally blinding, and the last 5 laps my tongue was hanging out and I was about to pass out. A 15-mile race! But one that took every bit you had to give and more as a driver just to stay alive, let alone win the damn thing. It is hard to beat Steve Kinser.

I was primarily a road racer so I can say it without being a “my kind of racing is better than your kind” type. I did them both and I can say oval racing was MUCH more difficult than road racing. I know that flies in the face of conventional wisdom. But most people with conventional wisdom never did it!

[Rosemayer]

Buford

In 1970 in my earley 20's I was a whore I would race anything if someone would give me a ride.
I drove one race in a sprint car similar to the one in your picture and have never been as scared of anything like that brutal ill handling beast,It only felt safe in a 45 degree power slide.For the first time in my driving carrer I was glad when the heat was over once was enough.My GT 1 bigblock 67 Corvette was a piece of cake compared to the sprint even at 170 mph.

[Buford]

Hee Hee. Yeah - those suckers got your attention didn't they? That's why I said, when it was Sprint Car day, the girls sat in the grandstand. I needed to focus my mind on 1) Staying alive and 2) trying to pass somebody.

I won championships and lots of races and lots of "first in class behind the unbeatable factory teams" stuff in road racing. But the night I finally felt I was a race car driver for real was the night after about my 12th Sprint car race when I was walking across the pits after the race penniless, and I walked by the winner Steve Kinser who was surrounded by fans and was signing autographs. He looked up and saw me walking by and he gave me a half smile and a nod. Just for a brief moment, and then went back to his fan duties. I was floored.

If you have never done something like this you wouldn't understand. That was a very big deal. The champion had acknowledged my presence of his own volution where he had totally ignored me previously. He was saying, "You're OK kid. You belong here" Stupid as it sounds, that was better than any race I ever won.

[Twin Window]

Some of mine from over the years.

An F5000 Surtees TS8 blasts off the line at Shelsley Walsh hillclimb in 1975...


Michael Andretti at Miami in 1987...


The Schlesser/Streiff/Haran Rondeau during the 1981 Le Mans 24 Hours...


Makinen after being pulled by the police following the Blenheim Palace stage of the '99 Rally GB...


Clive Skilton burns-out his rail at Santa Pod in 1974...


Taken from Bottom Bend at Brands, Depailler in his Alfa 179 V12 during practice for his final GP...


Mansell in the Lotus 87 at Caesar's Palace for the GP in 1981...


The start of the F5000 race at the 1973 International Trophy - Hobbs, Lunger & Holland lead...


A bit special for me, as I designed the livery on the Kremer 956 for 1984...


Gilles struggling with buggered Michelins on his 312T5 at the 1980 British GP...

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Buford

If you have never done something like this you wouldn't understand.

Hi Buford

I'm not comparing oval racing to rallying as such, but your comment applies to the discipline neverthless...

[David Beard]

There was a time when we seemed to see a lot of Rapid Movements....

[Ray Bell]

Just to join in...


Clark and Brabham exit Longford's Viaduct and head for the Kings Bridge


1966... Clark and Hill on the Long Bridge in a Saturday heat


Brabham comes off the Long Bridge and shapes up to enter Newry Corner


Bob Jane and Frank Gardner in practice for the 1965 ATT at Lakeside


Jim McKeown's Lotus Cortina entering the Tunnel of Love at Catalina Park


Niel Allen leads a nondescript field out of Scrub Corner the day he took the outright lap record at Hume Weir

[David Beard]

I like to call this "Woodcote Bear"...

[Twin Window]

David, the first shot is of Matt Spitzley isn't it? Taken from the inside of Woodcote, circa 1973 I suspect, during an F3 race. Matt was - and I'm sure still is - a really nice bloke when I got to know him during his time as co-team owner with Alan Docking.

The Hulme shot must be from the 1972 International Trophy, I guess. They're great pics, and makes me wish again that I'd shot more b&w back then. I have got some, but I've not scanned any yet. Mind you, a decent camera would have been a help too...!

Ray - I love that top shot of yours! The others don't seem to be loading on my pc properly though.

[Buford]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Hi Buford

I'm not comparing oval racing to rallying as such, but your comment applies to the discipline neverthless...

Yeah - acceptance by your peers for being the real thing is the true satisfaction. In road racing they had to accept me because I won every race for two years starting with my third. But in Sprint Cars, I was just a field filler, a raw rookie, and road racing pretty boy, and they had no excuse for me. They knew my car was dangerous and so was I. I flipped it and made a big fireball the first time out. I had a long way to go to prove myself. The night I found out I had done so, through a simple smile and a nod from the Champion. who still is champion to this day 24 years later, that was the night I fulfilled my lifelong dream. I knew then, I really was a race car driver. The real thing.

[Keir]

Ray,
scary shots of Longford!!

[Ray Bell]

They looked okay to me!

What was scary was going back there three months ago...

[Keir]

Ray,

I try to imagine myself in a car!

Longford certainly looked daunting!!

I guess that not much is left??

[Ray Bell]

Importantly, the bridges are both gone. The river is still there, however... and the level crossing, the pub and the Viaduct.

But the area where the pits was is all changed, just cow paddock now, and a new road through that section slices the scene to bits.

When you come out I'll take you around and show you...

[mctshirt]

Another lost track...Levin circa 1972 from a friends collection
http://www.gpforums....&postid=3607541

[philippe7]

Thank you all for great pictures, and yes this first shot of Longford really does have something special....and you can almost smell the scent of those big "mugla" eucalyptus trees !!!

A few more of mine to keep the ball rolling ( the first two have already been posted, but about a year back, so....)


Jody Scheckter, Brand's Hatch, 1973 RoC


Bob Evans, Mallory Park, 1974


Brian "Mozart" Redman , Mallory Park, 1974

[barrykm]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Simpson RX1
[B]Seems there's a busy scene in South Africa Buford.............or at least there was.

Do you remember Harry van der Spuy..? Definitely one of my heroes

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Importantly, the bridges are both gone. The river is still there, however... and the level crossing, the pub and the Viaduct.

...

Ray - great photos - I have little knowledge of these tracks, the idea that the 60's greats ran 2.5litre cars on what look like country roads is amazing. Any more? Please!

[David Lawson]

A brilliant thread with wonderful examples of very personal motor racing photographs from around the world. I enjoy seeing the work of all the enthusiastic amateurs which for me convey every bit as much of the occassion as the best professional work.

Like others have said I wish I had better camera equipment all those years ago and could have afforded to have taken more film stock to race meetings - I certainly remember having to make one roll of film last for three days of a grand prix weekend in the early 1970s.

Here are a few of my photographs all taken at Brands over the years.


Emerson Fittipaldi at Westfield, Brands Hatch 1976


Clay Regazzoni at Druids, Brands Hatch 1977


Ricardo Patrese at South Bank, Brands Hatch 1978


Didier Pironi at Bottom Straight, Brands hatch 1980


Elio de Angelis at Bottom Bend, Brands Hatch 1980


Rene Arnoux at Clearways, Brands Hatch 1982


Manfred Winklehock at Druids, Brands Hatch 1983


Elio de Angelis exiting Druids, Brands hatch 1984


Michele Alboreto braking for Druids, Brands Hatch 1986

David

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Ruairidh
Ray - great photos - I have little knowledge of these tracks, the idea that the 60's greats ran 2.5litre cars on what look like country roads is amazing. Any more? Please!

In the absence of access to a couple more pics I have, here's a 'today' pic from Bernd's Tasman Series site... Tannery Straight just two years ago...

[Simpson RX1]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by barrykm
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Simpson RX1
Seems there's a busy scene in South Africa Buford.............or at least there was.

Do you remember Harry van der Spuy..? Definitely one of my heroes


I fear you may misunderstand me barry...........I live (and always have) in the UK, I just had the pleasure of witnessing 4 of these cars that were visiting my track from SA.

I only partially remember 2 of the driver's names, Cronje and van der Moeve (but then as van der Moeve appears to be the equivalent of Smith over here, that'll come as no surprise!!)

[David Beard]

An oil coated Tyrrell near the end of the 72 British GP...

[Nordic1]

Senna at Brands - 84

A shot of Senna at Brands in the Toleman.

Fabi at Brands 86

Fabi in the Benetton-BMW B186 at Brands

M Nordstrom VW Beetle

Somthing completly different, a VW at the British GP (rallyX)

[WDH74]

Thought I'd share, too. From the 2003 Road America 500:

[IMG]http://img102.exs.cx...edaudi01.th.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img58.exs.cx/...orsche79.th.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img58.exs.cx/...ferrari0.th.jpg[/IMG]

Hope they're not too recent.....!

-William

[WGD706]

With the discussions about the FOM and copyright infringements in the RC section, I was wondering about the postings of all these great photos here and in other parts of TNF.
Quoting from the back of this year's Silverstone GP tickets:

"The use of photographic equipment is allowed for private purposes only. All other recording and any transmission is prohibited. As a condition of entry to the Event you assign (by way of present assignment of future copyright) the copyright in any photographs or recordings you make at the Event to Formula One Administration Limited ("FOA") and agree that any photographs or recordings shall not be used for any form of public advertisement or display or for any other purposes (except the private enjoyment of the person making the film) without FOA's prior written consent."

I believe the same or similar wording is on the back of all GP tickets.


Are we walking on thin ice here or does our 'private enjoyment' and the sharing of same here mean we are within our legal rights to share these pictures?
Warren

[FrankB]

Originally posted by WGD706
With the discussions about the FOM and copyright infringements in the RC section, ...

"The use of photographic equipment is allowed for private purposes only. ... As a condition of entry to the Event you assign (by way of present assignment of future copyright) the copyright in any photographs ...you make at the Event to Formula One Administration Limited ("FOA") and agree that any photographs...shall not be used...(except the private enjoyment of the person making the film) without FOA's prior written consent."

Are we walking on thin ice here or does our 'private enjoyment' and the sharing of same here mean we are within our legal rights to share these pictures?
Warren

In the RC thread referred to, Vitesse2 said

Reading the very precise phrasing of FOM's email, I think they probably own the rights back to 1981. It specifically says "FIA Formula One World Championship™", which is the official name of the Championship after the 1980 season. Until 1980 it was the "World Championship for Drivers" (plus the manufacturers/constructors' titles, of course).

So perhaps pre 1981 season photos that were taken by Joe Public with his Instamatic are OK for posting here, but photos taken by Joe Public's son today, with his digital camera are automatically the copyright of FOA ...

As a condition of entry to the Event you assign (by way of present assignment of future copyright) the copyright in any photographs...

[Rob Ryder]

Don't worry WGD706, just send Uncle Bernie a couple of pounds and that should keep him happy.. we all know he needs the money

[dolomite]

Perhaps we should all send an invoice to the likes of Marlboro, Elf, JPS etc for the free advertising we are providing for them here?

[FrankB]

Originally posted by dolomite
Perhaps we should all send an invoice to the likes of Marlboro, Elf, JPS etc for the free advertising we are providing for them here?

Be careful - they may object to the use of their logos without permission.

;)

[philippe7]

They are certainly not kidding about it nowadays ....when I visited the GP of Australia in 2000 as a "VIP" ( ie with pits and paddock pass ) I was clearly told by the authorities at the gate of the "restricted" areas that still photographs were ok ( subject to permission of the team personel if I dared to take a picture of a car inside the garages ) but that personal video cameras were totally out of the question....and believe me they had a lot of people watching out for that...probably they had sold the exclusive rights to any sort of video image in their TV package....

[Ray Bell]

A similar situation exists with the V8Supercars here... but Shane Cowham, who was regularly threatened by various teams because he sold paintings of their cars, got in touch with a Patent Attorney and straightened matters out somewhat.

That, however, applies to paintings. Not photographs.

Ridiculous... you would think that the benefits to their sponsors would outweight whatever perceived advantage they receive from governing everyone's shutters. Not to mention the PR disadvantages...

[Buford]

I remember talking to the head guy at Papyrus Software one year when I still used to go to Indy. That is the company that designed the IndyCar computer game, the Nascar Racing game that is still the best, and of course Grand Prix Legends. The company was dissolved last year.

But anyway he was telling me about this trademark crap that first started a decade or so ago. They had the K Mart Indy Car on their box cover the first couple years. The third year it switched to the Tony Bettenhausen team car sponcered by a local mining company, Amax or something like that. David Kraemmer (sp?) told me what had happened. K Mart suddenly wanted big bucks to put their car on the box the third year. They said, WTF? This is free publicity. Not only do all the kids who buy this game get the K Mart message, but the box covers are on store shelves with your name on it even in competing stores to K Mart. What is it that you are unhappy about? K Mart still wanted big money. They said, we don't make that kind of money on these things. They wouldn't budge and Papyrus had a whole run of boxes already printed assuming the original agreement was still good. They were going out in a month.

So he called up Tony Bettenhausen and told him who he was. Tony said, "Oh hell yes, we love your game and we play it here at the race shop all the time." David asked if they would like to have their car on the cover. Tony said, "Oh wow, my sponsor would love it. What do we have to do?" So they did a rush job and printed up new boxes and everybody was then happy. Amax got free exposure and K Mart ultimately went bankrupt, but has reemerged and just bought Sears. Tony is dead and Papyrus is too. Not totally a happy ending but it does show the stupidity of these copyright, trademark guys who have forgotten the benifits of free publicity in their land rush to pad the quartlerly profits to report to Wall Street.

[dolomite]

Originally posted by Ray Bell

Ridiculous... you would think that the benefits to their sponsors would outweight whatever perceived advantage they receive from governing everyone's shutters. Not to mention the PR disadvantages...

Yes. My point exactly.