643 replies to this topic

[RTH]

Tomorrow evening Friday 27 May UK television BBC 2 7.00pm "The Money Programme"

"Rover's Billion Pound Blunder "

An investigation programme in to where all the money has gone .

When BMW departed the scene in 2000 they gave away £500M in cash (to pay redundancy money to the workers ) and £800M in assets.

Two serious bids, - Alchemy , who would save just 2500 jobs keep only the MG brand and make plastic/aluminium sports car only and........

The Phoenix 4 who would save 6500 jobs and go on making all the same range of Rover & MG cars

The Government interfered and cemented the deal with Phoenix then failed over the next 5 years to look at the accounts until all the money was spent and nearly all the valuable assets had been sold.

Should be worth watching.

[ian senior]

I would hope that "The Money Programme", which has (or used to have) a reputation for serious journalism, will be completely objective about all this, but frankly I'm not holding my breath.

PWC are still doing their job at Longbridge. The intial report from the Financial Reporting Council has not yet gone to the Government (although it will do in a matter of days). There may well be another Government investigation. All of this means of course that very little (if any) additional information, apart from what has already been issued, is actually in the public domain. This leads me to think we are in for another re-hash of existing facts, heavily laced with comment and speculation, and with the money paid to the Pheonix 4 featuring heavily as the major issue in the company's downfall.

It's all a sorry tale, and makes me feel very sad. I like Rovers and MGs and want to still be able to buy them.

[Mallory Dan]

Re the 2000 takeover proposals. I recall thinking that since the Government and Unions were backing the Phoenix 4 over Moulton/Alchemy, it was all going to end in disaster sooner rather than later. Given the sad history of our car industry since the 60s, and the close involvement of these institutions, surely even Blair's lot could have worked out that the Moulton bid was the best offer.

[petefenelon]

What I failed to see at the time of the Alchemy and Phoenix bids was how they were in any way incompatible. The MGF/TF could've been spun off into a separate little factory somewhere else in the West Midlands (it's not like there's a shortage of industrial land) and could've taken a part-share of Powertrain.

[TonyCotton]

Much is said about MG continuing but the issue I don't understand is how you can economically produce the K series when there isn't a "volume" car like the 25 or 45 to slot it into. If this question has already been dealt with, apologies.

[ian senior]

Well, it's all Leonard Lord's fault really. If he had only pursed a sensible early policy of rationalisation, instead of being such a vindictive old bastard and deliberately destroying anything pertaining to Nuffield, we might still have a British motor industry.

[Ray Bell]

Nahh... I'd blame it on the relationship between Armstrong and BMC...

If they hadn't stuck to those crazy lever shock absorbers they might have designed and built decent suspensions (like, for instance, the '56 Oxford and Isis) and then looked at making the cars better to go with it.

[ian senior]

Quote

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Nahh... I'd blame it on the relationship between Armstrong and BMC...

If they hadn't stuck to those crazy lever shock absorbers they might have designed and built decent suspensions (like, for instance, the '56 Oxford and Isis) and then looked at making the cars better to go with it.

Yes. If only the Farina Oxbridge etc cars had been based on Gerald Palmer's excellent ZA Magnette/Wolseley 15/50 rather than the nasty A55....

[RTH]

They put all those different car makers together in one group in 1968 and then shared nothing between them.......in fact did their best to stab each other in the back !

Rather different to VW's current policy !

[BRG]

Quote

Originally posted by RTH
Rather different to VW's current policy!

I wonder? I do not understand VAG's marketing policy. VW seem very keen to build big luxury cars that compete with fellow VAG brand Audi and to build supercars that compete with fellow VAG brands Bugatti, Bentley and Lamborghini (?), whilst Skoda and SEAT both build cars to compete with VW and Audi. It doesn't look completely dissimilar to the mess that was BMC.

[ian senior]

Quote

Originally posted by BRG
I wonder? I do not understand VAG's marketing policy. VW seem very keen to build big luxury cars that compete with fellow VAG brand Audi and to build supercars that compete with fellow VAG brands Bugatti, Bentley and Lamborghini (?), whilst Skoda and SEAT both build cars to compete with VW and Audi. It doesn't look completely dissimilar to the mess that was BMC.

I agree. It seems like a right pig's ear to me, but it's all about marketing and brand perception, and other nebulous things like that. I wonder how many Audi TT owners realise that their pride and joy is not much more than a previous model Skoda Octavia under its oh so cool skin?

[ensign14]

I am still convinced that the VW Phaeton was a mobile test bed for the Bentley engine. And I am betting that in a few years' time the few on the market will be very good deals...

[RTH]

Well VW do at least share components and' know how' across their different brands which is good common sense - the fact that the average person does not even realise is really quite clever......

......As a group they are doing a great deal better than Fiat, who I read in Autocar this week have to pay back a £2BN loan to 6 banks by September otherwise the banks will take possession of the equivalent share holding in the group , weakening other share holders value and undermining the Fiat Auto management. Also they say SAIC in tandem with other Chinese auto makers are set to take a substantial stake in the Italian auto maker at this time.

Meanwhile a delegation from Honda Japan visited Longbridge 10 days ago, it was said, trying to find out if the MG brand could be bought....despite good quality sports cars Honda are disappointed in their lack of breakthrough in global markets and have long admired the MG heritage, its said the NSX was inspired by the concept MG EXE V6 of 1986

We also heard in the last couple of weeks GM have very big debt, things are not that good worldwide for Ford either...........we are now heading in to a poor period for car makers after 5 years of boom which clearly many of then failed to capitalise on ........there are bound to be more casualties, maybe from unexpected quarters .

[MCS]

Quote

Originally posted by RTH
......As a group they are doing a great deal better than Fiat, who I read in Autocar this week have to pay back a £2BN loan to 6 banks by September otherwise the banks will take possession of the equivalent share holding in the group , weakening other share holders value and undermining the Fiat Auto management. Also they say SAIC in tandem with other Chinese auto makers are set to take a substantial stake in the Italian auto maker at this time.

There's plenty of talk in Italy of various parts of Fiat even being sold off. Draw your own (fairly obvious) conclusions as to which bits...

Richard, is "The Money Programme" still on BBC2 ?

Mark

[Twin Window]

Quote

Originally posted by ensign14

I am still convinced that the VW Phaeton was a mobile test bed for the Bentley engine.

We parked next to one near Imola; the first one I'd ever seen!

Considering I'm already a fan of the Passat, how much do you think I liked the Phaeton...?

I really, really want one!

[RTH]

Tonight : Friday on BBC2 "The Money Programme" at 7.00 pm


"ROVER's BILLION POUND BLUNDER" - on for half an hour

[ian senior]

Quote

Originally posted by Twin Window

We parked next to one near Imola; the first one I'd ever seen!

Considering I'm already a fan of the Passat, how much do you think I liked the Phaeton...?

I really, really want one!

I've actually seen a couple of Phaetons on the road. Probably because I live in Milton Keynes, the UK HQ of the VW group....they are big buggers, but so dull.

Seems that the Bentley Phaeton GT (or whatever it' s called) is selling better - seen lots of them. The first choice of premiership footballers?

[RTH]

I thought the programme disappointing, we learned nothing new, 1/2hr was nothing like long enough to cover the subject matter ,as a result a lack of balance made some of it a little misleading.
Obviously money wasting projects like the Le Mans campaign, the SV, cityrover, lack of urgency in producing new models from the word go had scant coverage.
The future had no mention at all, in short it was made really with no real inside information , have to hope for a follow up that will give some guide as to what happens from here onwards.

[MCS]

Yes, it was certainly disappointing Richard.

No surprise that the Phoenix Four declined any involvement or comment either, other than the re-hash of their statement regarding an additional five years of employment for (some of) the workforce...

And that was it really, simply a collection of the salient facts which we already knew.

To be honest, probably a waste of half an hour - might watch next week's programme on Tesco though purely to see if they can actually provide some insight!

Mark

[petefenelon]

Quote

Originally posted by ian senior

Seems that the Bentley Phaeton GT (or whatever it' s called) is selling better - seen lots of them. The first choice of premiership footballers?

There's a few Continental GTs around Yorkshire -- I think Guy Smith got one as a present for winning Le Mans, but apart from that I've seen at least three semi-regularly round York; there are usually also at least a couple at BTCC meetings too which implies to me that some of the drivers like a bit more than 2-litre power for their road cars. (I think Jason Plato has one; not sure who else).

[RTH]

Sunday's financial mail reports the DTI will announce a full enquiry this week, this follows revelations that creditor's claims now stand at £1.4BN.

" If the enquiry finds that the 4 businessmen who took over Rover 5 years ago were knowingly trading while it was insolvent, they face being stripped of directorships and having all their assets seized ".

As the Labour government was instrumental in brokering this deal in 2000 the T&G union are to pressure Trade and Industry secretary Alan Johnson (yes it has changed in the course of this thread ) to make the report public, something he appears reluctant to do.

[RTH]

BBC Radio 4 Tonight Tuesday at 8.00 pm UK "File on 4 " is about the Rover failure in particular and UK company collapses in general.

[ian senior]

I didn't watch The Money Programme. I expected the worst and it seems as though that's what it was.

Instead I watched a video of Channel 4's Classic British Cars series, which had one programme dedicated to Rover. Pure nostalgia, of course, but it serves as a reminder that the Rover name has not always been tinged with failure. Lovely old P4s - OK, a bit "Auntie" but highly respected, the P6, which opened up a whole new market for executive saloons that the German manufacturers have now made their own, and the amazing gas turbine cars - ultimately a dead end, but fascinating cars in their own right.

An added poignancy was that the programme was narrated by the late and much missed John Peel - another British National Institution.

[RTH]

"AutoExpress" reports this week TVR are a bidder for MG - the brand and the MGTF factory and production line - they would close Blackpool and move TVR production to Longbridge and manufacture both makes of sportscar.

Nicolai Smolensky ,26, a multi-millionaire.and father a Russian Billionaire I believe, presumably could do this, personally I feel the brand might have a better long term future in the hands of Ford or Honda using spare factory capacity at Halewood, Gaydon or Swindon and the design, R&D and parts inventory of a major player. The factory in Birmingham had large amounts of money spent on it in BMW's tenure 1994 - 2000 and despite a 100 year old site is actually a high tech facility. The administrators have kept staff on in the paint shop keeping the system clean and paint fresh , with a restart or move of the equipment in useable condition in mind.PWC will not comment but insiders say TVR is serious.

Meanwhile Freelander petrol production is down to a trickle as suppliers to Powertrain have stopped deliveries until outstanding invoices are met. Next year the Freelander's petrol engine will come from parent Ford.

Agree with you Ian , John Peel was really excellent voiceover for those splendid "Classic Vehicles" series - he is greatly missed.

[RTH]

Another week, another bid for MGR.

'Autocar' : - reports, Krish Bhaskar, head of the motor industry research unit, is the front man for a group of 'Investors' prepared to pay £65M for the remains of the company and bring a further £1.6 BN for new models over 4 years.

After a hibernation period they would bring forward a 75 replacement, an off roader, a new small MG sportscar and an Austin-Healey also possibly 'green versions'.
All these vehicles would be based on Lotus inspired 'Variable Vehicle Architecture platform '.
PWC remain sceptical until they see positive evidence of the money.
He also claims to have a plan including SAIC !

[ian senior]

Quote

Originally posted by RTH
Another week, another bid for MGR.

'Autocar' : - reports, Krish Bhaskar, head of the motor industry research unit, is the front man for a group of 'Investors' prepared to pay £65M for the remains of the company and bring a further £1.6 BN for new models over 4 years.

After a hibernation period they would bring forward a 75 replacement, an off roader, a new small MG sportscar and an Austin-Healey also possibly 'green versions'.
All these vehicles would be based on Lotus inspired 'Variable Vehicle Architecture platform '.
PWC remain sceptical until they see positive evidence of the money.
He also claims to have a plan including SAIC !

Have a look at www.mg-rover.org for more on this bid, which is being treated with a healthy dose of cynicism. Despite claiming to be awash with money, they are asking individuals to put up £500 each.... reminds me all too much of those e-mails you get from Africans who are wanting to share their fortunes with you, if only you provide your bank account details.

[RTH]

It does indeed have that feel about it, this is all in such a mire it could go on like this for months.

I do believe Mr Clarkson had a role in all this, he has a quite disproportunate influence over the british car buying public, and never missed an opportunity to denegrate this company to get a cheap laugh in the studio audience. I think this did great harm to sales and was quite unjustified.

It is beyond me why people seem to think it is clever to rubbish British made goods in favour of anything foreign - no matter how poor it actually is !

[ian senior]

Quote

Originally posted by RTH
It is beyond me why people seem to think it is clever to rubbish British made goods in favour of anything foreign - no matter how poor it actually is !

I guess (and it is a guess - I'm not a qualified social historian) this kind of thing started in the 1970s. The optimism and positive outlook of the 60s had by that time turned into cynicism and disappointment. Those of a radical and/or progressive persuasion were dismayed that the social changes, and prevailing attitudes, of the previous decade hadn't gone far enough or been continued. People of a more traditional mindset hadn't like these changes and thought that Britain wasn't what it used to be. Both sets of people were united in rubbishing Britain and British goods at every opportunity, albeit for different reasons. As usual, a lot of this stuff was fired by the media.

Such attitudes probably explain why British people started buying Volvos and Datsuns rather than Rovers and Austins, because preceived wisdom was that British cars simply were no good any more.

[RTH]

Creditors meeting this morning at the factory with the administrators.

It's expected they will be told the company has debts of £1.4 BN and assets of £85M so creditors may expect to receive just 5 pence in the pound or less of what they are owed.

We may also hear this morning who has bought the MG brand.

10,000 new cars parked on Oxfordshire runways are to be released to dealers for sale by Capital Bank who claim control over them, demand is said to be very strong and discounts are expected to be somewhat less than many expected, its said people have few worries about buying without a factory warranty , contrary to popular myth the cars are good quality and very reliable, story from AutoExpress.

[Twin Window]

Is this the Hinton & Senior Show?!

(Sorry!)

Fingers crossed for a positive outcome, if that's at all possible under the circumstances...

[ian senior]

Quote

Originally posted by Twin Window
Is this the Hinton & Senior Show?!

(Sorry!)

Fingers crossed for a positive outcome, if that's at all possible under the circumstances...

We regard it as our mission to inform the uninformed.

Fair point though- perhaps it is a bit one sided, and not a lot to do with motor sport either. Trouble is, we care.

[Twin Window]

My comment was purely tongue-in-cheek!

And you're quite right to care...

[Catalina Park]

Thanks for the updates guys.

The story in Australia....

On Monday there is an auction of unsold MG/Rover cars in Sydney. The importers went belly-up when the factory closed.

[ian senior]

Yet another TV programme on this subject next week - in fact, two of 'em.

Both editions of "Tonight with Trevor McDoughnut", Monday and Friday, will be centred on the MG Rover situation - another attempt (probably forlorn) to inject some analysis. Presented by Quentin Willson. Hmm.

This programme doesn't have an outstanding record in serious TV investigative journalism, so I'm not holding out much hope for it, but it's on anyway....

[ensign14]

Quote

Originally posted by ian senior
"Tonight with Trevor McDoughnut"

This is what they want...

[RTH]

This is a very big deal in terms of the history of the British Motor Industry and I like to think here we can record the blow by blow events as they unfold on a daily basis , as a record for the future.

My hopes now are that MG will finally go to a good home , to make us some more great and most importantly affordable road going sports cars, and perhaps one day a return to La sarthe with a factory team of GT sports cars with a genuine shot at a victory ( I really do wish the ACO would abandon prototypes and run an all road car based event )

Thanks for the tip Ian, I shall certainly be watching, as you say sadly this series is little more than populist sound bites, but lets hope we at least learn something new.

What would Tazio Nuvolari have done in 1933 at the TT without an MG K3 ? ..........and MG won the first race it ever entered in 1927 with a 14/28 in Buenos Aires , Richard Seaman in a F-Magna in 1932, MG was a stalwart at Brooklands , all the record breaking, MGAs winning the team prize at Le Mans in 1955, Alan Fosters ZB winning the 1600cc saloon car championship in 1958 , '62 Monte winning both the 1 litre and 2 litre GT classes, The MG 6R4 rally car....... plus a whole lot more as well

[ian senior]

There's a press conference convened by PWC, taking place at the moment. Some kind souls at www.mg-rover.co.org are giving an in-time update on that site. If you care to look, you will see the scene unfold.

Bu the latest is that there are 3 bids to take over the business which meet PWC's requirements, and 6 others to take over part of the business. Powertrain are to recommence limited production. The Longbridge plant is to be kept mothballed (in the hope that production may start again in some form). And - newspapers take note - PWC have found NO, repeat, NO, financial irregularities.

[RTH]

'Autocar' reports SAIC are to fight through the courts to establish ownership of the rights to 25, 75, and the K series engine and are to work with Ricardo to update and establish production of the cars in China .
Ricardo are also to look at finishing the RDX60 medium car project SAIC says it also has the rights to.

Meanwhile Iran is still in the frame to make the cars for their market !

[RTH]

Tonight Monday ITV 1 in the UK at 8.00 pm "Why Rover Crashed", - part 1 , conclude same time Friday with part 2 by Quentin Willson

[275 GTB-4]

Quote

Originally posted by Catalina Park
Thanks for the updates guys.

The story in Australia....

On Monday there is an auction of unsold MG/Rover cars in Sydney. The importers went belly-up when the factory closed.

Morris..haven't heard how it went but I know there were a number of nervous people because the website was not responding and bidders had been asked to provide 5000 Aussie Pesos to sort out the wheat from the chaff....

[Mallory Dan]

Quote

Originally posted by RTH
Tonight Monday ITV 1 in the UK at 8.00 pm "Why Rover Crashed", - part 1 , conclude same time Friday with part 2 by Quentin Willson

Any thoughts on the prog chaps, though I know Part 2 is on this Friday.

On the Racing front, I thought it was typically sensationalist, giving the impression that MG Rover built a brand new car, turned-up and attempted to win Le Mans straightaway. From what I know they merely badged an existing LMP2 car, and had an established team run the thing. It was hardly an original MGR design/effort therefore, and the failure not really blamable on the management.

I concede though that MGR should probably have never been there in the first place, given the dodgy finances and lack of relevance of the LM entries to their road cars.

The more we see of how the Towers 5 ran it, the more amazing it appears.

[BRG]

I just saw the start of the programme and it was clear that the Le Mans effort was going to be bashed. Then Mark Blundell popped up briefly as a pundit (what does an ex-racing driver know about the business of manufacturing road cars?) and I realised that it was not going to be a serious production, so I changed channels.

The subject definitely deserves a proper TV programme but it isn't going to made by ITV.

[ian senior]

Quote

Originally posted by BRG
IThe subject definitely deserves a proper TV programme but it isn't going to made by ITV.

It does, but it should be made after all the shouting has finished. Anything made at the moment is likely to be not much more than what is already in the public domain, along with a healthy dose of cynical speculation and conjecture.

Some of the latest news is that the Chinese own the IP rights to the MG TF, even though they never had much interest in making sports cars. Sold to them as part of one of the many fire sales in the last days of MGR. It just seems to get worse.

[RTH]

Well that's bad news Ian , I have not heard that.

Actually I thought the first part of the programme was more interesting than I had been expecting.
What we got in the main was first hand accounts of what was going on by the people working inside the factory, particually Peter Stevens, who I have a great deal of time for.

Clearly , the management were way out of their depth from day one and behaved as if they were a big motor manufacturer making large profits - nothing of course was futher from the truth. £17 M was spent on the Le Mans campaign much of that it seems on the hospitality and paddock hotel.

I was at both the 24 hr races they contested and know Hugh Chamberlain who lives in the next village to me. The Lola chassis was actually very good from the word go , the AER turbo engine was at first underpowered then this was improved but reliability just wasn't there to maintain pace for the whole race. Same old thing really - you need a lot of testing then you have to permanently cure all the faults that throws up - nowadays this of course with prototypes is frighteningly costly..........of course what they should have been doing with the precious time , money and resources was designing and developing a new mid range car or perhaps more realistically adopting the Alchemy plan to cut the factory space, workforce down to 2500 and concentrate on just a 2 or 3 model MG range only and develope new cars using advanced methods of lightweight construction, to build a sustainable realistic future.

Back in 2000 Martin Birraine was named as one of the Phoenix consortium, hence of course the Lola connection - yet almost ever since I have not heard his name mentioned again.

As was said in the film I think public goodwill and support died the day the directors pension provisions in the millions was made known and this was the point car sales stepped off a cliff. In an instant in the public perception they went from heroes to fat cats and suddenly no body cared anymore, which was a tragedy.

Auto Express reports today administrators say all assets are to be sold within 3 months - by whatever means, more than 600 have expressed interest , 9 have cleared the financial hurdles.

Where we go from here is almost impossible to predict, but it will be fascinating to see it unfold .

[ensign14]

Quote

Originally posted by RTH
Clearly , the management were way out of their depth from day one and behaved as if they were a big motor manufacturer making large profits - nothing of course was futher from the truth. £17 M was spent on the Le Mans campaign much of that it seems on the hospitality and paddock hotel.

And yet pro rata they did better than the gigantic car makers. Unfortunately they did not have a safety net of years of profit.

Quote

Originally posted by RTH
As was said in the film I think public goodwill and support died the day the directors pension provisions in the millions was made known and this was the point car sales stepped off a cliff. In an instant in the public perception they went from heroes to fat cats and suddenly no body cared anymore, which was a tragedy.

And that was thanks to journalists exploiting the fact that the Great Unwashed does not know how pensions operate. Massive headline figures that bore no relation to how things pan out in reality.

[RTH]

Good enough excuse to show these pictures I took at the back of the MG pits at Le Mans in 2002

Shows 2 of the MG transporters and the MG promotional girls.......no that little white caravan is not the team motorhome, - it was the girls make up room.

[petefenelon]

Quote

Originally posted by RTH
Good enough excuse to show these pictures I took at the back of the MG pits at Le Mans in 2002

Shows 2 of the MG transporters and the MG promotional girls.......no that little white caravan is not the team motorhome, - it was the girls make up room.

Something good came of the MG sports car programme - well, a couple of good things actually.

The Dyson MGs are still doing damn well in the ALMS (and the new Lola is very much son-of-EX.257), and I got a never-worn MG team-issue coat on Ebay for 30 quid last winter.;) I am not normally one for stuff with bright colours or logos on, but you have to chortle at the big "Hot Wheels" logo embroidered on the back and the bright lime green hi-vis bits ;) Good warm waterproof coat too, you'd pay a bomb for it normally!

pete

[ggnagy]

What really confuses me is why they put so much focus on the US market without actually entering it. They sold the EX257 to 3 ALMS teams, almost got rebadged judds into CART, and bought the TransAm winning Qvale (nee DeTomasso) Mangusta. We're they STILL that afraid of the remnants of HAMBRO?

How dang hard could it have been to fit an OBDII computer to the K series?
How dang hard could it have been to fit ANOTHER mini engine into a MG?

[RTH]

Worth remembering there are 3 decendents of these cars in this weekends LM 24hrs
The RML car no,. 25 with a MG badged Judd V8 and 2 four cylinder turbo cars Lola AERs intersport no.32 and Chamberlain - Synergy no. 39
The RML car is favourite for the LMP 2 class

Live Radio Le Mans coverage from now to after the race via www.autosport.com free to all just follow the links and you can listen while reading this forum

Don't forget 16 hrs live TV coverage on Eurosport and especially the historic Legends race live on saturday morning

[Mallory Dan]

I'd thought the cars called MGs were only badged Lolas, and so, presumably, the cars would ahve existed over here and in ALMS even if MG had never got themselves involved in the whole thing, which they probably shouldn't have done.