1796 replies to this topic

[Lemnpiper]

HistoricMustang, on Oct 19 2012, 06:23, said:

Comments would be appreciated about the intake/vent which appears in this photograph just to the right of Dave. Have not seen this before.

Thanks,
Henry



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Henry

Perhaps when Thompson ended up opening up the wheel wells he found adding that vent helped with the airflow under the car.

And while this thread doesnt get the action it once did , i would feel closing this thread would not be in the berst interest of the forum



paul

[Catalina Park]

Michael Ferner, on Oct 20 2012, 21:19, said:

Well, it's obvious that it was a secret fuel filler for the hidden right-hand fuel tank....

I thought it was something to do with the third wheel steering.

[HistoricMustang]

Thanks Paul,

Have not seen the vent/intake in other photographs which tells me it was a last minute addition...............for some, as of yet, unknown reason.

And, for others.

In the words of Katherine Anne Porter “The past is never where you think you left it.”

Henry

[Henri Greuter]

HistoricMustang, on Oct 19 2012, 11:23, said:

Comments would be appreciated about the intake/vent which appears in this photograph just to the right of Dave. Have not seen this before.

Thanks,
Henry



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Makes me think about a scoop that directs air to the engine or an engine part, oil cooler or so?
Anyawy, that might mean that some kind of duct may run through the pod and if so that even more approves that there was no fuel tank on that side of the car.


Addition made 3 hrs later.

it has been reported that the Ford engines got more hot when running on gasoline than on Methanol. Perhaps the scoop was added to provide extra cooling to a critical engine part or at leaset engine realted and it being done for tace day since that was the first time (other then carb day) that the need for it was diagnosed? (because of Carb day experiences?)





henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 22 October 2012 - 14:14.

[TomSlick57]

Michael Ferner, on Oct 19 2012, 12:32, said:

Henry,

With all due respect, but this very same picture has been posted over and over again on this thread, and if I'm not very much mistaken you yourself have commented on it extensively, like on all other things discussed on this thread. Do you have a problem with amnesia?

And Stuart (Twin WIndow), please please PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD!!!!

Why should they close this thread? if you don't like reading it why do you visit?

[Lemnpiper]

TomSlick57, on Nov 15 2012, 22:04, said:

Why should they close this thread? if you don't like reading it why do you visit?

Plus in a little over 18 months we will be celebrating ( i know a poor choice of a word) the 50th anniversary of the 1964 race.

This thread (if you read it from post #1) has to be the most informative thread about what happened in regards to the run up to that race , and about the crash itself .

For that reason alone this thread should remain open , even though the flow of new information is rather lacking at the present time.You just never know when someone that hasnt read it will have insight not yet posted , and want to post that info.Since i have no doubt the 1964 will be dicussed when it;s 50th anniversary occurs



paul

Edited by Lemnpiper, 19 November 2012 - 03:49.

[TomSlick57]

Edited by TomSlick57, 10 December 2012 - 21:42.

[Henri Greuter]

A related question.

 

In the thread there has been talk about the Marathon Oil poster featuring Eddie Sach's Shrike car and how he was surrounded by fuel. Is there anybody out here who has access to a print of this advertisemen and can verify if the ad mentions a volume of fuel that the car contained and if so, what figure was given?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Henri

[B Squared]

Henri Greuter, on 20 Aug 2013 - 17:23, said:

A related question.

 

In the thread there has been talk about the Marathon Oil poster featuring Eddie Sach's Shrike car and how he was surrounded by fuel. Is there anybody out here who has access to a print of this advertisemen and can verify if the ad mentions a volume of fuel that the car contained and if so, what figure was given?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Henri

I've got a copy at home Henri. I'll look when I get home to confirm if it mentions gallons or only the number of tanks onboard.

[B Squared]

Henri - the Marathon ad in the Indy newspaper states eight separate fuel tanks carrying 54 total gallons.

[Henri Greuter]

B Squared, on 21 Aug 2013 - 08:04, said:

Henri - the Marathon ad in the Indy newspaper states eight separate fuel tanks carrying 54 total gallons.

 

 

I'll be darned.....

 

So that once again makes clear that also in the case of the Shrike, the car is brandmarked with telling it to be a up to 100 gallons of fuel tank car capaicty while the truth being told already, before the incident itself and ignored.

And even more of how much facts have been ignored in the aftermath and people telling differently for whatever reason being believed to make up the story.

 

Incredible.

 

Ther is still a lot to do to correct history on this accident.

I recently found a 2012 released book describing details of the story but also telling both cars to have way more fuel on board than they had. I contacted the writer and made him aware of this thread as well as the 8W websiet I wrote, based on the discoveries in this thread.

The man ansered me that he knew what needed to be corrected in the reprint of the book and that he was impressed with the facts uncovered and ignored over the years.

 

 

Thank you very much Brian! I think that you have revealed yet another case and example of ignorance within this sad story. Maybe not so much related with the Thompson cars themselve but for sure within the general opinions on the cars involved in the tragedy.

 

 

henri

[HistoricMustang]

Going on 50 years and new revelations still coming forth.

 

One of our fellow members has forwarded me a copy of the 1964 Indy program and I look forward to discovering from front to back. 

 

Henry

[B Squared]

From page 55 of the June 22, 1964 Issue of Sports Illustrated in an article by Kenneth Rudeen titled "After the Indianapolis Fire: an argument." This illustration shows and states that car carried 45-gallon tank.

 

[HistoricMustang]

For those that may have an interest.

 

http://www.amazon.co...d/dp/1250017777

[Emery0323]

HistoricMustang, on 02 Nov 2013 - 20:44, said:

For those that may have an interest.

 

http://www.amazon.co...d/dp/1250017777

Another grim 50th anniversary. There's a lot of commemorations of the 50th anniversary of the JFK assassination in the US these days, it looks like the 1964 Indy disaster will get a 50th anniversary book in about 6 months.

 

Here is the publisher's link:

http://us.macmillan....knoon/ArtGarner

Edited by Emery0323, 03 November 2013 - 06:24.

[RA Historian]

Hope that it is worthwhile and not just another piece of sensationalism that will appeal to the ghoulish rather than the serious fan.

[HistoricMustang]

Perhaps another reason why the thread should be kept open.  This will, once and for all, end conversation on how many fuel tanks and how much fuel was carried.

 

Photo from The Ford Motor Company collection for public viewing.

 

Henry

 

[HistoricMustang]

All three cars together.  Not sure if this is the Thompson shop or Indy garage area so some help needed to identify location. 

 

Photograph from the Ford Motor Company collection for public viewing.

 

Henry

 

 

[HistoricMustang]

This appears to be starting grid.................intake vent to drivers right has been added to car.

 

Photo from the Ford Motor Company collection for public viewing.

 

Henry

 

 

[Henri Greuter]

HistoricMustang, on 15 Nov 2013 - 18:15, said:

All three cars together.  Not sure if this is the Thompson shop or Indy garage area so some help needed to identify location. 

 

Photograph from the Ford Motor Company collection for public viewing.

 

Henry

 

 

 

Henry,

 

This photo is taken at the Speedway at Gasoline Alley, The wooden barn doors are the giveaway since every die-hard Indyfan of that era knows them and even nowadays these doors are highly collectable items if you can find them. There are some around, I know.

 

I am not gonna pin down the others as also being Gasoline Alley but if these photos come from the same source (photographer who made them that is) good chance they are.

 

I know there still will be people proclaiming that this could be a practice period picture and modifications taken place later on in the month a possibility but for me, this confirms pretty much for more than 99% what we had found out already all together in this thread

 

 

Henri

[HistoricMustang]

The beginning of fender modifications.  Using the trusty hacksaw...............

 

Photo from the Ford Motor Company collection for public viewing.

 

Henry 

 

 

[B Squared]

HistoricMustang, on 15 Nov 2013 - 18:22, said:

Is that John Mecom Jr. looking away from the car and is next to Dave?

Thanks for sharing the photos Henry.

Edited by B Squared, 15 November 2013 - 18:38.

[HistoricMustang]

Race car prep has changed quite a bit over the last 50 years.

 

Photo from the Ford Motor Company collection for public viewing.

 

Henry 

 

 

[HistoricMustang]

B Squared, on 15 Nov 2013 - 18:37, said:

Is that John Mecom Jr. looking away from the car and is next to Dave?

Thanks for sharing the photos Henry.

Brian, lets never give up re-searching!  It is a rewarding joy when photographs such as these turn up..........................there must be more out there somewhere.

 

These have been sent to me by a very interested third party.

 

Henry 

[HistoricMustang]

The Gregory car after mishap.

 

Photo from the Ford Motor Company collection for public viewing.

 

Henry 

 

 

[Seppi_0_917PA]

HistoricMustang, on 15 Nov 2013 - 18:47, said:

Brian, lets never give up re-searching!  It is a rewarding joy when photographs such as these turn up..........................there must be more out there somewhere.

 

These have been sent to me by a very interested third party.

 

Henry 

These photos are from the Dave Friedman collection on flickr: http://www.flickr.co...57637629370626/

1,580 photos from 1964 Indy in random sequence.
 

[Henri Greuter]

Seppi_0_917PA, on 15 Nov 2013 - 19:57, said:

These photos are from the Dave Friedman collection on flickr: http://www.flickr.co...57637629370626/

1,580 photos from 1964 Indy in random sequence.
 

 

And pics from the March '64 Spring test session included as well by the way.....

 

Stunning to see some pics of the MT cars at speed and then see them up so high in the air....

 

 

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 15 November 2013 - 21:29.

[HistoricMustang]

Henri,

Not exactly sure at which part of the suspension tuning this photo was taken.

 

Henry

 

 

[HistoricMustang]

Great photograph of the rear suspension area.

 

Henry 

 

 

[HistoricMustang]

And, the front suspension area:

 

Henry 

 

 

[Henri Greuter]

May 2014,

 

By now it is almost 50 years ago.

 

I have understood that `black noon` the book by Art Garner about the 1964 race will be released any day.

Hopefully the people who have participated and contributed to this thread with actual facts, clues and leads to facts will find out how many things we gathered over here were correct.

I must admit that I am curious.

 

Henri

[Collombin]

Henri Greuter, on 05 May 2014 - 09:12, said:

Hopefully the people who have participated and contributed to this thread with actual facts, clues and leads to facts will find out how many things we gathered over here were correct.

Let's wait and see what the book is like before granting it the status of definitive account!

As far as I'm concerned, unless it contains some startling new revelations about the accident, then I hope the book's focus is much more about telling the story of the whole 1964 event, one of the most interesting 500s for a multitude of reasons. The online preview does seem very promising in this regard, so fingers crossed.

[Seppi_0_917PA]

Review of Black Noon on Racer: http://www.racer.com...ed-the-indy-500



On the wall of the Mickey Thompson garage, Indy 1964:


Dave Friedman collection, The Henry Ford Museum

Edited by Seppi_0_917PA, 07 May 2014 - 03:15.

[R.W. Mackenzie]

Not really a review of Black Noon. Mainly just a witness's recollection of that tragic race.

 

Bob Mackenzie

[Emery0323]

R.W. Mackenzie, on 07 May 2014 - 20:58, said:

Not really a review of Black Noon. Mainly just a witness's recollection of that tragic race.

 

Bob Mackenzie

Agreed!   It would be interesting to see a critique of the book by a knowledgeable reviewer - Some of the contributors to this discussion thread would be good candidates!

[Lemnpiper]

  Hi All,

 

 

   Picked up a copy today and at this point I am up to the point where 1st day qualifying is being done.

 

   I must say for those who never had the chance to know about all the work that goes into creating and preparing a car to run the 500  the 1st half of the book lays it out in great detail  , and I would suggest no matter the era of Indy car you enjoy   , this is the book to establish a baseline on those efforts the teams  make each year  , even to this day.

   And those that have had the fortune to have worked at any point on the preparation of a car to race   I am most curious to see if it shows the pre race  planning in great  detail  based on their experiences.

 

  I never realized just  how much "change" was goin on but the book really does a great job at what conflicts the team and drivers were facing  after the introduction of  a viable rear engine racer by Jack Brabham in 1961.

 

  Overall what I have read so far is very well researched  and really the books does an excellent  job at what the drivers and teams were goin thru .

 

 

     Hopefully the rest of the book holds up as well.

 

 

    Paul

[Henri Greuter]

R.W. Mackenzie, on 07 May 2014 - 20:58, said:

Not really a review of Black Noon. Mainly just a witness's recollection of that tragic race.

 

Bob Mackenzie

 

 

To be honest, I felt the same. As if he got a free review copy and thus must publish something about it but instead of talking about the book, talk about his own experiences about the subject itself.

I still can't make uk my mind if he rates the book as positive or that it was a manner for him to avoid to have to tell negative things about it since he feels negative about it.

I had a similar thing happen with one of the books I co-worked on but eventually had to come to the conclusion that it was likely something personal between that reviewer and me and that it was his manner to avoid burn me off in public while denying be any positive comments should he have felt those to be in place.

This riview on "Black noon" reminds me a bit about what happened to me back then.

 

Henri

[Lemnpiper]

 Hi all ,

 

 

  Ok having  finished my 1st reading of the book I can say it is well written  ,and that it showed a very good effort on Mr Garner's part to interview surviving drivers  ,mechanics  , and family members of those not still alive.

 

   It goes into great detail explaining  what transpired in the run up to the 1964 race  , and how new innovations in the 3 years prior to 1964 had a massive influence on what happened in 1964. And in the epilogue how  the events of 1964 may have resulted in series of races from 1965 onward that created a new "golden age" for the Indy 500.

 

  Speaking of goin into detail  , while many here live and breathe racing much more than the casual fan , I do feel even the casual fan as they read the book wont get  lost in  some of the technical aspects discussed in the book in regards to what the teams and drivers were facing during the changes in the cars during this timeframe.

 

   At this time i'll let other post what they think of the book  rather than go into great detail  now

 

 

   If you want a great inside look at this era of the Indy 500 I recommend this book would make a great addition to your library.

 

   If you any specific questions  about the book , i'll be happy to discuss it here or on any thread  on the forum.

 

 

 

 

   Paul

[Collombin]

Page 23 doesn't appear to contain any factual errors whatsoever.

[Collombin]

E.B., on 10 May 2014 - 16:00, said:

Page 23 doesn't appear to contain any factual errors whatsoever.

Having now finished reading Black Noon, it is only fair to elaborate on the comment above (written whilst at the end of chapter 3) as well as giving my take on the book as a whole.

Let’s get the negative out of the way first. I don’t know exactly how many factual errors are contained within the first 40 pages of this book, but I stopped counting after the 15th (not to mention a few other eyebrow raisers).

Of course, it is nigh on impossible to produce a 300+ page work such as this without the odd error or two creeping in, and looking on the bright side you could argue that if you spot the mistakes then they don’t do any harm! Several of the errors are very definitely in the howler category, lit up like neon lights. The trouble is, with so many appearing so early on in proceedings, there is a very real danger of losing confidence in anything the rest of the book has to say.

That would be a shame, because once the story gets beyond these early scene setting chapters and into the core story, it soon becomes apparent that this is in fact a very well researched book indeed. This shines through as the author gets into his comfort zone and into the meat of the story that he set out to tell – the month of May at Indianapolis 50 years ago, the story of dinosaur v funny car, methanol v gasoline, Ford v Offy, USA v furriner, and most importantly the story of two talented young men destined never to see the old guard’s last great hurrah.

The book’s structure is pretty much perfect – Part 1 sets the scene, opening proceedings at the previous year’s race and introducing all the key players. Part 2 is devoted to a day by day walkthrough of the month of May, occasionally veering off to discuss a particular subplot of interest at the point most appropriate. Part 3 is the full story of Saturday 30th May 1964, and the final part covers the aftermath of the event.

It’s as well written as it is researched. It covers the engineering issues and rivalries in depth, without ever getting bogged down in complex technical minutiae. It creates a wonderful sense of “being there”, without being derailed into descriptions of the leaves on the trees or the smell of the candy. You feel a palpable build-up of tension and excitement as Pole Day approaches, and again for Bump Day, and of course for raceday itself, despite being fully aware in advance of everything that’s going to happen. The worst horrors of what happened on lap 2 are not shied away from, but are not overly dwelt upon either. The aftermath brings a simple tear to the eye, but the writing never descends into mawkishness. The overall pacing is spot on too.

The conclusions about the accident? Well, I have no idea whether they are correct or not. But they seem to make perfect sense to me. And to those who choose to disagree with them, I genuinely don’t think that their enjoyment of the story will be spoiled. There is no detailed forensic analysis to be found here, just a well-reasoned opinion based on a substantial amount of excellent research. Which is exactly how it should be. This is no 300 page crash report. Yet again the perfect balance has been found.

So, overall, the book has to be a must buy. It may well start like Eldon Palmer, but once you get beyond that, the rest of the book is a triumph in pretty much every way.

The author gets an A+ from me. His proofreaders? Stay behind after class, please.

[RA Historian]

E.B., on 14 May 2014 - 14:59, said:

 It may well start like Eldon Palmer, but once you get beyond that, the rest of the book is a triumph in pretty much every way.

The author gets an A+ from me. His proofreaders? Stay behind after class, please.

A big thumbs up on a apt, but obscure, reference! I daresay that many will not catch your inference.

[Henri Greuter]

I wonder what the spiritual father of this thread, Historic Mustang has to say about the book.

 

Still waiting for my copy BTW, but that's not strange given the location where I live.

 

Henri

[racinggeek]

RA Historian, on 14 May 2014 - 17:39, said:

A big thumbs up on a apt, but obscure, reference! I daresay that many will not catch your inference.

 

 I'll add a  and  to that.

 

Would also note to E.B's last statement that the author who performed all this research should be held at least equally accountable, if not more so, for the factual howlers. Still thinking we'll probably get a copy of the book. 

[RA Historian]

I agree that it is almost inevitable that even the most closely scrutinized books somehow or other suffer the indignity of a typo or an error of some type slipping through. I know the pain, as I have had the misfortune to have an embarrassing slip or two make it into print in my books. I am finishing a book right now which is a biography, It is co-authored, so I am afraid that there will be some slips that get through, even though I have read and re-read my copy dozens of times.

 

But having said that, every so often a book comes along that is so riddled with errors that one wonders if anyone ever bothered to look at it before it reached the printer. I have purchased three or so books in the last few years that are so bad that they are only good for looking at the pictures; and even then the captions are wrong. No names here, but recent books on Meadowdale, Penske Racing, and racing Corvettes are so bad that one wonders if the author had any idea about his subject.

[Collombin]

RA Historian, on 15 May 2014 - 15:41, said:

only good for looking at the pictures

In Black Noon, what would have been my favourite pic (the very first one in the book) is somewhat spoilt by being reversed......

[RonPohl]

If anyone is heading to Indy airport for pole day or the 500, the 1962 Mickey Thompson Indy car driven by Dan Gurney is on display in the terminal.

[edtheshred]

do you mean eldon "powerslide" palmer   

as ever

ed

[R.W. Mackenzie]

Hey! Cut poor Mr. Palmer some slack. Somebody moved (or removed) his braking marker.

[R.W. Mackenzie]

I just finished reading "Black Noon" today and thoroughly agree with E.B. A+!

 

It was very tastefully done, nothing sensational or ghoulish about it. Very well researched and written. I couldn't put it down and finished it in a couple of days.

 

As far as errors go, I only noticed a couple that I would call glaring. In describing the accident, he said that Branson, Sutton and Rathman were the last to get through before the gap was closed. In actuality, Bob Veith was the last.

 

The other error occurred much earlier and I don't recall what it was. I believe it was a reference related to racing in Europe.

 

But there was so much new to me that I wasn't focusing on errors. And I agree with most of his conclusions. I don't believe Dave spun by getting in too hot because he was already well onto the straight. He was moving over to pass Hansgen and Hansgen moved over to take Hurtubise. The turbulence issue is new to me but it's a credible cause.

 

I'm glad he questioned Johnny Rutherford's account because my analysis that I presented way back in this forum showed that Dave was never on the grass or sliding the car and in fact didn't pass nearly as many cars as a few others before the crash.

 

Hope everybody gets a chance to read it. I'd love to hear more feedback.

 

Bob Mackenzie

[HistoricMustang]

Henri Greuter, on 14 May 2014 - 18:24, said:

I wonder what the spiritual father of this thread, Historic Mustang has to say about the book.

 

Still waiting for my copy BTW, but that's not strange given the location where I live.

 

Henri

Hi Henri. 

 

Received my copy yesterday but will be away from T.V., phone and internet this weekend with family members. 

 

Plan to begin reading on Monday. 

 

Did take a quick glance of the introduction and having followed the development of this book to a certain extent, I am of the belief that it is going to be of interest to a very large amount of motorsport fans as we move into and beyond the 50th anniversary of the tragedy in a few days.

 

I would not at all be surprised if during the introduction or during the broadcast of this years event a somewhat different view of the accident is presented by the media because of this book.

 

Also, I am of the opinion that this thread and the members here at TNF had a major impact on the development of this book.  All should be commended.

 

Henry