160 replies to this topic

[angst]

Quote

Originally posted by Lazarus II

IMO you're close, but not quite. It should read:
Many of Schumachers punishments were never that bad. His crimes were inexusable, he punishments were the real crime, but it made for exciting television and everyone made fantastic amounts of money. So why rock the boat.

Absolutely on the button.

[Orin]

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Originally posted by Ricardo F1

I thought it was highly entertaining ; but Eddie Jordan didn't believe a word he was uttering, so like the above - what was the point in inviting him other than to be a provoker? Good stuff though Jason!

I agree. Jordan was more entertaining than enlightening, I think the programme would have been better with someone a little more truthful (and less gobby!). Still, nice to see the BBC doing these typres of programmes - more please!

[Calorus]

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Originally posted by Option1
Why would I listen to something perjoratively titled "Trial" and the obvious inference that there is something he needs to be tried for? **** that for a joke.

Neil

When I read things like this I think of the phrase "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Then I think of the fanboy's thought bubble where Schumacher starts wildy hurling rocks...

[kar]

Quote

Originally posted by Lazarus II

IMO you're close, but not quite. It should read:
Many of Schumachers punishments were never that bad. His crimes were inexusable, he punishments were the real crime, but it made for exciting television and everyone made fantastic amounts of money. So why rock the boat.

Really? I think he got harshly dealt with in 1994 to be honest. He's copped some fair penalties, and also some stupid ones. Hungary 2006 being the latest in that line.

His 'crimes'? I can think of 2 incidents of his career that are 'inexcusable', Jerez and Monaco. The rest are certainly up for debate, but it's a bit much to suggest in a career as long as his he is ultimately any worse than some of the drivers that proceeded him...

[ensign14]

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Originally posted by kar

His 'crimes'? I can think of 2 incidents of his career that are 'inexcusable', Jerez and Monaco. The rest are certainly up for debate, but it's a bit much to suggest in a career as long as his he is ultimately any worse than some of the drivers that proceeded him...

Name every single other driver who twice tried to win titles by driving rivals off the road.

[Ilaya]

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Originally posted by ensign14

Name every single other driver who twice tried to win titles by driving rivals off the road.

Prost, Senna, Piquet for starters, pushing rivals off has been very common practice and they all did it in order to try and win a title or race.

[selespeed]

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Originally posted by Ilaya


Prost, Senna, Piquet for starters, pushing rivals off has been very common practice and they all did it in order to try and win a title or race.

can you please name the ocasion when nelson piquet pushed a rival of the road????

[Ilaya]

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Originally posted by selespeed



can you please name the ocasion when nelson piquet pushed a rival of the road????

Do you really believe that in his whole career Piquet never ever pushed anyone off the road, I am sure that when you ask him and he would acknowldge that he did so.
You donot become multiple World Champion without a push and a shove (inadvertedly or not) get real dude.

[selespeed]

i thought you were talking out of your ass.
above post confirms it.

[Peri_Piket]

Quote

Originally posted by Ilaya


Do you really believe that in his whole career Piquet never ever pushed anyone off the road, I am sure that when you ask him and he would acknowldge that he did so.
You donot become multiple World Champion without a push and a shove (inadvertedly or not) get real dude.

That's a big bull.
You know NOTHING about F1.

Nelson never did such thing.
You're a children of Michael Schumacher, thinking that it is only natural to do these things on track.

Nelson was a victim of Alan Jones contesting the final race of a WDC, AJ crashed NP.
Nelson was a victim of Alain Prost contesting one of the final races of season in Mexico when AP hit him from behind at the begin of the race.
Nelson was a victim of Patrick Head when Frank had his accident and PH helped Mansell, going against the sportmanship and the contract that guarantted him #1 status.

Some people work hard on car development and set-up to get a racing advantage.
Some people just crack under pressure or deliberately play dirty to win at all costs.
And some people says bull at will, forgeting that some of us, forumers, eye-witnessed the career of those magnificent drivers.

[Lifew12]

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Originally posted by Jordan191


and it was complete garbage , given the precedents.

Not quite - it set a precedent that, admittedly, should have been set many years before.

[Jordan191]

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Originally posted by ensign14

Name every single other driver who twice tried to win titles by driving rivals off the road.

I haven't seen *any* yet.

You're simply a product of the myth that Adelaide was deliberate.

[Limits]

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Originally posted by Jordan191
You're simply a product of the myth that Adelaide was deliberate.

I talked to Eddie about that and he said Schumi recieved a FAX going into that corner and it tangled with the pedals and the steering wheel. Really freak incident.

[Jordan191]

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Originally posted by Limits

I talked to Eddie about that and he said Schumi recieved a FAX going into that corner and it tangled with the pedals and the steering wheel. Really freak incident.

I talked to Miss Cleo . She said the rest of you are fakes.

[ensign14]

Quote

Originally posted by Jordan191

You're simply a product of the myth that Adelaide was deliberate.

Oh, so it was completely accidental that MS looked to his right and saw a car there, realized that he was out and about to lose the world title, but then mysteriously careened straight into it.

[Jordan191]

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Originally posted by ensign14
Oh, so it was completely accidental that MS looked to his right and saw a car there, realized that he was out and about to lose the world title, but then mysteriously careened straight into it.

I don't know the answer to your loaded question any more than you do. The difference is, I acknowledge the fact that I don't.

[Ricardo F1]

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Originally posted by Ilaya

You donot become multiple World Champion without a push and a shove (inadvertedly or not) get real dude.

Mika Hakkinen might argue that.

[Limits]

Kimi has done a fair bit of pushing and shoving, but he is not a champion yet. A double halfly so.

[Ilaya]

Quote

Originally posted by Peri_Piket

That's a big bull.
Nelson never did such thing.

Nelson was a victim of Alan Jones...............
Nelson was a victim of Alain Prost...................
Nelson was a victim of Patrick Head.....................

No it's not a big bull but a big dog you have there in your avatar but anyway.

Maybe you should just pull your big brasilian head out of your brasilian *ss and realize that Nelson was a very competitive racer just like the rest of those champions and did his fair share of pushing and shoving too, comes with the territory.

Nothing wrong with that, probably not as blatant and premeditated as Prost, Senna or Michael but trust me or ask him, he wouldn't have achieved what he did achieve by not being ruthless on track from time to time.

And to the pathetic lines of Nelson was a victim of.................... well I think Nelson would be ashamed of any fan of his that thinks that he was a victim of any of those guys.

Grow a thicker skin dude.

[Peri_Piket]

Quote

Originally posted by Ilaya


No it's not a big bull but a big dog you have there in your avatar but anyway.

Maybe you should just pull your big brasilian head out of your brasilian *ss and realize that Nelson was a very competitive racer just like the rest of those champions and did his fair share of pushing and shoving too, comes with the territory.

Nothing wrong with that, probably not as blatant and premeditated as Prost, Senna or Michael but trust me or ask him, he wouldn't have achieved what he did achieve by not being ruthless on track from time to time.

And to the pathetic lines of Nelson was a victim of.................... well I think Nelson would be ashamed of any fan of his that thinks that he was a victim of any of those guys.

Grow a thicker skin dude.

You just keep post more bull to justify your first bull.

When did Piquet push another racer off road?
The same to Mika.

Otherwise confess you're ignorant.

[Ilaya]

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Originally posted by Peri_Piket

You just keep post more bull to justify your first bull.

When did Piquet push another racer off road?
The same to Mika.

Otherwise confess you're ignorant.

It's not a bull it's a dog Peri, but anyway read carefully and throw away the Piquet tainted glasses, he wasn't a saint and he surely wasn't a victim and maybe you should leave the Mika part to Ricardo.

[Spunout]

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Originally posted by ensign14
Oh, so it was completely accidental that MS looked to his right and saw a car there, realized that he was out and about to lose the world title, but then mysteriously careened straight into it.

And as Keke Rosberg pointed out, Schumi turned twice to hit JV.

[Peri_Piket]

Quote

Originally posted by Ilaya


It's not a bull it's a dog Peri, but anyway read carefully and throw away the Piquet tainted glasses, he wasn't a saint and he surely wasn't a victim and maybe you should leave the Mika part to Ricardo.

Still not a single evidence to support your statement. Your pathetic. No manhood to admitt you're wrong.

About Mika, don't need anyone's help bcs I've followed his career since BF3 days of West Surrey Racing.

[Ricardo F1]

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Originally posted by Ilaya


It's not a bull it's a dog Peri, but anyway read carefully and throw away the Piquet tainted glasses, he wasn't a saint and he surely wasn't a victim and maybe you should leave the Mika part to Ricardo.

OK. So when did Mika push someone off the road?

[Jordan191]

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Originally posted by Ricardo F1

OK. So when did Mika push someone off the road?

Silverstone , followed by Hockenheim 1994 followed by a 1 race ban

[Limits]

Quote

Originally posted by Jordan191


Silverstone , followed by Hockenheim 1994 followed by a 1 race ban

Silverstone:

Quote

here was little drama until it was announced that Schumacher had been given a five-second stop-go penalty for twice overtaking Hill during the parade lap.
...
Schumacher was then black-flagged for failing to come in for his stop-go penalty after seven laps.
...
Berger ran third until he retired with engine trouble leaving Barrichello in third position. He later dropped behind Hakkinen and chased the Finn all the way to the flag. The pair collided at the last corner. Barrichello drove in on three wheels, crossing the finish line in the pitlane but Hakkinen was extricated from a sandtrap and managed to get to the line first to claim third.

Hockenheim? He was given a ban for this incident?

Quote

The big news however was an announcement by the FIA that it had found irregularities in the Benetton software at Imola.
...
At the start Berger took the lead from Alesi and a fast-starting Katayama. Behind there was chaos. Before the field even got to the first corner Andrea de Cesaris (Sauber) and a fast-starting Alex Zanardi (Lotus) collided in the midfield. The cars then took out the two Minardis of Pierluigi Martini and Michele Alboreto. As the field dived into the first turn Hakkinen and Blundell were on either side of Coulthard. The Scotsman was squeezed and had nowhere to go and so he hit Hakkinen and the McLaren-Peugeot spun in front of the pack while Blundell braked hard and was hit from behind by Irvine, punted into a spin and was then hit by Frentzen before bouncing back into Irvine again. Hakkinen, Blundell, Frentzen and Irvine all slid into the gravel trap, leaving Barrichello with no choice but to join them. Further back Johnny Herbert (Lotus) slowed when he saw what was happening ahead and he was then hit by Martin Brundle's McLaren. This spun Brundle across the road but he missed being hit by any other cars.

Seems like that, Hungarian GP

Quote

The unhappy 1994 season continued with the inquiry into the Hockenheim pitlane fire revealing that Benetton was using a refuelling system which had been tampered with by the team. The credibility of the Benetton team was gone after the black flag scandal at Silverstone and the allegations of illegal software which gave their drivers an advantage over the others. Mika Hakkinen was missing from the ranks having been given a one-race ban for causing the first corner accident at Hockenheim and so his place at McLaren was taken by Philippe Alliot.

Here is a video of the nastyness Mika did:
Mika is in the white car far to the right (from the drivers POV) that goes off first.

[Ricardo F1]

Quote

Originally posted by Jordan191

Silverstone , followed by Hockenheim 1994 followed by a 1 race ban

Well I meant deliberately and with malice, not an accident and a ridiculous ban.

[kenny]

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Originally posted by Ricardo F1

Well I meant deliberately and with malice, not an accident and a ridiculous ban.

lol...Yeah, Mika had so much to gain to do that deliberately...

[angst]

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Originally posted by Jordan191


I don't know the answer to your loaded question any more than you do. The difference is, I acknowledge the fact that I don't.

Ahem....*cough-bullshit -cough*

You do know the answer, but it certainly doesn't suit your purpose to admit as much.

[Jordan191]

Quote

Originally posted by Limits


Silverstone:


Hockenheim? He was given a ban for this incident?


Seems like that, Hungarian GP


Here is a video of the nastyness Mika did:
Mika is in the white car far to the right (from the drivers POV) that goes off first.

Mika was all the way over to the wall and hit the Williams in an effort to get back in line.

[Jordan191]

Quote

Originally posted by angst


Ahem....*cough-bullshit -cough*

You do know the answer, but it certainly doesn't suit your purpose to admit as much.

Yah and I'm to believe you and others are mindreaders too.

[Limits]

Quote

Originally posted by Jordan191

Mika was all the way over to the wall and hit the Williams in an effort to get back in line.

Deliberately punting the Williams in order to win the championship or accidently hit a Williams due to a very comlicated situation in the start (see Rubens/Kimi/Ralf at Hockenheim 2003)?

Or do you think that it does not matter if a accident/punt/push is deliberate or not?

[angst]

Quote

Originally posted by Jordan191


Yah and I'm to believe you and others are mindreaders too.

Well, on this particular incident I can read yours very clearly - and that probably pisses you off, doesn't it?

[Jordan191]

Was that the question that Riccardo asked? or are you changing the goalposts again?

[Limits]

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Originally posted by Jordan191
Was that the question that Riccardo asked? or are you changing the goalposts again?

I think it is rather you that gives another example of creative misunderstanding. What was Ricardo's question again?

[Jordan191]

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Originally posted by Ricardo F1

OK. So when did Mika push someone off the road?

well here we are. Where in here is 'deliberate' which is only a matter of opinion anyhow.

[Limits]

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Originally posted by Jordan191


well here we are. Where in here is 'deliberate' which is only a matter of opinion anyhow.

No, it is a matter of context. I am asking you - what did Ricardo ask? You answered a question that was asked in a context, so you can not simply quote the question without the context when asked what it was all about. Well, you can of course, and you did, but you deliberately misunderstood the question and you stubbornly refuse to admit it.

I ask you again: What was the question?

WTF, I don't really give a ****. Red tyres. RED ****ing TYRES this season. F1 will have the stupid #¤$£€x@@ "option tyre" system that made CART sillier than 'Driven' ever was!

[Matt79]

Quote

Originally posted by Lazarus II

IMO you're close, but not quite. It should read:
Many of Schumachers punishments were never that bad. His crimes were inexusable, he punishments were the real crime, but it made for exciting television and everyone made fantastic amounts of money. So why rock the boat.

Surely everybody is missing the point. Yes some of Schumacher's actions were inexcusable, yes he did take Hill off at Adelaide, yes his move at Jerez was shameful, yes his Monaco stunt was silly for a driver of his experience.

Yet that is all an essential part of what Michael Schumacher was: the fastest, most successful, most compelling Formula One driver of the past 12 years.

Lets be honest since 1994 Schumacher has given us the greatest dramas, scandals and drives.

Yes he went too far sometimes. Ok he never took on someone anywhere near his talents in the same car. But like it or lump it Schumacher WAS Formula One between '94 - '06. Simply because he was the most complete Formula One driver out there.

I was never a Schumacher fan, but sorry guys this guy was head and shoulders above anyone else for over a decade in the sport you all love. Try and remember Spa '95, Spain '96 and even Brazil '06, rather than just the bad things he did.

[angst]

Quote

Originally posted by Matt79




Surely everybody is missing the point. Yes some of Schumacher's actions were inexcusable, yes he did take Hill off at Adelaide, yes his move at Jerez was shameful, yes his Monaco stunt was silly for a driver of his experience.

Yet that is all an essential part of what Michael Schumacher was: the fastest, most successful, most compelling Formula One driver of the past 12 years.

Lets be honest since 1994 Schumacher has given us the greatest dramas, scandals and drives.

Yes he went too far sometimes. Ok he never took on someone anywhere near his talents in the same car. But like it or lump it Schumacher WAS Formula One between '94 - '06. Simply because he was the most complete Formula One driver out there.

I was never a Schumacher fan, but sorry guys this guy was head and shoulders above anyone else for over a decade in the sport you all love. Try and remember Spa '95, Spain '96 and even Brazil '06, rather than just the bad things he did.

Of course we remember his good bits - I'd dispute that he was "head and shoulders" above Mika Hakkinen, or Alonso for that matter, or Raikkonen, or Montoya in all his pomp, or Villeneuve in his prime - but that doesn't mean his rather less impressive history should be ignored or, worse, what EJ seems to be doing (and what a number of apologists have been doing for years on BBs such as this) is denying he actually committed the acts or hoisting them high as a fine example of a 'winning mentality'.

There will be a number of people who will remember him as the greatest F1 driver ever, there are others who will remember him as a very talented race driver who cheated and wouldn't face real competition from an equal teammate. Michael Schumacher probably (almost certainly) won't give a toss about those of the latter disposition but if he did he would have only himself to blame.

[Lazarus II]

Quote

Originally posted by Matt79




Surely everybody is missing the point. Yes some of Schumacher's actions were inexcusable, yes he did take Hill off at Adelaide, yes his move at Jerez was shameful, yes his Monaco stunt was silly for a driver of his experience.

Yet that is all an essential part of what Michael Schumacher was: the fastest, most successful, most compelling Formula One driver of the past 12 years.

Lets be honest since 1994 Schumacher has given us the greatest dramas, scandals and drives.

Yes he went too far sometimes. Ok he never took on someone anywhere near his talents in the same car. But like it or lump it Schumacher WAS Formula One between '94 - '06. Simply because he was the most complete Formula One driver out there.

I was never a Schumacher fan, but sorry guys this guy was head and shoulders above anyone else for over a decade in the sport you all love. Try and remember Spa '95, Spain '96 and even Brazil '06, rather than just the bad things he did.

Integrity is more important to me than hollow titles.
That's just my opinion and I'm happy to live my life with what I feel are proper moral values and priorities. I've accomplished more in my life than someone who compromises themselves, like a Michael Schumacher, ever will. Simple example: my integrity is intact, something he gave away a long time ago.

[HP]

Quote

Originally posted by Lazarus II

Integrity is more important to me than hollow titles.
That's just my opinion and I'm happy to live my life with what I feel are proper moral values and priorities. I've accomplished more in my life than someone who compromises themselves, like a Michael Schumacher, ever will. Simple example: my integrity is intact, something he gave away a long time ago.

It would be better for you if others would commend you.

[Lazarus II]

Quote

Originally posted by HP
It would be better for you if others would commend you.

No I'm happy and content knowing I'm doing what I feel is right for me. If I am commended, so be it, but that is not what I desire.

[baddog]

Quote

Originally posted by Lazarus II

No I'm happy and content knowing I'm doing what I feel is right for me.

And it never passes your smug little mind that Michael Schumacher feels the same way, and is hardly a criminal to be judged by you or anyone?

[Matt79]

Quote

Originally posted by angst


Of course we remember his good bits - I'd dispute that he was "head and shoulders" above Mika Hakkinen, or Alonso for that matter, or Raikkonen, or Montoya in all his pomp, or Villeneuve in his prime - but that doesn't mean his rather less impressive history should be ignored or, worse, what EJ seems to be doing (and what a number of apologists have been doing for years on BBs such as this) is denying he actually committed the acts or hoisting them high as a fine example of a 'winning mentality'.

There will be a number of people who will remember him as the greatest F1 driver ever, there are others who will remember him as a very talented race driver who cheated and wouldn't face real competition from an equal teammate. Michael Schumacher probably (almost certainly) won't give a toss about those of the latter disposition but if he did he would have only himself to blame.

I agree, as I said I'm not Schumacher's biggest fan, and I certainly don't think he is the greatest driver of all time. If for no other reason that he never had the courage to take on someone in the same car.

I certainly don't condone some of his acts, I actually feel cheated that perhaps the most talented driver of all time tarnished his reputation.

However I still think that over his career he simply was head and shoulders above anyone else. Ok Hakkinen was devastating in the late 90's, Alonso looks like he'll be a great, and Montoya and Villeneuve were just so exciting to watch. But none were able to sustain it for the length of time that Schumacher did, and he gave us the drama and the flawed genius on the way. To me that is what makes the Schumacher career so interesting. Lets be honest if it was all cut and dry we wouldn't be discussing it on here!

[Matt79]

Quote

Originally posted by Lazarus II

Integrity is more important to me than hollow titles.
That's just my opinion and I'm happy to live my life with what I feel are proper moral values and priorities. I've accomplished more in my life than someone who compromises themselves, like a Michael Schumacher, ever will. Simple example: my integrity is intact, something he gave away a long time ago.

Oh my, quite frankly if you've managed to get through life by being perfect then well done!

You must have led the most boring life on the planet mind!

Also hadn't realised you'd won 7 World championships, anyhow my mistake!

[Lazarus II]

Quote

Originally posted by Matt79


Oh my, quite frankly if you've managed to get through life by being perfect then well done!

You must have led the most boring life on the planet mind!

Also hadn't realised you'd won 7 World championships, anyhow my mistake!

I know for a FACT that I can speak for all of us on this one. We PGA profesionals would never stand for a "player" of the caliber of a Micheal Schumacher "win at all costs". No player would stand for it. No organization would stand for it, and no (true) sporting authority would stand for it. EVER!
That's the true difference between a real sport and entertainment type sports such as F1.

I've not gotten through life as a perfect human being, but I've not cheated to reach my goals either. So, if that's what you consider "getting through life by being perfect" then thank you very much Yes I guess I have in your eyes. I'm sorry for you that you haven't.....keep trying you'll get there.

If you call being a US Marine Recon team member and making a living doing what most do for recreation "the most boring life on the planet" then I guess your correct again. Give spyrigging a whirl and tell me that's boring.......after you change your pants though please.

[Matt79]

Quote

Originally posted by Lazarus II

I know for a FACT that I can speak for all of us on this one. We PGA profesionals would never stand for a "player" of the caliber of a Micheal Schumacher "win at all costs". No player would stand for it. No organization would stand for it, and no (true) sporting authority would stand for it. EVER!
That's the true difference between a real sport and entertainment type sports such as F1.

I've not gotten through life as a perfect human being, but I've not cheated to reach my goals either. So, if that's what you consider "getting through life by being perfect" then thank you very much Yes I guess I have in your eyes. I'm sorry for you that you haven't.....keep trying you'll get there.

If you call being a US Marine Recon team member and making a living doing what most do for recreation "the most boring life on the planet" then I guess your correct again. Give spyrigging a whirl and tell me that's boring.......after you change your pants though please.

Well done for all that, no it really is impressive - honestly

Just a shame you're so far up your arse about it.

[Lazarus II]

Quote

Originally posted by Matt79


Well done for all that, no it really is impressive - honestly

Just a shame you're so far up your arse about it.

Up my arse about it? Hey, you insulted me about being "boring" and I told you the truth about my "boring life". Now I'm "up my arse about it" .....make up your mind.
Your insults began when you started to compare Micheal Schumacher to me. You continue to insult me, knowing nothing about me I may add. If you'd like to debate the sportsmanship of Micheal Schumacher like an adult, then that's what this thread is about. If you'd like to continue insulting me then PM me, that way you don't get yourself banned for something trivial.

[Jordan191]

apparently as well as mind readers , you people are perfect judges of characters

I am humbled to be in the presence of great men (and women).

[selespeed]

Quote

If you'd like to debate the sportsmanship of Micheal Schumacher

he can't because ms hasn't got any...