Posted by
on 16 September 2018 - 16:24
in
Racing Comments
Yes, 2008 STR was better than that year’s RBR.Didnt you get the memo yet?
hamilton's been driving minardis for all of his career; Alonso almost won 2012 in a shitbox meanwhile Vettels 2008 Toro Rosso was actually a pretty good car.
Posted by
on 16 September 2018 - 16:34
in
Racing Comments
Yes, 2008 STR was better than that year’s RBR.
Not a bad car and of course the Monza drive was very good. But let him win the title without a Newey car, then we can talk about greatness.
Thats not the point tho.
The ppl. who would call Fernandos 2012 ferrari a "shitbox" are the same ones who would say the 2008 Toro Rosso was a "good car". when its clear as day that the toro rosso was nowhere near as competitive with its contemporaries as the 2012 ferrari was.
Vettel has plenty of flaws alright, but being slow or unable to extract the best out of his machinery in a race are not one of them.
Posted by
on 17 September 2018 - 08:08
in
Racing Comments
Yes, 2008 STR was better than that year’s RBR.
Not a bad car and of course the Monza drive was very good. But let him win the title without a Newey car, then we can talk about greatness.
How come the 2008 STR somehow became a better car that year when it never matched RBR even closely in any other season? I don't buy that. The only thing that was obviously (but marginally) better with that STR was the Ferrari engine. Most of those 2008 STR great results came in rain and as we all know driver skill often becomes the deciding factor in the rain.
Posted by
on 28 November 2017 - 15:51
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Racing Comments
Vettel’s 2008 Monza win was MASSIVELY over-hyped. If you actually sit down, and look at the facts of the weekend, you will come to the realization that it wasn’t that amazing at all.
And the car should have been DQed for the entire season because it used RBR/Newey IP. <- My unpopular opinion.
Posted by
on 27 August 2013 - 23:09
in
Racing Comments
I agree. Even if everything was ideal at every track from the first race, if he didn't crash in Malaysia and instead finished on the podium, didn't open DRS again in Bahrain and finished 5th in Monaco, and that was possible, he would now have something between 176 and 182 points, at best 15 points behind Vettel. RB9 is too strong, and Vettel is also driving incredibly well. Alonso will probably finish second anyway at the end of the season, so he will provide the best possible result with this car.
Precisely. So it is not all down to the car - some of the fault lies with the drivers. No one expects them to be perfect, however, similarly, the drivers cannot expect perfection from the team either. It is clear that without the minor errors on his part and with a faster car, Alonso would be further ahead. So i do not think that either Alonso or Ferrari merit disparagement on that front.
I don't follow Ferrari or Alonso closely, but to be honest, I have not seen the supposed "horrible disparagement of Ferrari from Fernando" publicly. All drivers say the cars have to improve and the team must work hard to move forward and so forth. Alonso's wish for a better car or a Red Bull for his birthday sounded tongue in cheek to me. So I have to imagine these negative comments are being stated behind the scenes. I did not approve of Luca's speeches - not just about Alonso, although that is all that is appropriate in this thread.
That said, I have seen and heard things that were a bit surprising from Alonso - but none of them were downgrading Ferrari directly - although perhaps indirectly in terms of looking into other options. For example, his manager at Red bull; his comment about Seb doing a great job and it wasn't Newey this year (I started a thread asking if that was going to turn into a RBR bid), his effusive congrats to Seb on his win (hugs stopped after Monza 2008 for Seb, although he does regularly hug others); his pause to shake Horner's hand on the grid; well these things made me believe Alonso might be pursuing Red Bull as an option - or trying to make it look as though he is. So it could be that Alonso is provoked by more than the car toward looking at options for moving teams. It could mean problems at Ferrari - or not, lol.
Another point is that this whole "Ferrari car is terrible and not performing" is not valid, imo. As pointed out, the car has performed well enough to give Alonso the title in 3 years of the 4 so far (2010, 2012 and 2013 - and improving). So I don't agree that Fernando has any right to leave Ferrari because they have not delivered the best car on the grid for him on a consistent basis. They have done so sufficient to win and that is all that is required. People like to say RBR (his only real top car option, imo) has consistently provided the best car on the grid, but the reality would hit most square in the face I guess - including Alonso. The RBR is largely ignored when it is flagging and flailing, unless your favorite driver happens to be seated in it, then you remember every FP and every qually and every race - and it has not been the best in either qually or race the majority of years 2010, 2012, or 2013, either due to reliability, pace or mechanical issues. That is the reality Alonso would find at any constructor - what he has found now. I think he knows that. Which leads me to believe his current seeming unhappiness has only 10% to do with the performance of the Ferrari and 90% to do with Ferrari administrative relations.
In the end, I think egos will cool and Fernando is not on his way out. Even if he must compromise - he'll stay. No one can offer him the bonuses and boons he enjoys now as #1 driver in the most famous car in the world of F1. He has massive support in and out of the garage, and that is something that one doesn't dismiss lightly.
Posted by
on 25 July 2011 - 00:46
in
Racing Comments Archive
Wake up! There´s a german guy (only 24 years old) he´s going to join the same achievements than Alonso with almost 100 races less... we can talk about class above
Alonso was betrayed by Mclaren and I consider him a much better driver than Lewis (that not means that I not consider Lewis an amazing driver too).
Also the Toro Rosso at Monza was the fastest car... and at China 07 or Monaco 08... Vettel always drove the best car. Even the Webber car is a different chassis car...
Posted by
on 11 September 2013 - 10:33
in
Racing Comments
Strange how a driver with such an obvious claim to a top F1 team has spent 3 seasons driving cars that have little or no chance of winning in F1.
It is vital that to succeed in F1, assuming a certain level of talent, that drivers must be well connected and onside very early on in their careers. If you have to scratch around in mediocre or average machines for several years then you are in peril of your skills and motivation being squandered and becoming sidelined. The difference in the F1 careers of Vettel and Hulkenberg is startling, the former has gone from strength to strength, from memory starting off with a single BMW entry in 2007 followed by several drives with Torro Rosso, then 2008 with TR and the Monza win then straight to RBR with 4 wins and runner up in the WDC followed by 3 and now probably 4 WDCs in a row. Much of this, in my opinion, made possible by Newey designed cars.
In my opinion Nico Hulkenberg is at least as capable as Vettel but despite his many pre-F1 successes he has had to rely upon Williams, Force India and now Sauber. Is he less marketable than others, or is he unlucky that there are already three German drivers in regular F1 seats, why for instance, as others have commented, did McLaren choose the inconsistent and overly aggressive Perez instead of Nico?
Let's hope Hulkenberg gets the Lotus ride or something comparable/better soon.
It's quite simple: Vettel got a spot in the Red Bull Junior Squad and Hülkenberg didn't. Same as with Hamilton. He was picked up by McLaren, a Di Resta for example had to take the route via DTM and is now trapped in a Midfield Team.
Posted by
on 11 September 2013 - 10:11
in
Racing Comments
Strange how a driver with such an obvious claim to a top F1 team has spent 3 seasons driving cars that have little or no chance of winning in F1.
It is vital that to succeed in F1, assuming a certain level of talent, that drivers must be well connected and onside very early on in their careers. If you have to scratch around in mediocre or average machines for several years then you are in peril of your skills and motivation being squandered and becoming sidelined. The difference in the F1 careers of Vettel and Hulkenberg is startling, the former has gone from strength to strength, from memory starting off with a single BMW entry in 2007 followed by several drives with Torro Rosso, then 2008 with TR and the Monza win then straight to RBR with 4 wins and runner up in the WDC followed by 3 and now probably 4 WDCs in a row. Much of this, in my opinion, made possible by Newey designed cars.
In my opinion Nico Hulkenberg is at least as capable as Vettel but despite his many pre-F1 successes he has had to rely upon Williams, Force India and now Sauber. Is he less marketable than others, or is he unlucky that there are already three German drivers in regular F1 seats, why for instance, as others have commented, did McLaren choose the inconsistent and overly aggressive Perez instead of Nico?
Let's hope Hulkenberg gets the Lotus ride or something comparable/better soon.
Posted by
on 12 September 2013 - 10:44
in
Racing Comments
Strange how a driver with such an obvious claim to a top F1 team has spent 3 seasons driving cars that have little or no chance of winning in F1.
It is vital that to succeed in F1, assuming a certain level of talent, that drivers must be well connected and onside very early on in their careers. If you have to scratch around in mediocre or average machines for several years then you are in peril of your skills and motivation being squandered and becoming sidelined. The difference in the F1 careers of Vettel and Hulkenberg is startling, the former has gone from strength to strength, from memory starting off with a single BMW entry in 2007 followed by several drives with Torro Rosso, then 2008 with TR and the Monza win then straight to RBR with 4 wins and runner up in the WDC followed by 3 and now probably 4 WDCs in a row. Much of this, in my opinion, made possible by Newey designed cars.
In my opinion Nico Hulkenberg is at least as capable as Vettel but despite his many pre-F1 successes he has had to rely upon Williams, Force India and now Sauber. Is he less marketable than others, or is he unlucky that there are already three German drivers in regular F1 seats, why for instance, as others have commented, did McLaren choose the inconsistent and overly aggressive Perez instead of Nico?
Let's hope Hulkenberg gets the Lotus ride or something comparable/better soon.
Yes, the differences in their careers are quite surprising given that both are the same age and raced together in karting in Germany. Vettel was "lucky" to get the Red Bull backing and then the BMW backing after impressing them in the Formula BMW, that meant two teams pushing for him to get a drive in F1 while Hulk was still in F3-A1GP and had to wait a lot more to get to F1. Maybe, if he hadn't rejected the Red Bull junior team, he coud be now in RBR instead of Ricciardo.
Also, he's unlucky because there are a lot of Germans in F1 so it's difficult to find sponsors.
Hopefully Lotus will give him a drive for next yeat and he will finally be able to show how good he is.
Posted by
on 04 January 2009 - 09:28
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The Nostalgia Forum
Posted by
on 10 January 2009 - 12:51
in
The Nostalgia Forum
Posted by
on 26 July 2013 - 00:25
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Racing Comments
Pardon my french. What I meant to say was that during YDT and both drivers' efforts during the season have proven great deal speed but not the level of consistency and maturity. Overall not enough raw skill for RBR seat IMHO. At least not yet. In terms of points Vergne has actually more points from 2011 and 2012. If you look what Vettel did on his journey at STR (points + pole&win @ Monza 2008) neither driver is there. Kimi's first season with Sauber was huge as well.
Posted by
on 27 July 2013 - 17:40
in
Racing Comments
Some of these posts are hilarious.
Posted by
on 27 September 2011 - 20:16
in
Racing Comments Archive
some funny statistic, between 1999 and 2010 NO Newey car delivered a championship. Drivers in those cars: Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, Pedro de La Rosa, Mark Webber, Christijan Klien.
Another funny statistic: Between 9/10/2005 (Raikkonen Japan) and 14/9/2008 (Vettel Monza) no Newey car won a single race (although to be honest he didn't design a car in 2006. But fielded 4 in 2008)
one could conclude that even a Newey designed car is no guarantee for succes. (I will admit the RB7 is a great car, but it is no way near as good as the championship standings suggest.)
Posted by
on 27 July 2011 - 08:12
in
Racing Comments Archive
You don't get it.
Posted by
on 01 July 2011 - 03:16
in
Racing Comments Archive
You misunderstand me. I'm not doubting it was a fantastic win, but many people are of the opinion (like you say everyone is entitled to it) that there was no way the Toro Rosso could've won a race, but for Vettel. My point is that at Monza, it definitely was either the best or 2nd best car on the grid.
Of course Vettel was a part of it, but it was only 'against the odds' because of the team's history, not because of it's present (2008 of course) form. This wasn't a win in a Minardi, this was a win in an Adrian Newey-designed, Ferrari-powered full 'works' (in that it had the same developments as up at RBR) car that was run by old Minardi guys, a team who always ran their cars, however good they were, impeccably. The historical image of the team was no more, yet that is what makes up the bulk of the 'myth'... 'Vettel wins in Minardi' etc etc etc.
Posted by
on 30 June 2011 - 20:48
in
Racing Comments Archive
Once the specific circumstances are considered - all of them - it is one of the 'great' wins in F1 history. Vettel was a part of it - as was his (increasingly better performing during the season) STRF. But that was just the tip of the iceberg. There are so many firsts associated with that drive/driver/car/team, and so many props going out to the many connected to the drive - and so many in F1 lauding it all before, during and after, it is rather ingenious of you to discount it as 'just another good win' among the many in F1. But perhaps you are serious, and everyone is truly welcome to their Honest opinion. I would have to disagree with you though, and I believe 99.9% of the world of F1 would too (if they were honest).
Posted by
on 27 September 2011 - 09:44
in
Racing Comments Archive
If it would be so easy - just a better car than rest of them - then AN could sit in, drive it, and win as well. There would not need for Sebastian. Horner would be sitting in the second one. A lot of money would be saved that way.some funny statistic, between 1999 and 2010 NO Newey car delivered a championship. Drivers in those cars: Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, Pedro de La Rosa, Mark Webber, Christijan Klien.
Another funny statistic: Between 9/10/2005 (Raikkonen Japan) and 14/9/2008 (Vettel Monza) no Newey car won a single race (although to be honest he didn't design a car in 2006. But fielded 4 in 2008)
one could conclude that even a Newey designed car is no guarantee for succes. (I will admit the RB7 is a great car, but it is no way near as good as the championship standings suggest.)
Posted by
on 27 September 2011 - 09:26
in
Racing Comments Archive
It all depends on Newey.
Posted by
on 29 September 2011 - 09:24
in
Racing Comments Archive
Lets see how this 'special' driving style works in a non newey car that is super glued to the track. He was slower than bourdais until torro rosso got the updated newey chassis.
some funny statistic, between 1999 and 2010 NO Newey car delivered a championship. Drivers in those cars: Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, Pedro de La Rosa, Mark Webber, Christijan Klien.
Another funny statistic: Between 9/10/2005 (Raikkonen Japan) and 14/9/2008 (Vettel Monza) no Newey car won a single race (although to be honest he didn't design a car in 2006. But fielded 4 in 2008)
one could conclude that even a Newey designed car is no guarantee for succes. (I will admit the RB7 is a great car, but it is no way near as good as the championship standings suggest.)
Posted by
on 27 September 2011 - 09:51
in
Racing Comments Archive
some funny statistic, between 1999 and 2010 NO Newey car delivered a championship. Drivers in those cars: Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, Pedro de La Rosa, Mark Webber, Christijan Klien.
Another funny statistic: Between 9/10/2005 (Raikkonen Japan) and 14/9/2008 (Vettel Monza) no Newey car won a single race (although to be honest he didn't design a car in 2006. But fielded 4 in 2008)
one could conclude that even a Newey designed car is no guarantee for succes. (I will admit the RB7 is a great car, but it is no way near as good as the championship standings suggest.)
Posted by
on 27 September 2011 - 09:44
in
Racing Comments Archive
some funny statistic, between 1999 and 2010 NO Newey car delivered a championship. Drivers in those cars: Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, Pedro de La Rosa, Mark Webber, Christijan Klien.
Another funny statistic: Between 9/10/2005 (Raikkonen Japan) and 14/9/2008 (Vettel Monza) no Newey car won a single race (although to be honest he didn't design a car in 2006. But fielded 4 in 2008)
one could conclude that even a Newey designed car is no guarantee for succes. (I will admit the RB7 is a great car, but it is no way near as good as the championship standings suggest.)
Posted by
on 27 October 2012 - 12:19
in
Racing Comments
Vettel was in front because of Webber's usually bad starts or strategy mistakes(Malaysia, Spain), otherwise in the first 6 races Webber was faster, apart from Bahrain of course.
I understend that it's frustrating for you to see so much people, including Hamilton and Alonso trying to diminish Vettel's achivements, but you have to blame only Vettel, for his quite poor show when the car was not dominant and so planted as it's today.
On the other hand, it's poor show for some Alonso fanboys with this constant trolling about Newey and car. No driver won a WDC, by himself. It's a team sport.
Otherwise, can't understand Vettel's fans saying Seb was poor today, because all drivers made mistakes in Q3. It seems this track is certainly not easy to drive.
Posted by
on 18 November 2010 - 12:10
in
Racing Comments Archive
Posted by
on 18 November 2010 - 12:23
in
Racing Comments Archive
As I said after the race in Korea and agreeing with Sir Jack, Webber lost the championship right there and then. All he had to do is keep the car on the tarmac and bring home a good load of points and the championship was almost in the bag.
Things learned from both drivers:
- Webber has bogey tracks (Vettel does not though this year he improved his Valencia showing speed wise, race was a completely different story)
- Webber does not have the mental toughness going into the end of a championship despite what everyone says (the same reason why he did not win F3000, in Korea and Abu Dhabi he did not like he even wanted to be there)
- Webber is too cautious when in the lead causing Monza and Valencia to end up being poor races when he should have made the most of it.
- Webber has improved his consistency (but is still crash happy) but needs to improve it to the point where he is making the maximum out of the car 5 races straight etc. and not 2 littered with poor finishes the next event after
- Webber needs to improve his starts
- Webber can play the political game off track and is blunt, but sometimes it does not help his situation (Brazil, rumoured McLaren drive to replace Alonso)
- Vettel is blindingly quick (I always thought Webber was superfast in qualifying hammering his old team-mates, but after Vettel has done the same to him there is no question Vettel is quick)
- Vettel needs to improve his racecraft (something Webber is much better at despite his crashes and being marginal at times on the racetrack)
- Vettel needs to improve his mental toughness during the race
- Vettel needs to be less of car breaker to help his own chances (Barcelona comes to mind, running over kerbs both in Turkey Qly and Monza)
- Both drivers are brillant when out in front.
What I noticed and a lot of reasons why Webber finished ahead of his team-mates was he was able to qualify ahead and have car position. Except whenever Webber was crash happy and inconsistent - part of reason why Heidfield was able to outscore him during his season at Williams. Now the tables are turned, except Vettel is much quicker and able to match/go faster than Webber.
All this time, I too thought Webber would make the step up with the tier 1 guys i.e. Hamilton, Alonso and yes I'll put Vettel in that bracket once he improves his racecraft, but this hasn't happened. He is not fast enough on all tracks and that will put him at a disadvantage every time. I expect him to have another great year next year but I don't see him mounting a WDC without improving in all those areas. It will be even harder with KERs being introduced as this will play more into Vettel's hands.
It was a great season for Webber but is slowly disintegrated which is what is most disappointing. He is still a brillant driver but IMO will never be considered part of the elite tier 1 group.
Hamilton/Alonso/Vettel
Webber/Kubica/Rosberg
Button (While Button is a brillant strategic racer, he will never have the speed that those guys have above unless the car is absolutely in the sweet spot for him, otherwise he can be way off the pace)
Massa (Excellent 2008 but does not have the pace, consistency and was/isn't great in the rain. I've never considered him worthy of the Ferrari drive in the first place)
....
As DC says, you are only as good as your last race. Given Webber's last race of the season was pretty much his worst of the whole season both in qualifying and race you can see why all fans feel like he isn't as good as he was mid-season. Opinions will change again next year, that's how fickle we all are. If Newey produces another stunner next year which I bet he will, Vettel IMO will be on his way to his next championship.
Hey, at least it wasn't a drubbing like Alonso gave to Fisi once he got his hands on a top car. We know that Webber can compete at the front and dominate races. He just needs to do that more often.
Agree with all of what you say pretty much. But the best thing about your post is that it's balanced & objective imho. You acknowledge both driver's. Compliment their strengths & point out their weaknesses in your opinion. A pity some others can't look at things in the same manner that you do.
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