1213 replies to this topic

[SteveCanyon]

Zoe, on Sep 2 2010, 23:13, said:

I had an unintended acceleration today in my Peugeot van. First I thought it was the throttle pedal getting stuck in the rubber mat. After switching off the ignition I coasted to a stop; sure enough, no contact with the throttle pedal and the mat. The throttle pedal even pulled back easily, still the engine was screaming. Turned out to be a dirty throttle linkage before the throttle body. Some WD40 and mechanical persuasion did the trick.

Some reasons for runaway engines are most uncomplicated....

Zoe

You see that wouldn't have happened with a DBW throttle .... Wait wot!

[Ray Bell]

What model Peugeot van was that, Zoe?

I never knew you were a Peugeotphile.

[Zoe]

Ray Bell, on Sep 3 2010, 23:23, said:

What model Peugeot van was that, Zoe?

I never knew you were a Peugeotphile.

Sorry for the late reply, I was on holiday and off the net.... It's a 1996 Peugeot 806 van. I got it from my dad who wanted to cash it in the German "cash for clunkers" program. I talked him out from it and got it basically for free (we clunkered and cashed in my Volkswagen instead). With all gimmicks loaded and huge space it is basically a very useful car, besides having a problem with an anchor plate for the rear brakes broken and no replacement available.....
Anyway I wouldn't call myself a Peugeotphile, quite on the contrary, but I got the car for free and its quite useful.....

Zoe

[Tony Matthews]

Zoe, on Sep 11 2010, 19:44, said:

Anyway I wouldn't call myself a Peugeotphile, quite on the contrary, but I got the car for free and its quite useful.....

Zoe

A pragmatist, then... Admirable!

[gruntguru]

Tony Matthews, on Sep 12 2010, 05:44, said:

A pragmatist, then... Admirable!

You see a lot of pragmatists driving Peugeot vans.

[Zoe]

I save my passion (and energy) for my Cadillacs and my Celica Supra ;)

Zoe

[Lee Nicolle]

Toymota is in the news again with a 150000 car recall due to pssible leaking brakes. OOoops!
At this rate of recall they are below Kia in standings now.

[Lee Nicolle]

Now announced 30000 in Autralia from 04 models onwards. Oh what a recall!!

[Ray Bell]

Quote

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle
Now announced 30000 in Autralia from 04 models onwards. Oh what a recall!

What are they citing?

I recently noticed that the front floor mat of my wife's Yaris was in the boot, by the way. It's a 2007 model she bought new and she's not had any problems with it, so I asked her...

"They told me it might jam the accelerator," she said, "and they told me to take it out. And no, it's not that there's any problem with the car!"

Toyota dealers here, therefore, have been keeping a close eye on things and trying to ensure owners recognise floor mats as a potential problem.

[John Brundage]

Today the US D.O.T issued a report that said NASA could find no electrical cause for unintended acceleration.

[Todd]

Perhaps it is beating a dead horse, but the NASA report performed for the NHTSA trying to find a shred of reality to support LaHood's fantasies is in. Electronics not at fault in Toyota character assassination.

[Lee Nicolle]

I dont think that reporty will totally ease peoples thoughts. It seems the electronic pedals are to blame.
The mention though f accident data oggers for all vehicles really is so spid, it will add considerably to the cost of a vehicle.
Standardised ignition controls though are a very good idea, though standardised controls would be even better. eg wipers, turn signals, ignition switch etc all in the same general location, right hand, left hand etc.
What is a brake override? is that like cruise conrol where hitting the brake cancels the throttle. That will make it impossible to drive with 2 feet, 1 on the brake and one on the go like a LOT of us do.If that is the case I do not want one!

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 08 February 2011 - 23:44.

[gruntguru]

Lee Nicolle, on Feb 9 2011, 09:43, said:

The mention though of accident data loggers for all vehicles really is so stupid, it will add considerably to the cost of a vehicle.

Basic functionality could be done for almost zero cost. A bit of programming and some memory to record all the signals (that already exist) integrated into the control unit(s).

[pugfan]

gruntguru, on Feb 9 2011, 11:19, said:

Basic functionality could be done for almost zero cost. A bit of programming and some memory to record all the signals (that already exist) integrated into the control unit(s).

'A bit of programming'



I've spent most of my career on projects that are late because software is perpetually dismissed as trivial.

[gruntguru]

pugfan, on Feb 9 2011, 15:26, said:

'A bit of programming'
I've spent most of my career on projects that are late because software is perpetually dismissed as trivial.

At the auto-maker level, programming basic logging would be a trivial task.

[Zoe]

John Brundage, on Feb 8 2011, 23:25, said:

Today the US D.O.T issued a report that said NASA could find no electrical cause for unintended acceleration.

Well, NASA once couldn't find a difference between inch and centimeters

Zoe

[pugfan]

gruntguru, on Feb 9 2011, 16:05, said:

At the auto-maker level, programming basic logging would be a trivial task.

I'll make a judgement and say you're not a software engineer.

Why would basic logging necessarily be trivial? Sure, an OEM can bring a lot of man-power to bear but their ECU software architecture may be completely unsuited for global logging and could require a complete re-write, somewhat unlikely I'd agree but I've seen it before on software projects larger than what goes into an engine ECU. Their ECU hardware may already be stretched in processing capacity or memory with no immediate plans to address this. Their software process may be quite immature and unable to cope with a change that impacts on a broad level and production logging is one of those aspects that is all pervasive throughout code.

If software is so trivial, why was NASA (Inch/cm blind spots not-withstanding) commissioned to investigate Toyota's software?

[gruntguru]

pugfan, on Feb 10 2011, 09:32, said:

I'll make a judgement and say you're not a software engineer.

Why would basic logging necessarily be trivial? Sure, an OEM can bring a lot of man-power to bear but their ECU software architecture may be completely unsuited for global logging and could require a complete re-write, somewhat unlikely I'd agree but I've seen it before on software projects larger than what goes into an engine ECU. Their ECU hardware may already be stretched in processing capacity or memory with no immediate plans to address this. Their software process may be quite immature and unable to cope with a change that impacts on a broad level and production logging is one of those aspects that is all pervasive throughout code.

(No. Not a software engineer.)

- I say trivial because the % increase in ECU functionality required is miniscule.
- All OEM ECU's already incorporate logging at various levels.
- Many (including Toyota) are already logging at the level that would be required to provide a basic data snapshot of the period prior to engine stop (or some other defined event such as airbag deployment).
- ECU development falls to a specialised division within the company (Denso, Delco etc) or often an outside supplier (Bosch, Siemens, Delphi etc). Corporations like Bosch have traditionally driven HW/FW/SW development and innovation. I guarantee for example, that basic "flight recorder" logging would be available as an upgrade, at very short notice to OEMs using Bosch engine management.
- At the OEM level, amortisation over a large number of vehicles means that the cost of pure development (no hardware or tooling) have little impact on unit costing.

Edited by gruntguru, 10 February 2011 - 03:57.

[Magoo]

In regard to data logging, in virtually all passenger vehicles it's already in there in two different boxes -- ECU and SRS. It needs only to be configured. Toyota took some heat on this most recent deal because its electronics are obfuscated for such purposes.

[pugfan]

gruntguru, on Feb 10 2011, 11:22, said:

No. Not a software engineer.

I don't intend to offend but it shows.

[Ray Bell]

NASA's guarded report by no means indicates there's no problem.

I look forward to seeing more complete reporting, but I also would suggest that it's possible Toymotor has now eliminated the problem and re-programmed all cars during the course of their recalls and other servicing.

[Todd]

Get a grip. NASA was brought in because the NHTSA couldn't find anything and Ray LaHood/Osama/GM really wanted something found. If NASA found a misspelling in the code it would have been reported.

[John Brundage]

Ray Bell, on Feb 12 2011, 17:43, said:

NASA's guarded report by no means indicates there's no problem.

I look forward to seeing more complete reporting, but I also would suggest that it's possible Toymotor has now eliminated the problem and re-programmed all cars during the course of their recalls and other servicing.

I had heard that NASA was conducting the tests on cars that were the subject of complaints and that they were not randomly chosen.

[Magoo]

Because NASA did such a bang-up jump recognizing potential problems with the Challenger and Columbia shuttle disasters, then conducted its investigations of same with such thoroughness and precision. Not to mention OCO, Mars Climate Orbiter, Mars Polar Lander, DART, Deep Space 2, Hubble...These guys are experts at trouble, if not identifying and fixing it.

More to the point: How many people and man-hours did NASA engage on the Toyota investigation? What methodologies and processes did they employ? What people did they bring in or expertise did they consult? Anybody know?

[Lee Nicolle]

Magoo, on Feb 13 2011, 01:03, said:

Because NASA did such a bang-up jump recognizing potential problems with the Challenger and Columbia shuttle disasters, then conducted its investigations of same with such thoroughness and precision. Not to mention OCO, Mars Climate Orbiter, Mars Polar Lander, DART, Deep Space 2, Hubble...These guys are experts at trouble, if not identifying and fixing it.

More to the point: How many people and man-hours did NASA engage on the Toyota investigation? What methodologies and processes did they employ? What people did they bring in or expertise did they consult? Anybody know?

Not very much automotive experience, but they did give Hubble some glasses!! At about a billion dollar cost.

[gruntguru]

pugfan, on Feb 10 2011, 15:39, said:

I don't intend to offend but it shows.

Offend? I take that as a compliment actually.

[cheapracer]

I was amused at this but BAD LANGUAGE WARNING - if you are offended by the F WORD don't click on this ...

http://www.streetfir...-fix_741241.htm

[Tony Matthews]

He should work for the BBC.

[Catalina Park]

Tony Matthews, on Jun 30 2011, 03:16, said:

He should work for the BBC.

Or TISM.

[cheapracer]

Catalina Park, on Jun 30 2011, 16:10, said:

Or TISM.

That will go over the top of just about everybody here ...

A little help;

http://www.google.co...l...sa=N&tab=wi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TISM

http://www.ebaumswor...o/watch/225760/

Edited by cheapracer, 30 June 2011 - 15:18.

[Catalina Park]

cheapracer, on Jul 1 2011, 01:18, said:

That will go over the top of just about everybody here ...

I did it just for you!

My favourite is TISM I Might Be A ****, But I'm Not A ****ing **** (sorry cheapy it is on youtube so you won't be able to sing along with the rest of us)

[Tony Matthews]

I checked 'em out, only heard one number, liked it! They are like a sophisticated version of The Macc Lads.

[Catalina Park]

Try (He'll Never Be An) Old Man River
The best bit is the Michael Jackson punch line.

Edited by Catalina Park, 02 July 2011 - 05:45.

[Ray Bell]

This is one of those occasions I wish I had sound on this computer...

Oh well, it will have to wait!

[Joe Bosworth]

I couldn't help but notice that today's business pages carry an article that Toyota has agreed to pay US$ 1.1 billion in response to a US class-action lawsuit brought about by the accelerating throttle problem. Of course the settlement stipulates that there is no admission of of fault or unlawful conduct by Toyota.

Legal fee liabilities yet to be set are expected to raise the legal cost to Toyota to the $1.4b range. The article notes that recall costs total some $3.1b and lost sales estimates are $2b. Big bikkies indeed.

There are two more lawsuits yet to be settled, one a consumer protection and fraud suit in Orange County California and the other an unfair business practice case brought by 28 states.

Regards

[Lee Nicolle]

Joe Bosworth, on Dec 28 2012, 02:37, said:

I couldn't help but notice that today's business pages carry an article that Toyota has agreed to pay US$ 1.1 billion in response to a US class-action lawsuit brought about by the accelerating throttle problem. Of course the settlement stipulates that there is no admission of of fault or unlawful conduct by Toyota.

Legal fee liabilities yet to be set are expected to raise the legal cost to Toyota to the $1.4b range. The article notes that recall costs total some $3.1b and lost sales estimates are $2b. Big bikkies indeed.

There are two more lawsuits yet to be settled, one a consumer protection and fraud suit in Orange County California and the other an unfair business practice case brought by 28 states.

Regards

But it seems Toymota are not admitting liability, just blaming all the non sensical stuff like mats etc. Instead of dodgey pedals [seemingly] Clearly there was a problem of some sort, probably over amplified by some attention seekers. I have spoken to mechanics from Toyota dealerships and they do not know, just replace components as instructed.Different components on different models.
I still think a throttle cable or linkage is still the safest. that and a ignition key that turns the engine off instead of this dumb push button and electronic key garbage.
Talking to a Ford sales bloke recently and a LOT of people are rejecting their models with this type of set up.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 29 December 2012 - 00:06.

[Ray Bell]

Lee, if you've been following all of this you will know that I'm firmly in the camp of those who believe Toymotor got their software wrong...

Nothing to do with pedals, nothing to do with mats. You are right, the cable or linkage is safest.

As for that other abortion, the keyless ignition, I don't understand how that was ever allowed to happen.

[Magoo]

Toyota's stock price rose on the news, which indicates the company got off cheaper than anticipated.

[MatsNorway]

Ray Bell, on Dec 29 2012, 12:52, said:

nothing to do with mats.

Puhh!
good to hear!

Edited by MatsNorway, 29 December 2012 - 19:27.

[TF110]

There were no problems with the electronics. It's all a bunch of BS witch hunt, mostly pedal misapplication. Stuck throttles because people stacked floor mats on top of floor mats. Many auto magazines and publications showed that any and ALL of Toyota's cars, including Lexus, will be stopped by holding the brake pedal. These people were either pressing the wrong pedal, or pumping the brakes and not firmly holding it. There's not enough power in the cars to overcome the brakes. This is my favorite one- CarandDriver

[Robin Fairservice]

TF110, on Dec 29 2012, 11:36, said:

There were no problems with the electronics. It's all a bunch of BS witch hunt, mostly pedal misapplication. Stuck throttles because people stacked floor mats on top of floor mats. Many auto magazines and publications showed that any and ALL of Toyota's cars, including Lexus, will be stopped by holding the brake pedal. These people were either pressing the wrong pedal, or pumping the brakes and not firmly holding it. There's not enough power in the cars to overcome the brakes. This is my favorite one- CarandDriver

If people drive automatics, then why don`t they learn to left foot brake, and then they won`t hit the throttle.

[Lee Nicolle]

TF110, on Dec 29 2012, 20:36, said:

There were no problems with the electronics. It's all a bunch of BS witch hunt, mostly pedal misapplication. Stuck throttles because people stacked floor mats on top of floor mats. Many auto magazines and publications showed that any and ALL of Toyota's cars, including Lexus, will be stopped by holding the brake pedal. These people were either pressing the wrong pedal, or pumping the brakes and not firmly holding it. There's not enough power in the cars to overcome the brakes. This is my favorite one- CarandDriver

That article has one MAJOR flaw, if you try to stop a full throttle car the brake booster vaccuum will disapear quite rapidly.Though ofcourse nuetral is the correct driving tecnique.
As for unintended accident, hey if the throttle sticks the average 'driver' takes a second or two to react. In some cases they need a conference with the passengers.
And I doubt that some of the powerfull models could be ocercome by the brake for any length of time.
What ever that can cause an accident, I have had throttles jam and it has scared me and I am a very experienced driver. On a freeway it is generally ok, driving through the hills etc it is plain dangerous. That has been floor mats, daggy cables and linkages. Electronic throttles can and will jam. not just on Toyotas might I add.And that is never a maintenance issue, a serviceman can inspect linkages and cables but not a reostat which is all the effectivly are.
And I think there is too much evidence that throttles do jam on Toyotas for what ever reason.
While only an annoyance I own one that accelerates occasionally on cruise control, tap the brake and it stops but it should not happen, and that is a 2 1/2 ton Landcruiser.
It should be legislated that all vehicles have the controls in the same basic location, eg ignition switch, gear levers[ and a standardised pattern], wiper controls, that means position and actions, turn signal switch etc. Just like brake and go pedals. I think the last car with orphan set ups in that area was the T Ford.
All these different and trendy set ups are plain stupid, if you get the screen 'filled in' the time taken fumbling for the wipers can be critical, and to turn the engine off pushing a 'start' button for several seconds is also dumb.

[munks]

Robin Fairservice, on Dec 29 2012, 21:20, said:

If people drive automatics, then why don`t they learn to left foot brake, and then they won`t hit the throttle.

I and others have suggested this previously. I don't even think people need to "learn" it - most people instantly adapt when hopping into concession go-carts.

One argument against is that fuel usage will likely go up, especially with the idiots who will rest their left foot on the brake pedal.

[Magoo]

TF110, on Dec 29 2012, 14:36, said:

There's not enough power in the cars to overcome the brakes.

That's only partly true as far as it goes. With a stationary vehicle, sure.

However, if the car is traveling at highway speed or greater, the driver has one good shot to get the car stopped with one complete, uninterrupted pedal application, and he had better not dick around or equivocate. The rotors and pads can handle a tremendous amount of abuse and heat, but once the brake fluid starts boiling (< 400 F) then there are no brakes, zilch. In the event of a stuck-open throttle or other runaway acceleration, if the driver tries to manage the speed or gradually ride the pedal down, he will boil the fluid and lose the brakes for sure.

In the case of the Highway Patrolman in San Diego, if you look at the photos of the brakes, it is transparently obvious that this is exactly what happened. He had a stuck throttle for whatever reason, thought he had the matter under control, and rode the brake pedal until the fluid boiled-- at which point he had no brakes. Complete discussion of this case, with photos of the damaged brake system, earlier in this thread.

[packapoo]

Lee Nicolle, on Dec 30 2012, 01:06, said:

It should be legislated that all vehicles have the controls in the same basic location, eg ignition switch, gear levers[ and a standardised pattern], wiper controls, that means position and actions, turn signal switch etc. Just like brake and go pedals. I think the last car with orphan set ups in that area was the T Ford.
All these different and trendy set ups are plain stupid, if you get the screen 'filled in' the time taken fumbling for the wipers can be critical, and to turn the engine off pushing a 'start' button for several seconds is also dumb.

Oh dear, spec series Mum and Dad saloons.
Brings a whole new aspect to 'win on Sunday, sell on Monday'.

[Ray Bell]

Quote

Originally posted by TF110
There were no problems with the electronics. It's all a bunch of BS witch hunt, mostly pedal misapplication. Stuck throttles because people stacked floor mats on top of floor mats.....

Go back and read the account of my sister's experience with this...

Then apologise.

[Magoo]

TF110, on Dec 29 2012, 14:36, said:

There were no problems with the electronics. It's all a bunch of BS witch hunt, mostly pedal misapplication. Stuck throttles because people stacked floor mats on top of floor mats.

We know that's not true. Toyota itself identified a problem with the factory floor mats that created a forced-open throttle condition, and the company issued several recalls to correct it.

[Ray Bell]

I believe most of that was a smokescreen...

Get the cars in, pin back the mats, but while they're there flash the ECU with a fix too.

[TF110]

Ray Bell, on Dec 29 2012, 20:04, said:

Go back and read the account of my sister's experience with this...

Then apologise.

I don't care for your sister, I don't know your sister. I do know and care for the facts, and when Toyota, NASA and the NHTSA say there's nothing wrong with the electronics, there's nothing wrong with the electronics. Not to be rude, but spare me. http://pressroom.toy...on theories.htm.

Magoo, on Dec 29 2012, 23:42, said:

We know that's not true. Toyota itself identified a problem with the factory floor mats that created a forced-open throttle condition, and the company issued several recalls to correct it.

I never said there wasn't a recall, or that there were no stuck throttles. Only that the reasons I said were causes for it. So your point is pointless. Read here for the details http://pressroom.toy...article_id=1844. Also note that by PUMPING the brakes can you deplete the brake vacuum. Not by firmly holding the brake.

Ray Bell, on Dec 30 2012, 01:28, said:

I believe most of that was a smokescreen...

Get the cars in, pin back the mats, but while they're there flash the ECU with a fix too.

You believe what you want. But when the guy that was looking for the same thing you claim couldn't find it- I think your argument is dead- http://www.nytimes.c...;pagewanted=all

Quote

“The verdict is in. There is no electronic-based cause for unintended high-speed acceleration in Toyotas. Period.”

Edited by TF110, 30 December 2012 - 10:17.

[Magoo]

TF110, on Dec 30 2012, 05:13, said:

I never said there wasn't a recall, or that there were no stuck throttles. Only that the reasons I said were causes for it. So your point is pointless. Read here for the details http://pressroom.toy...article_id=1844.

That doesn't make any sense. How can the OE floormats be a cause of unintended acceleration/not be a cause at the same time?