289 replies to this topic

[arttidesco]

Thanks Tim that seems to have cleared up several of inconsistent reports

Fabulous pics Marc

[Marc Sproule]

Thank you RJ.

[Tim Murray]

And finally was Georges Boillot's pole winning average speed of 99.860 mph also set in a 3 litre (L5 ?) Peugeot ?

Sorry, didn't spot this earlier. Boillot achieved the fastest qualifying speed but wasn't in pole position as starting positions were determined by drawing lots, which meant that Jean Chassagne's Sunbeam ended up in pole position. 1915 was the first year where grid positions were based on qualifying speeds.

[arttidesco]

Keep them coming Marc

A couple more questions about the 1914 race.

Grid positions were by blind draw, but were the qualifying speeds set with a riding mechanic aboard ?

Finally can anyone name the riding mechanics for the Peugeots of Boillot, Goux and Duray ?

Relevant answers may be credited and used in a forth coming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.

[Tim Murray]

Finally can anyone name the riding mechanics for the Peugeots of Boillot, Goux and Duray ?

The Champ Car Stats site lists them as Brevot, Begin and Mattheys, for Boillot, Goux and Duray respectively:

http://www.champcars.../rm/BrevotM.htm

http://www.champcars...m/BeginEmil.htm

http://www.champcars...rm/Mattheys.htm

However, I do wonder whether 'Brevot' might not actually have been Prévost, who was Boillot's riding mechanic in the French GPs of 1912 and 1913, as noted in this post from Robert Dick in the Riding mechanics in GP before 1925 thread, which also shows that Bégin was Goux's regular mechanic.

[arttidesco]

Thanks again Tim, I'll start to line up the drinks at the bar for the next BPMC Committee meeting

[arttidesco]

Just been reading about the life and times of George C Babcock the driver of the #14 Peugeot in the 1915 Indy 500 seems there is some confusion of his eventual placing Wiki has him classified 12th with 184 laps completed with a Status of "Loose mud apron" which I presume indicates he was stationary at the time the flag fell, while IMS has George classified 17th, 117 laps completed with Status cylinder which Indy Advocate elucidates as "cylinder issues".

I'm guessing the IMS version is closer to a definitive version of what happened.

I wonder if those cylinder issues had any bearing on the damage Doug observed to the motor when it was disassembled.

Conversely could it be that the irregularly spaced cylinders Doug observed had any bearing on the cylinder issues experienced by Babcock ?

Edited by arttidesco, 17 April 2013 - 20:13.

[arttidesco]

Found further evidence that neither wiki nor IMS have entirely the correct picture there is an image of Babcock on the outside of the 3rd row of the grid showing Babcock started in the #16 Peugeot here

[Collombin]

Contemporary reports have him entered in #17, but state that he raced as #16 (as per your pic above). However, he is also listed as being entered as #12, with Jack Lecain (sic) listed as relief driver.

More modern sources (Fox, Popely, Davidson) say he raced as #12. Fox and Popely show pics of the #12 (not from the race itself), with LeCain (sic) in the hot seat.

All agree on the retirement with cylinder trouble after 117 laps.

[Michael Ferner]

First off, Babcock didn't drive the Duray Peugeot. Alphonse Kaufman imported two "new" EX4/L3 models for the 1915 Indy 500, while the Meunier/Duray car wasn't entered that year. The "new" cars were assigned to Frank Galvin and Babcock, but Galvin soon crashed on May 8 and was out with slight injuries (a broken collar bone, although many papers printed the usual "... will probably die..."). Caleb Bragg was then nominated for the repaired car ("slightly bent frame, and the front axle stripped off"), but it is not exactly clear if he actually drove at all. Babcock qualified on Saturday, May 22 at 1'41.4", and Jack Le Cain made the field in the other car two days later at 1'40.6", both easily fast enough. Numbers were then assigned according to qualifying speed, and Le Cain got #12 (he was 11th fastest, but #11 and #13 were not assigned), and Babcock #16 (14th fastest).

1915 was the only year in which the field was limited to three cars per manufacturer, and Kaufman also had a brand new EX5/L45 for Dario Resta as his star entry, and Resta also made the field on Monday, at 1'31.4" and 3rd fastest. All very well, but Bob Burman still ran his EX3/L56 Peugeot, the car Jules Goux had driven to third place the year before, and had qualified on Saturday at 1'37.4", 8th fastest! Burman had the car entered as a "Burman Special", and even had the name "Burman" cast on a new block made for him by Harry Miller's shop, but the officials couldn't be fooled and despite the bitter protests by Kaufman (and Burman), Babcock was now "out", despite having qualified much faster than many of those who were still "in"! So, Le Cain (who was not a regular team member) was quietly withdrawn, and Babcock started the race in #16. Many secondary sources have continued the confusion, but contemporary reports and photographic evidence is clear, #12 was a non-starter.

So far, so good, but the further histories of all these cars are somewhat complex. One of the Kaufman EX4 chassis made another start at Indy, in 1919, but with the engine from Resta's EX5/L45! The other car *may* have ended up with a Frontenac engine. The Meunier/Duray car, on the other hand, is a possible candidate for having served as the basis for the 1916 "Peusun Special", apparently a Peugeot chassis with a Sunbeam engine and a Delage radiator! Historian Jim O'Keefe is hard at work writing a book about the "US Peugeots", and I for one can't wait to read it!!

[arttidesco]

Thanks for the insight E.B. and correction about Babcocks 1915 Peugeot Micheal

[arttidesco]

Is there any car that entered for the Indy 500 before 2008 that does not have a complicated story ?



Photo courtesy Geoffrey Horton.

This week I'll be looking at the Ross Page Special.

It carries a "Miller Ross Page" badge on the front, the Peterson Museum refers to it as a Kurtis Miller while the official results refer to it as a Kurtis Duray (as in Leon who fitted a supercharger) does anyone ideas which is correct ?

Does the Miller on the badge refer to Harry Miller ?

And finally there are several photo's of the #41 driven by Mel Hansen in the 1946 Indy 500, yet the official 1946 Indy results and starting grid show the car as being the #4 is this a clerical error or something more interesting ?

Relevant answers maybe used and credited in a forth coming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses. `

[Michael Ferner]

First off, I wouldn't trust the "official results" of that website since much of what is posted there is just so much twaddle. You have a picture of the car carrying #41? Then fine, don't lose any sleep.

Secondly, the name of the car was "Offenhauser Special", "Page Offenhauser Special", "Ross Page Offenhauser Special", or just plain "Page Special" or "Ross Page Special". For a few races in 1951, it was called the "Bardahl Special" after a snake oil company. It was never named "Miller", "Kurtis" or "Duray", except in retrospect. It's engine was originally a Miller 220 when it was new in 1932, but it was modified to a considerable degree by George Stewart/"Leon Duray" over the years, using many parts manufactured (probably a lot of man hours, too) by the Offenhauser Engineering Company. The chassis frame and most (all?) of the bodywork were built by Frank Kurtis and his employees in his shop, and many other parts were taken from Leon Duray's old Indycar, originally built in 1931 but heavily modified several times. If I recall correctly, it was originally built on a Whippet frame, with original bodywork by Myron Stevens and then Ernie Weill. Dick Doyle may have done most of the assembling for Duray, while I have no idea who was shop foreman for Ross Page (he himself, likely). Like most of the cars of its time, it was a real mongrel of parts, designed and put together by a bevy of mechanics, engineers and sponsors.

I call it the Page/Duray.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 14 May 2013 - 19:32.

[arttidesco]

First off, I wouldn't trust the "official results" of that website since much of what is posted there is just so much twaddle. You have a picture of the car carrying #41? Then fine, don't lose any sleep.

Secondly, the name of the car was "Offenhauser Special", "Page Offenhauser Special", "Ross Page Offenhauser Special", or just plain "Page Special" or "Ross Page Special". For a few races in 1951, it was called the "Bardahl Special" after a snake oil company. It was never named "Miller", "Kurtis" or "Duray", except in retrospect. It's engine was originally a Miller 220 when it was new in 1932, but it was modified to a considerable degree by George Stewart/"Leon Duray" over the years, using many parts manufactured (probably a lot of man hours, too) by the Offenhauser Engineering Company. The chassis frame and most (all?) of the bodywork were built by Frank Kurtis and his employees in his shop, and many other parts were taken from Leon Duray's old Indycar, originally built in 1931 but heavily modified several times. If I recall correctly, it was originally built on a Whippet frame, with original bodywork by Myron Stevens and then Ernie Weill. Dick Doyle may have done most of the assembling for Duray, while I have no idea who was shop foreman for Ross Page (he himself, likely). Like most of the cars of its time, it was a real mongrel of parts, designed and put together by a bevy of mechanics, engineers and sponsors.

I call it the Page/Duray.

! Thanks for these details Michael I had no idea the car was used beyond 1948



Did RPOS qualify for any Indy 500's post '48 ?

[arttidesco]

Thanks to Michael for his help with the Ross Page Special last week.



Photo Courtesy Geoffrey Horton.

Last but one in this months Indy 500 series is the Blakely Oil Special which I believe is a Schroeder chassis with an Offy engine.

The info board displayed with the car says #52 restored by Gary Schroeder was raced by Bobby Ball in 1951 and finished 5th.

Is this the same car raced by Jimmy Bryan to 14th in '53, Andy Linden for Brown Motor Company, class 25th or Len Duncan for Brady, class 31st in '54 or Keith Andrews for McDaniel, clas 20th in 1955 ?

Does anyone know if any attempt was made to qualify the car in the photo for Indy in 1952 and if so by whom and what happened ?

Relevant answers may be credited and used in a forth coming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.

Edited by arttidesco, 20 May 2013 - 08:12.

[Michael Ferner]

Is this the same car raced by Jimmy Bryan to 14th in '53, Andy Linden for Brown Motor Company, class 25th or Len Duncan for Brady, class 31st in '54 or Keith Andrews for McDaniel, clas 20th in 1955 ?

Does anyone know if any attempt was made to qualify the car in the photo for Indy in 1952 and if so by whom and what happened ?

Not quite:

1951 - #5 Blakely's, Bobby Ball, 5th
1952 - #15 Blakely Oil, Bobby Ball, crashed in pratice on May 10, DNQ
1953 - #8 Blakely Oil, Jimmy Bryan, 14th
1954 - #41 McDaniel, Frank Mundy, did not complete driver's test, DNQ
1955 - #31 McDaniel, Duke Nalon (DNQ) => Keith Andrews, 20th

The car was also used a few times in dirt track racing by Tony Bettenhausen in 1954 and Bill Cheesbourg in '56 (as #23 McDaniels), then sold to Dick Whittington (father of Don, Bill and Dale) in '57, who ran it in independent dirt track events in the West and at Pikes Peak as #36 R. D. Whittington. No info post '57.

[arttidesco]

Not quite:

1951 - #5 Blakely's, Bobby Ball, 5th
1952 - #15 Blakely Oil, Bobby Ball, crashed in pratice on May 10, DNQ
1953 - #8 Blakely Oil, Jimmy Bryan, 14th
1954 - #41 McDaniel, Frank Mundy, did not complete driver's test, DNQ
1955 - #31 McDaniel, Duke Nalon (DNQ) => Keith Andrews, 20th

The car was also used a few times in dirt track racing by Tony Bettenhausen in 1954 and Bill Cheesbourg in '56 (as #23 McDaniels), then sold to Dick Whittington (father of Don, Bill and Dale) in '57, who ran it in independent dirt track events in the West and at Pikes Peak as #36 R. D. Whittington. No info post '57.

Danke schöen, Michael

[Michael Ferner]

Bitte schön, Ralph

[Graham Gauld]

Before I forget.

Teddy Pilette - who tried to qualify three times for the Indy 500 - will be at the Speedway this year to celebrate the 100th anniversary of his grandfather, Theodore Pilette, finishing 5th in the 1913 Indy 500. He and his brother Michael have had a trophy made to present to the person who finishes 5th this year.
Meanwhile Grandad THeodore at Indianapolis in 1913



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[arttidesco]

Meanwhile Grandad THeodore at Indianapolis in 1913

Imagine Dario trying to drive a Dallara across the cobbled streets of NYC

[Graham Gauld]

Imagine Dario trying to drive a Dallara across the cobbled streets of NYC ;)

The photo was taken in Indianapolis and not New York . The plates were put on the car in New York when it landed from Europe.

[HistoryFan]

Why did F1 teams like Lotus and drivers like Clark and Hill be interested in the Indy 500 in the 60s, but no F1 teams and driver (okay almost no) in the 50s as it counted to the Driver's Championship?

[Michael Ferner]

Logistics, cultures, preconceived notions... in fact, many things. I don't think that WC points would have held much of an attraction, especially if you consider that you had to miss at least one race in Europe in order to participate. Transatlantic air travel was still very much in its infancy in the fifties, and the cost alone of airfreigthing racing cars over the big pond must've been deterrent enough! (I wouldn't think it's very popular even today!) I suggest you start reading up the adventures of Americans racing in Europe, and vice versa, maybe even from the prewar days. Else, the stories of the late forties/early fifties Temporadas in South America, or the tours of the various South Americans in Europe during that time. Heck, if you're really a "fan of history" as your name suggests, perhaps you should realize that economics were far more important in the fifties than WC points...

[Collombin]

Why did F1 teams like Lotus and drivers like Clark and Hill be interested in the Indy 500 in the 60s, but no F1 teams and driver (okay almost no) in the 50s as it counted to the Driver's Championship?

Michael's covered the second part of the question, and I think the main answer to the first part is $$$$$$$$$.

[Vitesse2]

Logistics, cultures, preconceived notions... in fact, many things. I don't think that WC points would have held much of an attraction, especially if you consider that you had to miss at least one race in Europe in order to participate. Transatlantic air travel was still very much in its infancy in the fifties, and the cost alone of airfreigthing racing cars over the big pond must've been deterrent enough! (I wouldn't think it's very popular even today!)

Logistics is probably the main one, plus the lack of suitable machinery - it wasn't as if you could just roll an Alfetta or 375 out and expect it to be instantly competitive - not to mention the time it took to do it properly: I've been looking at the 1946 race recently and would you believe that Harry Schell didn't even turn up until May 22nd? Even then, he was still a day ahead of his car! Varzi and Villoresi were still to attempt their rookie tests on the 28th ... unbelievable, eh?

No European company had built a blown 3-litre since 1939/40 and the only decent unblown 4.5 was the Ferrari. Post-1955 nobody had an instantly useable car or engine - although Maserati made a reasonable try at it. I still think it's a shame Mercedes didn't take the W154s over in '52 or '53 though: they might still have given the Yanks a run for their money!

[arttidesco]

Thanks to Mr Fines for his help with this weeks Schroeder post.



Photo courtesy Geoffrey Horton

Last Indy 500 post for this year will be about the LHD Bardahl Kurtis 500G which appears to be the #19 car Jack Turner drove to 11th in 1957, in the same race Al Keller had an accident in his similar #16 left hooker.

Can anyone tell me which chassis Al drove in the 1958 Indy 500 I know it was the #52 and LHD was it his #16 or the #19 from 57 ?

Also can anyone enlighten me as to why LHD was chosen in the first place, all the other Kurtis entries were RHD in '57 and '58 so far as I have been able to ascertain and Paul Russo was in a RHD Bardahl Kurtis in '59 ?

Relevant answers may be credited and used in a forth coming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.

Edited by arttidesco, 24 May 2013 - 08:04.

[Collombin]

Can anyone tell me which chassis Al drove in the 1958 Indy 500 I know it was the #52 and LHD was it his #16 or the #19 from 57 ?

Hi Ralph,

It was the #19.

[arttidesco]

Thanks E.B.

[Henri Greuter]

No European company had built a blown 3-litre since 1939/40 and the only decent unblown 4.5 was the Ferrari. Post-1955 nobody had an instantly useable car or engine - although Maserati made a reasonable try at it. I still think it's a shame Mercedes didn't take the W154s over in '52 or '53 though: they might still have given the Yanks a run for their money!

I have my doubts if Merc would have done well with the W154. Don't forget that that engine wasn't built for the prologued periods of hish speed revving that Indy required. Mercedes really should have to work on the engines first to make them suitable for such conditions.
Duke Nalon did tell me that the car he drove in 1948 was the smoothest, most comfortable ride he ever had at the Speedway.

The Ferrari 375 engine wasn't very suitable for the speedway. Power enough but woefully down on torque compared with an Offy. Cars were passing the Ferrari's when coming out of corners 2 and 4.

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 25 May 2013 - 17:56.

[Vitesse2]

I have my doubts if Merc would have done well with the W154. Don't forget that that engine wasn't built for the prologued periods of hish speed revving that Indy required. Mercedes really should have to work on the engines first to make them suitable for such conditions.

Henri

I'm sure they came to the same conclusions, Henri. They'd had problems at Reims in '39, but seemed to have solved them by Bremgarten - both high speed circuits. Equally, they'd have wanted to do it properly, so with the Mille Miglia at the beginning of May and Le Mans less than a month later I suspect they probably felt a month in Indiana wasn't time well spent!

Still, I can dream ...

[Roger Clark]

Karl Ludvigsen, in Quicksilver Century, says that Daimler-Benz seriously considered an Indianapolis entry in both 1938 and 39. The European calendar was thin in both years. In 1938 they reached the point of allocating specific cars to Caracciola, von Brauchitsch and Lang, ordering tyres from Continental and booking booking space on a sailing from Bremerhaven. The entry was cancelled because of the high oil consumption of the early M154.

They also intended to enter in 1951 but this was cancelled following the failure of the campaign in Argentina.

Later still, they considered an entry of a streamlined 3-litre W196. They believed that it could be competitive if given 20% more power and 31% less weight or 11% less weight and 40% more power. Ludvigsen says that the latter course was well within the capabilities of Daimler-Benz.

[HistoryFan]

Carlos Munoz drive the Indy Lights and Indy-500 race in Indy. Both he could win with Munoz is championship leader in Lights and starts from 2nd in the 500.

But he finished just 4th in Lights.

Has anyone won the 500 and one of the support race in the same year?

[Vitesse2]

Karl Ludvigsen, in Quicksilver Century, says that Daimler-Benz seriously considered an Indianapolis entry in both 1938 and 39. The European calendar was thin in both years. In 1938 they reached the point of allocating specific cars to Caracciola, von Brauchitsch and Lang, ordering tyres from Continental and booking booking space on a sailing from Bremerhaven. The entry was cancelled because of the high oil consumption of the early M154.

I'm still not totally convinced by that, Roger!

http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=4941705 et seq ...

Furthermore, I think it's very probable that they may have originally been hoping to use the LZ-130 Graf Zeppelin II to take the drivers across the Atlantic. After the LZ-129 Hindenburg crashed Congress had blocked the export of helium to Germany under the Neutrality Act, but it was not until May 11th 1938 that finally "President Roosevelt's press secretary Stephen Early announced that as the Act required the "unanimous" consent of the Control Board to approve the export of helium to Germany, the President had concluded that he was "without legal power to override the judgment of any one of the six [members] and direct the sale of helium for export." In response to this statement, Dr. Eckener commented later that same day that "should this decision be final, I am afraid it means the death sentence for commercial lighter-than-air craft."" (quoted from Wikipedia)

As it turned out, LZ-130 didn't fly until September anyway, but if helium had been available I'm pretty sure there would have been a push to complete it earlier in order to resume commercial services in 1938. As Hans told us here, the original intention was for Caracciola and Rosemeyer (and presumably Seaman and von Delius) to take in both races in 1937:

http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=1839846

[Calimom]

Photo Ed Arnaudin

B Squared kindly informed me last year Colin Riley is probably sitting in the #92 Lotus Ford 29, I did not realise when I posted that photo that the photographers son Steve had sent me a second photo with someone else in Team Lotus overalls driving the tow tractor. Does anyone know who the mechanic on the tractor might be ? And following on does any one know what became of Jim's Lotus 29 ?

Relevant answers may be credited and used in a forth coming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.

Yes, that is Colin Riley sitting in the Lotus. He was my father. He passed 9/20/13

[raceannouncer2003]

I saw a scratch-built model at a toy show a while back.  The model was yellow, #41, True-Value Pacesetter Special.  The builder had also done the 1952 Troy Ruttman Indy winner, and the #41 car appeared to be from the same era.  Was there a #41 True-Value car?

 

Vince H.

[arttidesco]

It's May so it must be time to awake this wonderful thread

 

Wondering if anyone knows the circumstances of Phil 'Red' Shafers absence from the 1933 Indy 500 ?

 

Was he one of the 21 non qualifiers perhaps, I ask because the #8 that year driven by H W Stubblefield appears to be an Abels Fink Auto Rigling Buick that a contemporary photo suggests was a Shafer Spl of the type driven by Phil in both 1931 and 1932.

 

[url=http://postimage.org/]

 

Also wondering if anyone can confirm if the Rigling Buick owned and driven by Heinz Bachmann is, or is a replica of, the car Phil drove at Indy  in 1934 ?

Edited by arttidesco, 12 May 2015 - 19:48.

[Vitesse2]

Shafer was first alternate in 1933 - qualification speed of 107.972mph - but I think you'd need someone with an intimate knowledge of the Bump Day rules of the day to explain why he wasn't in the field of 42. Makes no sense to me!

[arttidesco]

Shafer was first alternate in 1933 - qualification speed of 107.972mph -  Makes no sense to me!

 

The price of being on the "bubble" on "bump" day, one way to keep the punters guessing and the press employed ;-)

[Michael Ferner]

A little TNF search produces this post, http://forums.autosp...eyer/?p=3322884, explaining the particularly complicated and confusing story of the 1933 qualifying process. And yes, Stubby Stubblefield drove the exact same car in 1933 that Phil Shafer had driven in the two previous years, while Shafer himself drove a new, like car that he would drive again in 1934. Heinz Bachmann and his restorer are convinced to have that second Shafer/Buick (the one built in '33), and so far I can't see any reason to doubt it.

[arttidesco]

A little TNF search produces this post, http://forums.autosp...eyer/?p=3322884, explaining the particularly complicated and confusing story of the 1933 qualifying process. And yes, Stubby Stubblefield drove the exact same car in 1933 that Phil Shafer had driven in the two previous years, while Shafer himself drove a new, like car that he would drive again in 1934. Heinz Bachmann and his restorer are convinced to have that second Shafer/Buick (the one built in '33), and so far I can't see any reason to doubt it.

 

I did search, but obviously not hard enough   

 

Thanks for retelling the hideously complicated story of qualifying in 1933