8620 replies to this topic

[SJ Lambert]

Just because we can.

 

Without the aid of the internet to research - let's keep it at least to a national level to avoid getting too esoteric.

 

Limit of three guesses by any one participant per question.

 

Whoever gets it right sets the next motorsport question.

 

 

[SJ Lambert]

Name the first man to ever score a F1 World Championship point in a four wheel drive car.

[Michael Ferner]

Johnny Servoz-Gavin. What about national level, F1??

[Michael Ferner]

Now this is "national":

Who finished last in the first ever World of Outlaws points race?

[ensign14]

Doug Wolfgang?

[Collombin]

It'll either be Steve Kinser or someone I've never heard of, so I have to go with the former.

[Charlieman]

What is World of Outlaws? Is it like when UK hillclimbers and European racers have a go?

 

Without a web search, I don't have a clue about World of Outlaws.

[Michael Ferner]

E.B.'s the best! Good deduction, too

Your turn

[Collombin]

Thank you! Now a fluffy bit of numerical trivia.

Recently, Lewis Hamilton notched up his 44th world championship race win, whilst driving a car numbered 44. Many drivers have done this previously (xth win in car numbered x), but Lewis is only the second driver to have done it more than once - having scored his 2nd WDC race win in car number 2.

The other driver to have done it more than once actually did it 3 times. Name him.

Edited by E.B., 15 July 2016 - 18:21.

[Michael Ferner]

Graham Hill?

[ensign14]

Jackie Stewart?

[Collombin]

No to both.

[Michael Ferner]

I think you missed another one who did it only twice - Jody Scheckter!

0th win with #0, and 3rd win with #3...







...

[D28]

I think you missed another one who did it only twice - Jody Scheckter!

0th win with #0, and 3rd win with #3...






...

Very sharp answer!

[Vitesse2]

Denny Hulme. Germany 1967 (second win); Mexico 1969 (fifth win); Sweden 1973 (seventh win).

 

 

 

[Collombin]

Indeedy.

Number 5 is the most "popular" x value - eight drivers have taken their 5th win in number 5.

The lowest x value yet to be achieved is 10, and the highest that had been achieved prior to Lewis' 44 was Senna in number 12 (Hungary 1988), although he came one Japanese DQ from claiming his 27th in number 27 (Italy 1990).

Over to Richard ..........

[Vitesse2]

What number - to three decimal places - is common to Donald Campbell's 1964 Land Speed Record and John Cobb's 1947 Land Speed Record? Cryptic clue: there are two possible answers, although both are correct.

[Ray Bell]

That would be nothing to do with the cost, right?

[Michael Ferner]

Engine capacity?

Indeedy.

Number 5 is the most "popular" x value - eight drivers have taken their 5th win in number 5.

The lowest x value yet to be achieved is 10, and the highest that had been achieved prior to Lewis' 44 was Senna in number 12 (Hungary 1988), although he came one Japanese DQ from claiming his 27th in number 27 (Italy 1990).

Over to Richard ..........

Just out of curiosity, who won his first GP with #1?

[Collombin]

I said world championship races, so think of a couple of drivers wearing number 1 by dint of being the defending US National champions and I think you will know them!

[Vitesse2]

That would be nothing to do with the cost, right?

You're right. It wouldn't.

 

Engine capacity?

Nope.

[Michael Ferner]

I said world championship races, so think of a couple of drivers wearing number 1 by dint of being the defending US National champions and I think you will know them!

Ahh, yes, indeed...
 

What number - to three decimal places - is common to Donald Campbell's 1964 Land Speed Record and John Cobb's 1947 Land Speed Record? Cryptic clue: there are two possible answers, although both are correct.

Richard, a guess: since Campbell recorded identical times on both of his runs, was his speed the same as Cobb's fastest? The number would then be 403.135 (mph) or 648.784 (kph).

Edited by Michael Ferner, 16 July 2016 - 18:35.

[Michael Ferner]

Uh, I cheated and googled it to find I was right. But I have to admit that I needed to cheat "a little bit" even before, because being a know-nothing about LSR attempts, I looked up a list of LSR in a book I have, only to find Donald Campbell wasn't even listed! So, I put in "Donald Campbell" and 1964 in a newspaper archive, to find the story about both runs being the same speed, plus a cryptic note that he was disappointed about not reaching Craig Breedlove's speed, but still it was feted as a LSR - now I am really confused!! Was it, or wasn't it?

[Vitesse2]

Richard, a guess: since Campbell recorded identical times on both of his runs, was his speed the same as Cobb's fastest? The number would then be 403.135 (mph) or 648.784 (kph).

Indeed, Michael. Well guessed! It's a remarkable coincidence, but Campbell's speed was exactly the same as Cobb's faster run. Unfortunately, Cobb couldn't manage it again and his average ended up just short of his 400mph target. He was the first to break 600kph though.

 

Breedlove's record wasn't recognised at the time because the FIA rules said that cars had to be wheel-driven. That changed in 1965 and Breedlove duly took the LSR to over 600mph with Spirit of America.

[Michael Ferner]

All right, I'll make it easy: What were the last names of the first two drivers to retire from the 1908 Tourist Trophy?

[AAA-Eagle]

Stirling, Moss.

[AAA-Eagle]

And back to the theme of Donald Campbell's 1964 Land Speed Record it was a surprise even to Donald himself. That was his first reaction, according to Evan Green, when he was told of his speed after second run:

 

At the end of the strip, he stopped; certain he had been too slow.

“That wretched track,” he growled.

“The car was so good. It wanted to go so much faster, but we were sinking.”

A man came running from the radio tent. “Four hundred and three,” he shouted.

“Thank you, my friend,” Campbell said icily. He was not in the mood for strangers bearing old information. “I knew the time for the first run.”

“No, no,” said the man, almost too excited to speak. "It’s 403 for both runs. That's the average. You’ve got the record.”

And in that fashion, Donald Campbell learned of the end of his long quest for the world land speed record.

In fact, the average was 403.1 miles per hour (648.7km/h). A timekeeper later told me the Bluebird passed the end marker at more than 430 mph, still accelerating.

 

The full story of Campbell's 1964 LSR, as described by brilliant Evan Green, is here: Donald Campbell and his Bluebird car world speed record: An inside look at the man, the fear, the Bluebird and the lake. My personal coincidence here is that today in the morning I decided to start re-reading of marvellous book by Evan Green about his experience in 1974 London-Sahara-Munich World Cup Rally "A Boot Full Of Right Arms".

 

And finally to end with coincidences: it's already 17th July in Australia, thus we are marking the 52nd anniversary of Campbell's 1964 LSR!

 

Also here is an interesting note made by Adrian Newey about Bluebird CN7 on January 2012 edition of Racecar Engineering magazine:

 

I think in terms of one of the biggest advances made, although it was not strictly speaking a racing car, was Bluebird. Arguably for its time it was the most advanced vehicle.’ The Bluebird Proteus CN7 was the car that Donald Campbell used to set a record of 403.1mph in July, 1964, the last outright land speed record car that was wheel driven. It was a revolutionary car that featured an advanced aluminium honeycomb chassis, featured fully independent suspension and four-wheel drive. It also had a head-up display for Campbell. ‘It was the first car to properly recognise, and use, ground effects,’ says Newey. ‘The installation of the jet turbines is a nightmare, and it was constructed using a monocoque working with a lot of lightweight structures. It was built in a way that you build an aircraft, but at the time motor racing teams weren’t doing that.’ The car featured a Bristol-Siddeley Proteus gas turbine engine that developed over 4,000bhp. It was a two-spool, reverse flow gas turbine engine that was specially modified to have a drive shaft at each end of the engine, to separate fixed ratio gearboxes on each axle. It was designed to do 500mph, but surface conditions, brought about by adverse weather in 1963 and 1964, meant that its fastest recorded time was nearly 100mph short of its hypothetical capability. It is interesting to note that, should an exact replica be built today, and it did achieve its potential, it would beat the existing record of 470.444mph set by Don Vesco’s Vesco Turbinator in 2001, and still be the fastest wheel-driven car today.

Edited by AAA-Eagle, 17 July 2016 - 10:55.

[Michael Ferner]

Well, that shows how much I know about LSR cars - engine capacity!! :blush:

Your turn, Eagle.

[AAA-Eagle]

I said world championship races, so think of a couple of drivers wearing number 1 by dint of being the defending US National champions and I think you will know them!

Johnnie Woodrow Parsons being first at 1950 International Sweepstakes bearing #1. James Ernest Bryan would done the same thing eight years later.

[Michael Ferner]

Indeed, Michael. Well guessed! It's a remarkable coincidence, but Campbell's speed was exactly the same as Cobb's faster run. Unfortunately, Cobb couldn't manage it again ...

Actually, my source says, it was the second mile that went over 400 mph. So, three consecutive miles at 8.93 seconds

[AAA-Eagle]

Name the driver who promissed to his father that if he won the Indy 500 he would retire from racing. But when he achived his goal and won the Indianapolis 500 Miler, his father told him not to retire: "Since you won the biggest race in the world and if you still like what you are doing, it will be fine with me if you will keep on doing it".

[philippe7]

Name the first man to ever score a F1 World Championship point in a four wheel drive car.

 

 

Johnny Servoz-Gavin. What about national level, F1??

 

Servoz-Gavin was indeed driving a Matra MS 84 at Mosport in 1969 - but according to many trustworthy testimonials which have emerged since,  the front wheel transmission was disconnected for the occasion .... So it's debatable wether the point was really scored in a "four wheel drive" car ...

[Tim Murray]

As I understand it from reading the race reports in Autosport, it was only at the last race of the season in Mexico that the drive to the front wheels was completely disconnected, but the torque split to the front wheels had been reducing from race to race.

[SJ Lambert]

And there I was, trying to set an uncontroversial opening question!

[philippe7]

Well if the writers of Autosport at the time were aware that there was some "adjustments" made to the front wheel drive it's certainly a credit to their professionalism - since I had only heard the story fairly recently from Matra insiders, who seemed to say that it was somehow a "secret" at the time. Apparently Matra ( like the other manufacturers ) soon realised that the 4-wheel drive road was a dead end ( at the time, with available technology and for lack of development, of course.... ) but since they ( and Tyrrell ) wanted to run Servoz in the three North American end of season races, and as there only ever were two MS80's completed, the only available car was the MS 84.  From what I was told, the FW drive was "disconnected" for the three races, but it might be a little oversimplified

 

On the other hand, the MS 84 was in real 4WD configuration when Beltoise had to use it at the British GP ( having given up his own MS 80 to Stewart ) and the race was a nightmare for poor JPB who finished I think 7 laps down, with the added handicap of his bad arm which made it hard to cope with the very heavy steering ....

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by AAA-Eagle
.....in the morning I decided to start re-reading of marvellous book by Evan Green about his experience in 1974 London-Sahara-Munich World Cup Rally "A Boot Full Of Right Arms".....

A truly worthwhile read!

[Tim Murray]

From what I was told, the FW drive was "disconnected" for the three races, but it might be a little oversimplified.

It could well be that, at the time, the Matra people didn't want the world to know that they'd given up on 4WD, so made out it was still in use when it wasn't. However, in the wet practice session at Watkins Glen, Stewart did a number of laps in the MS84. There wouldn't have been much point in this unless he was evaluating how 4WD performed in wet conditions.

[philippe7]

 However, in the wet practice session at Watkins Glen, Stewart did a number of laps in the MS84. There wouldn't have been much point in this unless he was evaluating how 4WD performed in wet conditions.

 

Didn't know that. You've certainly got a valid point there.

[Michael Ferner]

Well, nobody seems to be trying to answer Eagle's question, so I'll start the ball rolling: Joe Boyer?

[Collombin]

Well, nobody seems to be trying to answer Eagle's question, so I'll start the ball rolling: Joe Boyer?

I'm thinking it's the sort of obscure story that might only be known via a biography or autobiography, so my guesses will consist entirely of 500 winners whose books I haven't read! I will start off with Pete de Paolo.

[Vitesse2]

I'm thinking it's the sort of obscure story that might only be known via a biography or autobiography, so my guesses will consist entirely of 500 winners whose books I haven't read! I will start off with Pete de Paolo.

I think you might be right there. Pete's autobiography Wall Smacker is available for just £2.49 on Kindle, BTW. Quite an entertaining read.

[AAA-Eagle]

Good efforts, but the answer is still to be found. Clue: this driver was defending US National Champion when he won the International Sweepstakes.

[cooper997]

With the Bluebird concidences of today, I may as well add another. I stumbled upon this while looking for something else.

 

 

And if John Cooper was still with us, he'd be 93 today.

 

Stephen

[SJ Lambert]

Nice Elfin!!!

[Collombin]

Hmmm. Haven't read Wilbur Shaw's book either, but he wasn't national champ at the time of his first 500 win. Jimmy Bryan doesn't really fit, as he did semi retire at about that time.

So, bookless though he may well be, the wink makes me think it's related to the discussion from my earlier question yesterday, so I'll go with Johnnie Parsons.

[AAA-Eagle]

With the Bluebird concidences of today, I may as well add another. I stumbled upon this while looking for something else.

 

 

And if John Cooper was still with us, he'd be 93 today.

 

Stephen

The photo is from 1963 unsuccessful attempt to set LSR at Lake Eyre. The driver of Elfin Catalina is Ted Townsend, a Dunlop tyre fitter. This Elfin chassis was built for Dunlop Tyres for use on the Lake Eyre salt to determine certain characteristics for the tyres that were fitted to Donald Campbell's Bluebird land speed record attempts during 1963. The Elfin was fitted with 'miniature Bluebird tyres" and driven over the salt to determine factors such as co-efficient of friction and adhesion using a Tapley meter. The Tapley Brake Test Meter is a scientific instrument of very high accuracy, still used today. It consists of a finely balanced pendulum free to respond to any changes in speed or angle, working through a quadrant gear train to rotate a needle round a dial. The vehicle is then driven along a level road at about 20 miles per hour, and the brakes fully applied. When the vehicle has stopped the brake efficiency reading can be taken from the figure shown by the recording needle on the inner brake scale, whilst stopping distance readings are taken from the outer scale figures.

It is believed that the Elfin was running a (relatively) normal pushrod 1500cc Cortina engine with A3 cam and Weber DCOE carburettors for the Bluebird support runs.

 

And yes, the number of Elfin's chassis was '6313'. Had Donald Campbell been aware of this? Certainly that could explain for him how on earth the torrential rain came to a place, where rain had not fallen in the previous 20 years...

 

Anyway when 1963 Bluebird record attempts were completed, the Bluebird Tyre designer Mr Andrew Mustard (of North Brighton, Adelaide) bought the Elfin from Dunlop. The Elfin was in quite poor condition as a result of its work on the Lake Eyre Salt, with the magnesium based suspension struts quite corroded. A restoration took place over the end of 1963 and into 1964, and a single Norman supercharger fitted. The vehicle was then used at Mallala Race Circuit, and for record attempts for 1500cc vehicles in 1964 using the access road alongside the main hangars at Edinburgh Airfield (Weapons Research Establishment) at Salisbury, South Australia. The northern gates of the airfield were opened by the Australian Federal Police to give extra stopping time. At this time the Norman supercharged Elfin had:

• a single air-cooled Norman supercharger, driven by v-belts and developing around 14psi. The v-belts were short lived, burning out in around thirty seconds,

• four exhaust stubs, with the middle two siamesed,

• twin Amal carburettors,

• a heavily modified head by Alexander Rowe (a Speedway legend and co-founder of the Ramsay-Rowe Special midget) running around 5:1 compression and a solid copper head gasket/decompression plate. The head had been worked within an inch of it’s life, and shone like a mirror. The head gasket on the other hand was a weak spot, lasting only twenty seconds before failing. As runs had to be performed back-to-back within an hour, the team became very good at removing the head, annealing the copper gasket with an oxy torch and buttoning it all up again... inside thirty minutes. 

 

The Norman supercharged Elfin, operated by Mustard and Michael McInerney set the following Australian national records from it’s Salisbury runs on October 11th, 1964:

• the flying start kilometre record (16.21s, 138mph),

• the flying start mile record (26.32s, 137mph), and

• the standing start mile record (34.03s, 106mph).

 

This was not the Elfin’s only association with Norman superchargers. The Elfin was later modified to have:

• dual air-cooled Norman superchargers (identical to the single Norman used earlier), mounted over the gearbox. The superchargers were run in parallel, with a chain drive. The chain drive was driven by a sprocket on the crank, running up to a slave shaft that ran across to the back of the gearbox to drive the first supercharger, the down to drive the second. The boost pressure in this configuration had risen to 29psi,

• two 2" SU carburettors (with four fuel bowls) jetted for methanol by Peter Dodd (another Australian Speedway legend and owner of Auto Carburettor Services),

• a straight cut 1st gear in a VW gearbox. The clutch struggled to keep up with the torque being put out by the Norman blown Elfin, and was replaced with a 9” grinding disk, splined in the centre and fitted with brass buttons... it was either all in, or all out. 

 

In the twin Norman supercharged guise the vehicle was driven by McInerney to pursue the standing ¼ mile, standing 400m and flying kilometre records in October 1965. Sadly, the twin-Norman supercharged Elfin no longer holds those records, as the ¼ mile and flying kilometre (together with a few more records) were set at this time by Alex Smith in a Valano Special.

 

The day following the 1965 speed record trials (Labour Day October 1965), McInerney raced the twin-Norman supercharged Elfincar at Mallala as a "Formule Libre" as there was insufficient time to revert the engine back to Formula II specifications. The photo below shows the McInerney in the Elfin at Mallala Race Circuit:

 

 

The car was used for training the South Australian Police Force driving instructors in advanced handling techniques, and regularly used at Mallala and other venues (closed meetings for the Austin 7 club, etc). It was sold by Mustard to Dean Rainsford of South Australia in 1966, though sadly without the Norman supercharger (by then it was running the mildly tuned Cortina engine again). The vehicle continued adding to it’s racing history, with Rainsford droving it to a win in the 1966 Australian 1½ Litre Championship Round 4 (the Victorian Trophy, Sandown, Victoria on the 16th of October 1966).  In the ensuing twentysix years it passed through nine more owners before Rainsford re-acquired it in 1993. After many years of fossicking, Rainsford has located the original Mustard/McInerney supercharged engine used in the 1965 record attempts, but sadly without it’s Norman supercharger.

[AAA-Eagle]

Hmmm. Haven't read Wilbur Shaw's book either, but he wasn't national champ at the time of his first 500 win. Jimmy Bryan doesn't really fit, as he did semi retire at about that time.

So, bookless though he may well be, the wink makes me think it's related to the discussion from my earlier question yesterday, so I'll go with Johnnie Parsons.

Bingo! There have been only three defending US National champions to win their first Indy: Johnnie Parsons in 1950, Jimmy Bryan in 1958 and A. J. Foyt in 1961, and you've absolutely correctly determined that it was Johnnie Parsons. He had promised his father, who he deeply admired, that if he won the “500" he would retire from racing. After 1950 Indy 500 victory Johnnie, living up to his promise, called his father following the race and asked if he should retire. His father's response was fairly simple and to the point: he could continue racing! Johnnie really thanked his father and later said that this father's decision was as important to him as winning the 500...

 

Your turn mate!

[Collombin]

Thank you!

What did the 1968 Belgian GP have in common with most other races in world championship history, but that nevertheless made it unique in the 1968 championship season?

[Kenzclass]

AJ Foyt?

[SJ Lambert]

Well if the writers of Autosport at the time were aware that there was some "adjustments" made to the front wheel drive it's certainly a credit to their professionalism - since I had only heard the story fairly recently from Matra insiders, who seemed to say that it was somehow a "secret" at the time. Apparently Matra ( like the other manufacturers ) soon realised that the 4-wheel drive road was a dead end ( at the time, with available technology and for lack of development, of course.... ) but since they ( and Tyrrell ) wanted to run Servoz in the three North American end of season races, and as there only ever were two MS80's completed, the only available car was the MS 84.  From what I was told, the FW drive was "disconnected" for the three races, but it might be a little oversimplified

 

On the other hand, the MS 84 was in real 4WD configuration when Beltoise had to use it at the British GP ( having given up his own MS 80 to Stewart ) and the race was a nightmare for poor JPB who finished I think 7 laps down, with the added handicap of his bad arm which made it hard to cope with the very heavy steering ....

 

 

Johhny's first point for the season  - drive shafts appear to still be there!