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McLaren Honda MP4-31 Part V


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#1 Disgrace

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 00:53

Part IV.



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#2 Marklar

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 00:56

McLaren threads are so special that they are stil locked after 80 pages ;)

#3 Brazzers

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 01:37

McLaren threads are so special that they are stil locked after 80 pages ;)

 

All about unlocking the potential McLaren have told us over the years. 



#4 bogi

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 07:22

Contribution just to annoy some people.

 

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#5 argiriano

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 07:24

So to sums things up, McLaren-Honda will continue to develop its MP4-31 car after the summer brake with expected/rumored updates:

-  ICE upgrade + new fuel from Mobil1 (most probably Spa as both drivers need new ICE)

-  aero updates to compliment increased power with added some dirty downforce (most probably after Spa/Monza because those tracks still need that efficient downforce)

-  another PU upgrade later in the season, rumored to be on ERS (most probably in Malaysia, just before Honda home race and because they need to switch focus on 2017 PU as soon as they can)

- another fuel upgrade by the end of the year (I can see that comes at Suzuka like a final push from team and partners for 2016)

 

And also Hulk suggesting a intense fight between FI, Williams and McLaren `till the end of the year, describing MP4-31 as pretty good car is another reason to be optimistic. 

 

Let`s hope this part of the topic will be much more pleasant then previous ones!  :cool:



#6 TomNokoe

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 07:37

The hopeless pursuit of 4th in the WCC ;)

#7 Oblivion

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 08:04

So to sums things up, McLaren-Honda will continue to develop its MP4-31 car after the summer brake with expected/rumored updates:

-  ICE upgrade + new fuel from Mobil1 (most probably Spa as both drivers need new ICE)

-  aero updates to compliment increased power with added some dirty downforce (most probably after Spa/Monza because those tracks still need that efficient downforce)

-  another PU upgrade later in the season, rumored to be on ERS (most probably in Malaysia, just before Honda home race and because they need to switch focus on 2017 PU as soon as they can)

- another fuel upgrade by the end of the year (I can see that comes at Suzuka like a final push from team and partners for 2016)

 

And also Hulk suggesting a intense fight between FI, Williams and McLaren `till the end of the year, describing MP4-31 as pretty good car is another reason to be optimistic. 

 

Let`s hope this part of the topic will be much more pleasant then previous ones!  :cool:

 

I hope that we will not see any fight between Williams, FI and McLaren - I want McLarent to jump them rapidly and to catch Ferrari by the end of the year



#8 CPR

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 10:27

Why McLaren isn't involved with the tyre testing:
 
http://www.espn.co.u...raction-mclaren
 

The three teams have all developed mule cars to accommodate the wider rubber and simulate the increased downforce loads in 2017, but McLaren opted to reject the invitation to do the same.

"In the end you have to balance the costs and the distraction for your resources," McLaren racing director Eric Boullier explained. "Where we are now obviously, we believe it was better not to get distracted by doing a new car and [Pirelli] testing.

"There is some learning to do the testing, but most of the data is shared to the non-testing teams and I think that, today, we are not where we want to be so we'd be better focused on making our car faster."



#9 loki0420

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 10:37

I hope that we will not see any fight between Williams, FI and McLaren - I want McLarent to jump them rapidly and to catch Ferrari by the end of the year

It should be 0.5-0.8 second jump - can't see it happening through in season updates at this stage of the year. Confident 4th car is all we can ask for and then strategy gamble/weather/others errors may help us move further than 7th place in race. But realistically we won't catch neither FI nor Williams in CC i'm afraid.



#10 SophieB

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 10:39

Some bloke on twitter has been making stuff again ;)

 

McLaren Retweeted Owen Davies

This, Owen, is epic. Thank you for creating such a cool film. #FansLikeNoOther #BelieveInMcLarenHonda

McLaren Retweeted Owen DaviesThis, Owen, is epic. Thank you for creating such a cool film. #FansLikeNoOther #BelieveInMcLarenHonda

 

@McLarenF1 I hope you like the #F1 fan film I made, enjoy your well deserved summer break1f60a.png1f3c1.png

 



#11 CPR

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 10:40

Premium article effectively praising Eric Boullier (and suggesting Ferrari need to poach him):
http://www.autosport...-needs-boullier
 

Anecdotally it seems he has succeeded. McLaren's technical departments are working cohesively, to a point where chassis conception and development is now strong and consistent again. Team meetings are productive, deficiencies identified in order to progress rather than simply apportion blame.

For a good indication of McLaren's rate of development just look at this season. Despite an enormous horsepower disadvantage it's already near enough the fourth best team on the grid now (in terms of general competitiveness rather than points), even though it ended last season ninth in the world championship.

If the Honda engine could match Ferrari or Mercedes, McLaren would be a frontrunner. Ferrari already has the benefit of a decent engine in the back of its car, thanks to sterling work by new technical head Mattia Binotto and his old department. This is perhaps why he has been chosen (at least for now) to fill Allison's shoes.


I doubt he'd want to leave just as things come good.



#12 Marklar

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 10:55

Some bloke on twitter has been making stuff again ;)
 



McLaren ‏@McLarenF1  3h3 hours ago
McLaren Retweeted Owen Davies

This, Owen, is epic. Thank you for creating such a cool film. #FansLikeNoOther #BelieveInMcLarenHonda


3 hours ago
McLaren Retweeted Owen DaviesThis, Owen, is epic. Thank you for creating such a cool film. #FansLikeNoOther#BelieveInMcLarenHonda
Owen Davies@f1mclarenfan


 
@McLarenF1 I hope you like the #F1 fan film I made, enjoy your well deserved summer break1f60a.png1f3c1.png

 
https://www.youtube....eature=youtu.be
Owen, you are famous now :D

#13 SophieB

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 10:57

Has Eric stopped doing those notes to the press in that delightfully purple prose because I just realised I haven't seen one in ages and now I'm sad he might have stopped. :(



#14 CPR

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 10:58

I hope that we will not see any fight between Williams, FI and McLaren - I want McLaren to jump them rapidly and to catch Ferrari by the end of the year

 
It seems like I was waiting for a year for the team to finally overtake STR... and now we suddenly seem to be fairly easily ahead of them. And strangely we've been ahead of Williams in the race for several GPs now. I dunno what Spa and Monza will bring but those circuits will emphasise the MGU-H and peak power much more than others. If the PU upgrade is good enough to counter that, then that would be a good sign.

As for Ferrari, they still have a fundamentally good engine. The way things are right now the single most important thing to have to scoring good results is an engine that can extract the most power from 100Kg of fuel on Sunday. Despite Ferrari's problems they still finished well ahead of us at Germany. Can we really find somewhere in the region of a second a lap? Intuitively, it seems quite unlikely. I think we'd need to improve as much as we did since Melbourne and for Ferrari to basically not improve at all.



#15 DerekWildstar

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 11:10

It seems like I was waiting for a year for the team to finally overtake STR... and now we suddenly seem to be fairly easily ahead of them. And strangely we've been ahead of Williams in the race for several GPs now. I dunno what Spa and Monza will bring but those circuits will emphasise the MGU-H and peak power much more than others. If the PU upgrade is good enough to counter that, then that would be a good sign.
As for Ferrari, they still have a fundamentally good engine. The way things are right now the single most important thing to have to scoring good results is an engine that can extract the most power from 100Kg of fuel on Sunday. Despite Ferrari's problems they still finished well ahead of us at Germany. Can we really find somewhere in the region of a second a lap? Intuitively, it seems quite unlikely. I think we'd need to improve as much as we did since Melbourne and for Ferrari to basically not improve at all.


Agreed. I think we're all better off saving our expectations of a fight with Maranello for next season. For now, I'm content with scenes like JB passing Bottas last Sunday (yes, I know Bottas was nursing his primes, but still, last season even if Bottas was driving on the wheel rims and no tires, either McLaren driver would not have been able to pass).

#16 TakataDomeNSX

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 11:21

http://www.motorspor...vantage-805179/

 

Analysis: How the FIA makes sure Pirelli testers get no advantage

#17 Joseki

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 11:35

http://www.espn.co.u...raction-mclaren
 

"In the end you have to balance the costs and the distraction for your resources," McLaren racing director Eric Boullier explained. "Where we are now obviously, we believe it was better not to get distracted by doing a new car and [Pirelli] testing.

"There is some learning to do the testing, but most of the data is shared to the non-testing teams and I think that, today, we are not where we want to be so we'd be better focused on making our car faster."


Edited by Joseki, 04 August 2016 - 11:36.


#18 tkulla

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 12:45

http://www.motorspor...vantage-805179/


Analysis: How the FIA makes sure Pirelli testers get no advantage


I wonder who McLaren sent as their designated observer. The article didn't state how much access the observers get, either. Can they wander around the garages?

Edited by tkulla, 04 August 2016 - 12:45.


#19 bogi

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 12:48

Premium article effectively praising Eric Boullier (and suggesting Ferrari need to poach him):
http://www.autosport...-needs-boullier
 


I doubt he'd want to leave just as things come good.

 

Eric is the best thing Ron done since signing Hamilton, the guy turned things around, no surprise why Ferrari wants him.

 

 

More on his methods.

 

http://en.f1i.com/ma...c-boullier.html

“I started going around all departments to meet the staff, and see where McLaren’s strengths and weaknesses lay,” the Frenchman told F1i. “It quickly occurred to me that it had turned into an engineering company and no longer was a racing team. This resulted in meetings where you had 40 people discussing fairly minor details. My first task was to restore balance: the engineering department was no longer going to define what the racing entity did, but it was not going to be the opposite either. It was about making sure both divisions communicate with each other again.

“I also ditched the previous organisational chart, which had become way too complicated with pompous job titles inflating oversized egos. I almost started over from scratch, making the structure as lean as possible. Some people did not like it, but change was needed. I don’t have a killer instinct, but it’s also true that I can put people on the spot if they don’t meet my expectations.”

 

McLaren’s aerodynamics department, which had become the Achilles’ heels in recent years, has been revamped with job descriptions and targets being properly re-redefined.

“We wanted to give a clear technical and managerial direction to the group. Drawing upon his impressive scientific expertise, [McLaren chief engineer] Peter [Prodromou] takes on the technical leadership, while Guillaume Cattelani, who also has a PhD in aerodynamics, brings a pragmatic dimension in complement. It took several months but the department is very efficient now.

“Everybody really gets involved because they know their opinions are heard. I spent my first six months in McLaren listening to aerodynamicists’ complaints and grievances. Now, they hardly come to see me. Instead, they say: 'That’s a waste of time Eric, everything is under control!’ In 2014, we would increase the aerodynamic load by two points of downforce in a fortnight. Now, we find 10 over the same period.”

 

 

http://www.telegraph...glory-days.html

 

"The atmosphere was a little bit in standby. People were working, but it was a bit like, ‘Where do we go? Right? Left? Up?’ They were a little bit waiting to say, ‘Please send us somebody to lead us’.

“They dominated and won so many races over the years, and had this incredible capacity to recover, maybe a little bit too much focus on we can do it and we know what we are doing. I think sometimes you need to look outward a little bit. Self-confidence which was a little bit too much, misplaced if you want.”

 

The deliberately inscrutable Frenchman is tight-lipped on the details. “There were some dominating parts, which let’s say were too influential, which were squeezing some other parts. If you have 250 engineers, I would use 250 brains rather than 10.”

Edited by bogi, 04 August 2016 - 13:00.


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#20 Rudex

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 15:46

Hi,

Here the gap with Ferrari. We need 30hp to get around 0.4s and put part from chassis to be near to Ferrari.

CpBlxnjWcAAcwcg.jpg



#21 Quickshifter

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 15:55

Abiteboul On 2017 Renault Power unit

 

"The 2017 engine will very soon be on the dyno, and there is really good stuff coming. "It's really ambitious, but I'm super happy with the structure we have and the ambition on the engine side.

 

http://www.autosport...investment-plan

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

F1 power development is at a frantic level. It is August and the 2017 Renault Power unit will be on dyno soon. This is what Honda are up against, not just Ferrari and Mercedes but even Renault are pushing on especially after their recent successful upgrades.


Edited by Quickshifter, 04 August 2016 - 15:55.


#22 CPR

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 16:01

Hi,
Here the gap with Ferrari. We need 30hp to get around 0.4s and put part from chassis to be near to Ferrari.


Is that quali or race pace? Not very clear. Also seems to be in seconds rather than as a percentage.

Anyway... the thing is we'd need a net gain of 30 hp (or whatever - probably more like 40 hp). ie on top of whatever Ferrari can bring with upgrades and they still have 3 tokens for (presumably) a combustion chamber upgrade, which is the big one. So if Ferrari's last upgrade brings 20 hp then we'd need 50-60 hp. I could see us gaining 30-40hp in absolute terms, but not in relative terms.



#23 BJHF1

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 17:11

Eric is the best thing Ron done since signing Hamilton, the guy turned things around, no surprise why Ferrari wants him.


More on his methods.

http://en.f1i.com/ma...c-boullier.html


http://www.telegraph...glory-days.html


I'm not so sure things have turned around just yet - there's still a mountain to climb to achieve true success. Where Mclaren are atm is still sub par by their standards, and no better than before he arrived.

Edited by BJHF1, 04 August 2016 - 17:12.


#24 Joseki

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 17:27

Abiteboul On 2017 Renault Power unit
 
"The 2017 engine will very soon be on the dyno, and there is really good stuff coming. "It's really ambitious, but I'm super happy with the structure we have and the ambition on the engine side.
 
http://www.autosport...investment-plan
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
F1 power development is at a frantic level. It is August and the 2017 Renault Power unit will be on dyno soon. This is what Honda are up against, not just Ferrari and Mercedes but even Renault are pushing on especially after their recent successful upgrades.



If I remember correctly both Honda and McLaren will have to choose the 2017 final layout before September, they probably already have different layouts testing on dyno.

#25 CommanderShepard

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 17:28

Red Bull very quietly overtook Ferrari in the constructors, and by the next three races I think we can secure 6th in the constuctors championship. 4th should be our main goal this year, as it would boost the team morale along with the attracted sponsors and the prize money. We should not settle at 6th, our drivers know that.

#26 Quickshifter

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 17:31

If I remember correctly both Honda and McLaren will have to choose the 2017 final layout before September, they probably already have different layouts testing on dyno.

 

2017 engine development is going on since the beginning of the 2016 season on a parallel basis as Honda has two teams working- one on 2016  and another on 2017 but i don't know if Honda have decided on their  definitive 2017 baseline spec yet.  I think everyone is interested as to which way Honda will go with their engine architecture. We will only know next year cos these sort of details are not let out.


Edited by Quickshifter, 04 August 2016 - 17:32.


#27 chhatra

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 18:30

Hi,
Here the gap with Ferrari. We need 30hp to get around 0.4s and put part from chassis to be near to Ferrari.
CpBlxnjWcAAcwcg.jpg


Very interesting. If we discount Monaco, clear to see the progress McLaren have made. Pretty amazing considering we have yet to really focus on improving peak power.

I'm confident the gap will be less than 0.5 by season's end.

#28 DrFurby

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 18:45

Eric is the best thing Ron done since signing Hamilton, the guy turned things around, no surprise why Ferrari wants him.

 

 

More on his methods.

 

http://en.f1i.com/ma...c-boullier.html

 

 

 

http://www.telegraph...glory-days.html

 

Holy crap, they should really hire EB where I work. Seriously  :rotfl:



#29 f1paul

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 19:28

I'm confident the gap will be less than 0.5 by season's end.

I hope so too... but I'm not too confident



#30 Lotus53B

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 19:36

Hi,

Here the gap with Ferrari. We need 30hp to get around 0.4s and put part from chassis to be near to Ferrari....

Isn't it flipping great to be posting charts with legend "gap to Ferrari"?

Given what the machine could do 12months ago, recent performance has been wonderful to watch.

 

I'm going to have to express a caveat - progress will be an S curve, and the improvements will level out, but it's been great these last couple of races to see Fred and Jenson battling with other cars - even if it is midrange - rather than being sitting ducks on straights.  Okay, the car is still slightly fuel hungry, but the reliability is mushrooming, and fuel economy will come with the improvements to the engine e.g. the proposed "pre-igniton" system.



#31 Rudex

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 19:44

Is that quali or race pace? Not very clear. Also seems to be in seconds rather than as a percentage.

Anyway... the thing is we'd need a net gain of 30 hp (or whatever - probably more like 40 hp). ie on top of whatever Ferrari can bring with upgrades and they still have 3 tokens for (presumably) a combustion chamber upgrade, which is the big one. So if Ferrari's last upgrade brings 20 hp then we'd need 50-60 hp. I could see us gaining 30-40hp in absolute terms, but not in relative terms.

 

Getting the best stint pace of each race. Yes in seconds.

btw, how many tokens remain to Ferrari 2 or 3?. ok

CmwuBizW8AEoy0d.jpg


Edited by Rudex, 04 August 2016 - 19:53.


#32 TomNokoe

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 19:51

Q: will they out qualify a Ferrari in the dry once before the end of the year?

#33 f1paul

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 19:52

Q: will they out qualify a Ferrari in the dry once before the end of the year?

I think Mclaren will.  :clap:



#34 Marklar

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 20:05

Q: will they out qualify a Ferrari in the dry once before the end of the year?

Ferrari tends to risk too much in Q2, not only if its wet, so definetely yes.

On merrit (outright speed) I kinda doubt it, but who knows.

#35 TheKerb

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 20:07

How I can't wait for the rest of the season and 2017. From what we could see on board in both Germany and Hungary it showed that the front of the car is pretty stable its the back thats the issue. If the PU upgrade results in more aero ergo more stability on the back, can you imagine what would be possible? 

Perez seems to have lost momentum currently and strategy calls at Williams have not been right since Montoya left the place so I'd say its all to race for! 



#36 f1paul

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 20:12

 and strategy calls at Williams have not been right since Montoya left the place so I'd say its all to race for! 

I'm sure you mean Maldanaldo (so easy to get mixed up they both begin with "M" and are from South America)  :rotfl:



#37 TomNokoe

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 21:49

Ferrari tends to risk too much in Q2, not only if its wet, so definetely yes.

On merrit (outright speed) I kinda doubt it, but who knows.


The question was phrased as outright speed, however it's a very vague and grey area of what is on 'merit' and what isn't.

I think it's a given that McLaren are going to rapidly close in on Ferrari to season end. Ferrari have maybe a few minor aero parts, whilst McLaren have engine, aero and fuel.

#38 CommanderShepard

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 22:04

Q: will they out qualify a Ferrari in the dry once before the end of the year?


Well, technically Hungary was dry...

#39 Augurk

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 22:07

Well, technically Hungary was dry...

From someone who was there (poncho and all) I can assure you it wasn't.



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#40 CPR

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 22:14

The question was phrased as outright speed, however it's a very vague and grey area of what is on 'merit' and what isn't.

I think it's a given that McLaren are going to rapidly close in on Ferrari to season end. Ferrari have maybe a few minor aero parts, whilst McLaren have engine, aero and fuel.

 

I'm in two minds about comparing us to Ferrari for this year.

 

On the one hand, it definitely feels like we can close the gap and it will be very interesting to see what happens. On the other hand, it feels like a bridge too far and setting us up for disappointment later. Despite their problems, I don't see Ferrari just meekly surrendering. Though what they actually plan to do for the rest of the year (apart from engine upgrade) I have no idea. Feels like it would be better to focus on FI and Williams and treat anything else on top of that as gravy.

 

Anyway...

 

Tracks where we might beat Ferrari in the dry? Singapore would be one. I know they did well last year but this year they've been having trouble with tyres... so if they struggle with tyres there then the slow speed nature of the track might enable us to beat them, particularly if we can truly pile on the DF. Apart from that, Suzuka might actually be good. Though it's a "power" track all those high speed corners might cause problems for the Ferrari.



#41 CommanderShepard

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 22:45

Even mentioning Ferrari and McLaren in the same sentence is an achievement to McLaren itself. At the start of the year they were supposed to challenge Mercedes with that turbo upgrade at Canada, but they fell backwards, even beaten by Rb. But really, everything is wrong with Ferrari at the moment. How they handle the tyres, the strategies, the reliabilty, the upgrades, the drivers, the technical crew... It's all in shambles at the moment. At least McLaren is delivering 5/6 out of those.

#42 rabbitleader

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Posted 05 August 2016 - 06:34

Too many here getting well ahead of themselves, especially with suggestions of out qualifying teams such as Ferrari before the end of the season. Admire the positivity but the planned upgrades would have to be at the top end of the expectation from Honda and minimal gain from Ferrari. Last year's Renault ICE upgrades in second half of the season had no impact.

Edited by rabbitleader, 05 August 2016 - 07:09.


#43 kasio

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Posted 05 August 2016 - 08:18

Eric is the best thing Ron done since signing Hamilton, the guy turned things around, no surprise why Ferrari wants him.

 

 

More on his methods.

 

http://en.f1i.com/ma...c-boullier.html

 

 

 

http://www.telegraph...glory-days.html

 

Well. These are not his methods same as we are not faster than ferrari. Its his trashtalk. :)

Btw. reorganization was started before him and he is only one part of it.



#44 shonguiz

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Posted 05 August 2016 - 09:13

So Ferrari now is a target and they are now wanting EB the indisputable saviour. 😂

#45 Mc_Silver

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Posted 05 August 2016 - 09:24

Guys we need to set our objectives more objectively. Ferrari is too far now right now. We need to focus on beating Williams and Force India right now. Next planned upgrades are very important to make sure we achieve that objective. We are slowly but surely getting closer to Ferrari but we need about 50HP met gain over Ferrari to be able to match their PU. So, I don't want you to be disappointed if we cannot catch them by the end of the season guys. :)

#46 bogi

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Posted 05 August 2016 - 09:29

Well. These are not his methods same as we are not faster than ferrari. Its his trashtalk. :)

Btw. reorganization was started before him and he is only one part of it.

 

 

McLaren is now back on the performance level from 2013 and 2014 and can you remember how car sucked with Mercedes engine? Now the car is probably on the same performance level with engine deficit, that means MTC is reorganized and ready for Honda to deliver power punch.



#47 chhatra

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Posted 05 August 2016 - 09:41

I don't think anyone truly thinks we can catch them.

We can certainly close the gap, and in a crazy race/qualifying or a miatake from Ferrari, should give us a chance to get ahead.

Bearing in mind its pretty hard to overtake at most tracks unless you have approximately 1 second performance in hand. So if we can be ahead at the start there's a good chance this year we can stay ahead.

#48 loki0420

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Posted 05 August 2016 - 09:46

Well. These are not his methods same as we are not faster than ferrari. Its his trashtalk. :)

Btw. reorganization was started before him and he is only one part of it.

It starts after Whitmarsh left and Ron hired Eric.



#49 Maustinsj

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Posted 05 August 2016 - 11:22

It started when Rob was promoted, actually.

#50 kasio

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Posted 05 August 2016 - 11:39

It starts after Whitmarsh left and Ron hired Eric.

You could be wrong and i could be right. 

First of all: 

"Eric's appointment is an integral part of a senior management restructure within McLaren Racing," said Dennis.

 

http://www.skysports...racing-director

http://www.ft.com/cm...l#axzz4GSLygEnw

 

And second: 

Boulier talks trash. Has spread that during lotus days and keep same habits during his days with mclaren. He is incompetent as its proved during his time with lotus where his decissions robbed raikonen of many more victories and i can see same patterns now.

 

I can see his problem  - (its in his interview) he is missing details, but on contrary to what he is spreading - details are important in F1. 

Anyway even if You are right and he has built Mclaren - its time for him to go. I hope Jost will step on him! :)