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#1 cooper997

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Posted 25 March 2018 - 11:57

There's a small possiblity this photo of Ern Tadgell's Sabakat is Middle Ridge. If so it would have to be 1958. It's credited to Guy Miller, son of Aussie.

20841834_1980278678875346_61809345312219

 

 

 

Stephen



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#2 bradbury west

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Posted 25 March 2018 - 17:58

Thanks for posting that shot of the Sabakat, Stephen. Marvellous archive stuff.
Roger Lund

#3 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 March 2018 - 21:24

No Magnette gearbox should go that fast...

#4 Kenzclass

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Posted 25 March 2018 - 23:04

What gearbox was fitted when the Sabakat “graduated” to Lycoming power?

#5 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 March 2018 - 23:15

The same question occurred to me...

I might 'make enquiries'.

#6 Dick Willis

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 01:49

I think the Sabakat/Lycoming's gearbox was Austin Champ because of it's strength and overdrive plus it had VW Kombi type reduction boxes in the rear hubs to also compensate for the differing rev requirements of the Lycoming to the Climax.



#7 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 02:20

Yes, the overdrive(s) would have been essential...

I phoned Jim Bertram to see if he could recall, he thought it had a truck box. But then there's the issue of the final drive, putting the torque of 5.2-litres through an A-series doesn't sound promising.

#8 Kenzclass

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 03:06

Yes, the overdrive(s) would have been essential...

I phoned Jim Bertram to see if he could recall, he thought it had a truck box. But then there's the issue of the final drive, putting the torque of 5.2-litres through an A-series doesn't sound promising.

Another question for Jim, perhaps, Ray.

Does anyone know the actual Lycoming engine variant used in the Sabakat?

I've seen the capacity listed as 7.9 litres, which would put it in as a six cylinder O-480, rather than the four cylinder O-320, whch has the capacity Ray refers to.

Using the O-480 would tie in with the engines in the EP.9 crop dusters that Ernie ran, firstly as a partner with Austin Miller in Super Spread Aviation P/L, then in Qld as Tadgell Aviation.

Some interesting info on the early Miller - Tadgell operation here:

http://www.goodall.c...ercivalep9.html

I see there was a Geoff Tadgell operating Tadgell Aviation Services out of Caloundra Airport until a couple of years ago - surely Ernie's son?



#9 Dick Willis

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 03:41

Ray, the original diff in that Lotus 12/Sabakat was a C Series as in an early Healey/A70 etc, so obviously quite a lot stronger than a A Series.



#10 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 04:14

I might well have the answer to that here, Kenz...

There's a photo in AMS July 1960:

0318fr_AMS760sabakatlycoming.jpg

There appears to be three exhausts coming out of the left side there. Or is it four? Or two and shadows of the two? Or two and two other pipes?

It's very hard to be sure. However, Marc tells me that Graham Howard did a comprehensive story about the car in Sports Car World some time around 1967. I don't have the issue, unfortunately.

Later Graham wrote in the AGP book:

"...the new car appeared very late on practice day with the six-cylinder air-cooled Lycoming engine from a Percival EP-9 cropduster..."

He would have written that some time between 1975 and 1985, while the compilation of the entries states it to be 7865cc.

But when he was asked to proof Marc's Lotus book he corrected this to say it had a 4.25-litre 4-cylinder engine.

I'm sure the size difference between the two engines would be more than enough to preclude getting the six into the chassis, the six would be at lease five inches longer than the four.

Edited by Ray Bell, 23 May 2018 - 21:42.


#11 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 04:24

Originally posted by Dick Willis
Ray, the original diff in that Lotus 12/Sabakat was a C Series as in an early Healey/A70 etc, so obviously quite a lot stronger than a A Series.


Unlike the Lotus 15 with the bigger engine!

So retaining that diff was more likely, with a ratio as tall as 2.92:1 available, with the VW reduction gears reversed it would be possible to see as tall an overall ratio as 2.1:1.

A Champ gearbox, by the way, wouldn't help. With a low gear of 5.64:1, its fifth gear was direct, no overdrives at all.

#12 cooper997

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 05:29

Looking a bit like a dedicated Sabakat thread might be of interest.

 

Originally Tim Murray posted this link in the Doug Whiteford thread. But when the page from the following link loads, scroll up and to the left slightly as this April 12 1960 The Age (Melbourne) newspaper lhas Sabakat being played on - Lycoming and all. The article quotes Cooper, but that's rubbish. It also quotes some bore and stroke measurements and that the engine came from the plane Aussie Miller had crashed at Moorabbin.

https://news.google....1,2034609&hl=en

 

This next link is to Mike Bennett's Lotus 12 thread, it has some comments from Bill Turnbull who worked on Sabakat with Ern Tadgell. He mentions his brother John in Toowoomba, so maybe contact might reward us with some info on Middle Ridge and Sabakat.

http://forums.autosp...-the-fos/page-2

 

Also, for the record the 1960 Lowood AGP programme quotes 8150cc for the Sabakat.

 

Stephen


Edited by cooper997, 26 March 2018 - 05:31.


#13 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 06:25

Contradictions everywhere...

The photos in that newspaper item clearly show a six!

#14 Kenzclass

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 06:45

Contradictions everywhere...

The photos in that newspaper item clearly show a six!

As does your AMS photo, Ray, with those three curved inlet tract pipes leading down to the LH inlet ports.

Unlike the NZ 'Lycoming Special", Ernie obviously didn't axially rotate the engine through 180 degrees and then have to dry-sump it.

And the mention of a stretched chassis to accomodate the 'six' also gives us a pointer.

The Mooorabin crashed EP.9 was fitted with the O-480 engine, so it's all starting to come together now.

Thanks, Stephen, for your post, and those links - quite enlightening on the matter.

Now to confirm the gearbox and rear axle details. 



#15 Tim Murray

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 07:29

There's some discussion about the Sabakat in this earlier Lotus 12 thread, including these useful posts from Graham Howard on his Sabakat recreation:
 

The Lotus 12 known in Australia as the Sabakat was chassis 351, the car shown on test in various 1957pre-season photographs in the UK motoring press and subsequently used in a few UK races before being parked. By the time Ern Tadgell bought it it had been converted from de Dion to strut rear suspension. It always seemed to me to have been a lash-up to demonstrate Lotus had a car, while they waited for the intended gearboxes to arrive, and the conversion was not only very simple but used a lot of known Lotus hardware.
FPF to BMC B had already been done with some sports Lotuses, the only difference with a 12 was a dural sandwich plate which bolted into the chassis (the drawing specified four Austin 7 wheel nuts) as a diaphragm/rear engine mount. A Magnette case was not obligatory, it just had to be a BMC B-series case with remote control plus the centreline clutch throwout system, because with the wide bellhousing there was buggerall heel space for a slave cylinder and linkage on the side. For the Sabakat recreation, Tony Caldersmith made a scattershield which lived INSIDE the bellhousing, because there would not have been room for it outside.
Mike Ryves built up the gearbox from a busted c/r gearset plus new spares, some of which I bought from Warwick Rae (Lancer racer, ex BMC), plus a case I bought from a wrecker (in all, probably much the same approach Lotus would have taken!). Mike took great care with the shimming, and it was a sensual delight to operate. I have had the great privelege of driving Mike Bennett's original 12, which has the Lotus five-speed box, and I was shocked at the difference. Mike's 12 on Dunlops handled better than the Sabakat recreation on Michelins, but I told Mike I would out-race him every time because I would always know which gear I was in - with the Lotus box you could never tell if you had got a gear, or merely hurt your wrist.
There was a short tailshaft which went under the seat and into the bottom of a vertical three-gear transfer case which was the only major non-stock item. The case had a front and rear half with lots of elegant little webs, and contained three straight-cut gears. As drawn it was 1:1, and I do not think it was ever meant to be a ratio-change device. Also as drawn it had an oil filler hole, but no drain hole, no breather and no way other than butchery to extract tight-fitting bearings. This was the most troublesome part of the whole car, as might have been expected from something which was only ever meant to be a short-term fix.
The gear at the top of the train was splined down the centre and operated to replace the companion flange of a BMC C-series differential, which was carried in a Lotus Mk9-10 diff case. This case could be machined to take C-series or smaller. The Mk 9 I had, XPE-6, used tiny pre-war MG or Morris diffs and you could see the cast-in bosses on a larger radius for machining out to C-series. Anyway, the point is that this too was familiar Lotus territory. Unlike (say) A-series, a C-series had a bolted-in pinion oil seal, and the four bolts were used to attach the transfer case. For the Sabakat recreation we used a steel nose piece (out of my Six, 4.3:1 so previous driver Don Johnson could do the Warwick Farm short circuit in third gear) and Dave Mawer re-tapped the bolt holes to use slightly larger bolts.
We could never find a photograph to show how the rear calipers were mounted. The Mk 9 (which had discs) used abt 3/8" dural plate which also carried a stub-shaft bearing, but this would have moved the calipers, and hence also the discs, too far out and the discs would have fouled the bottom rear frame tubes. Mike Ryves made brackets from abt 1/8" steel plate and we had maybe 3/16" clearance. After a race these frame tubes would have the paint burned black, altho' I never saw evidence the discs had actually touched. I wouldn't be surprised if Lotus had used Mk9-10 alloy caliper carriers and just flattened the frame tubes as required. It was that sort of job. Likewise there were very detailed drawings for the transfer case, because it had to be made outside, but the revised tubing and bracketry would have been done on the fly and there were no drawings of that.
This thread began with the question, why no 12s in Historic racing. I agree - tiny frontal area, tiny weight. One of my dreams was (still is) to sit in Allison's 12, with that thumping 2.2 FPF, as it jumped up the hill after Eau Rouge. Timed over this section it was faster than any other car there that year, as well as pulling 167 mph on Masta straight (when I would not want to be sitting in it). My little car, with a down-on-power 1500 FPF, was just effortless up the Amaroo hill. No of course I don't miss it.
As for Allison's chances of winning at Spa had the race been a lap longer - not in a Lotus 12, something would have gone wrong. Lovely little cars though.
And while I have been writing this marathon, petefenelon's recommended nasa software has 99% downloaded. Off to look at pictures.
Graham Howard


Ray, Don Johnson told me the diff was from an A70 ute, was very hard to find and had been chosen because of its particular ratio. I had no trouble replacing it with an alloy-nosepiece diff bought from Bill Warren's which I was told was C-series, tho it was also from something commercial and was from memory abt 5.7:1. Worth nearly two seconds a lap at Amaroo, all between the wall and the top of the hill! Whatever, Johnson had had no trouble fitting the A70 item, and I had no difficulty fitting its replacement, the important dimensions were the same.
Graham Howard



#16 ensign14

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 07:47

One of Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich's best recordings.  :up:



#17 Dick Willis

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 07:52

The Sabakat owner is currently on his way back from Melbourne having participated in the AGP Historic display/parade so I will bring this thread to his attention on his return.



#18 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 08:04

Am I correct in thinking that A70s used the same basic diff as A90/95/105? If so 5.6 was probably the ratio.

For the Lycoming I suspect going to something like the 3.55 at the other end of the ratio scale would be the deal. And have a considerably larger pinion gear. Kombi hubs maybe going even taller?



#19 cooper997

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 08:12

Thanks for your efforts, Tim. :up: Given how you've copied Graham's posts over it might be worth the same method to copy Bill Turnbull's post(s) from the M Bennett Lotus 12 thread if that's not too much hassle.

 

I think this was the first meeting Ern Tadgell ran the Lotus 12/Sabakat in Australia. (if not, it's the earliest meeting I currently have for it)

Monday, January 27, 1958 ASCC Gnoo Blas South Pacific Road Racing Championships (Gold Star).

Event 4 South Pacific Motor Racing Championship for Racing Cars, All Powers, Gold Star Event - 27 laps 1.25pm

12 E Tadgell SabaKat monoposto 1476 2.15

(possibly ran other events at this meeting- being lazy digging out the programme)

 

If that's the case then Ern had just under 2 1/2 years with the car before the June 12, 1960 Lowood AGP meeting crash and fire.

 

Stephen


Edited by cooper997, 26 March 2018 - 08:30.


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#20 SJ Lambert

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 08:31

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#21 SJ Lambert

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 08:35

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#22 SJ Lambert

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 08:37

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#23 SJ Lambert

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 08:38

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#24 SJ Lambert

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 08:40

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#25 SJ Lambert

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 08:42

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#26 SJ Lambert

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 08:43

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#27 cooper997

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 09:05

It is pure co-incidence that the photo that is in post 1 of the thread turned up last night, but it appears in the display Mike G had for the car at the AGP as shown in James photos. I was not at Albert Park or tipped off. Also they show photos marked Middle Ridge but with 2 colour schemes. The plot thickens.

 

Keen eyes will also note a photograph of Stan Jones in the car. That was the November 22, 1959 Phillip Island meeting - one that was in theory meant to be at Albert Park. In the end PIARC let the Light Car Club run the Gold Star round at PI. Stan had done some damage to his newly acquired Cooper and Ern lent him the Sabakat.

 

Stephen



#28 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 09:11

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle
Am I correct in thinking that A70s used the same basic diff as A90/95/105? If so 5.6 was probably the ratio.
For the Lycoming I suspect going to something like the 3.55 at the other end of the ratio scale would be the deal. And have a considerably larger pinion gear. Kombi hubs maybe going even taller?


No, they didn't...

It may be that they interchanged, but the A70, A90 Atlantic and Austin-Healey BN1 (and 100S) had a nosepiece which had the mounting bolt holes of which Graham wrote.

A very low ratio would have come from something like an A70 utility or van, I would think. I posted about this before (in the Lotus 12 thread)

They are not C-series. They may be dimensionally similar, but I'm pretty sure splines are different too.

#29 Dick Willis

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 09:12

Am I correct in thinking that A70s used the same basic diff as A90/95/105? If so 5.6 was probably the ratio.

For the Lycoming I suspect going to something like the 3.55 at the other end of the ratio scale would be the deal. And have a considerably larger pinion gear. Kombi hubs maybe going even taller?

 

Lee, you are getting your Austins etc mixed up, the later ones you are referring to were also fitted to 6 cylinder Austin Healeys and are known as 5 bolt, from the 5 bolts that hold the brake drums/axles etc together. The earlier " 4 bolt" type as fitted to A70s, A90 Atlantics and 4 cylinder Healeys were the ones used in the Sabakat and had ratios of 3.66 or 5.125.



#30 Tim Murray

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 09:20

Thanks for your efforts, Tim. :up: Given how you've copied Graham's posts over it might be worth the same method to copy Bill Turnbull's post(s) from the M Bennett Lotus 12 thread if that's not too much hassle.


Here are the main Sabakat-related posts from that thread - two from Mike Bennett and two from Bill Turnbull:
 

Regarding the use of an MGA gearbox, to clarify this two Lotus 12 cars came to Australia, #351 and #353.
#351 had it survived would be a real piece of Lotus history, it was the first Lotus single seater to turn a wheel. It was built from new with an MG Magnette gearbox with a stepped down special rear diff unit in the tail. It was sold new to Ernie Tadgell of Australia. It was imported into Australia in the belly of a cropdusting aircraft which somehow bypassed a few customs officers. Thereafter it was known as Sabakat. After blowing its engine it was fitted with a Lycoming aircraft engine crashing and burning at Lowood Queensland in 1960. It was totally destroyed, however Graham Howard with the skills of Tony Caldersmith, made a replica of Sabakat which still exists in Australia today
#353 always had its 5 speed sequential gearbox but when the crown wheel and pinion failed and could not be replaced; an attempt was made during David Holyoakes ownership to fit a VW transaxle in the tail, but its installation was never completed.
Mike B


Interesting to note that Ern Tadgell's Sabakat (Lotus 12), was most likely the first Lotus 12, if I'm reading it correctly.
As a youngster in Toowoomba when Ern put the Sabakat together after flying it out to Australia in a crop duster, I was very much awed by beauty of this racer. I think Ernie may have picked up the name Sabakat while passing through the Middle East on possibly a refuelling stop in that region.
I spent many a day helping out with the lesser tasks of keeping his previous Porsche Special and the new racer in good trim.
Originally the Sabakat was silver in colour, but the wheels were originally in the factory yellow. Ern had given me the Lotus wheel hub badges which unfortunately were lost. Later the racer was painted in a spectacular gold colour with a black stripe up the middle of the bonnet.
I notice the replica Sabakat looks to have Stromberg carburettors. I'm quite sure it had Webers. Ern used methanol fuel which did not suit the cork floats.There were also overheating problems that warped the head.
Lotus 12 had some good successes in Formula1, both at Monaco and Spa, albeit with larger capacity Climax motors.
Also interesting to see there was another Lotus 12 out here. Still the case?


Bill, wonderful to hear from someone who worked with Ernie on the original Sabakat. The Sabakat replica, which I believe to still be in Victoria, runs  a pair of the twin choke SU carburettors. Google 'Sabakat Images' and you will see what they look like. The original Sabakat you worked on was chassis No 351 and was the first single seater Lotus to be tested on a circuit. A great pity it did not survive. The car in the above pictures is chassis No 353  brought out to Australia in 1960 by Frank Gardner and sitting comfortably with me in Adelaide. The carburettors in the above pictures of chassis No 353 are 40 DCO3 which predate the more common 40 DCOE units. Team Lotus used both the SU and DCO3 carburettors in their Lotus 12 cars.
        The original Sabakat which you worked on was Lotus' first test bed. I have wonderful pictures of it on test at Silverstone surrounded by Mike Costin, Graham Hill, Willie Griffiths and Colin Chapman. Tested that day by both Graham Hill and Colin chapman.
No 351 of course was built with a Magnette gearbox and unique step down rear diff unit. It is a great pity it did not survive. All later cars had the five speed Lotus Queerbox.
          I have a colour photo of Sabakat at Longwood in red with black/grey wheels, my contacts with the branches of the Tadgell family did not bear much fruit regarding photographs - though they are still involved with aviation servicing helicopters.
         I would like to send you a hard copy of a detailed article on Sabakat (which I am sure you can add too). It was in the Historic Lotus Register magazine Spring 2008 issue. See a PM I have sent you.
         Regards Mike Bennett  Adelaide


Thanks Mike - yes, I've seen the images of the replica up for sale in Victoria. My brother, John Turnbull, in Toowoomba, brought it to my notice some time back. He races a Renmax open wheeler with a 2 litre Lotus motor - hoping to race it at the Philip Island historic meeting in March.
I'm sure I already have the Sabakat article from Lotus Register magazine, but just in case that's not so, please send me your copy. A scanned copy by email will do if you prefer.
 
That's a great photo of the No 351 you have in Adelaide. Do you do any Historic race events with it.
I've seen photos of Lotus 12s performing at the annual Goodwood event. They look to be well maintained and presented. Not sure how many have survived.
 
The colour photo you have with the Sabakat in red could well be its appearance at the Australian Grand Prix at Lowood in the late 50's. Ern had the car drastically modified with front section stretched to take the flat 6? Lycoming aircraft engine. The rear section behind the driver was an iridescent red, somehow used in aviation.
 in the preliminary warm-up event for the grand prix, the torque of the Lycoming was too much for the rear suspension hub which broke, overturning the car and with a full lot of fuel burnt furiously. The magnesium wheels contributed to the blaze. Erin luckily was thrown out but received quite serious burns.
The remains of the car were for some time stored in an aircraft hanger near Oakey on the downs.
 
There are perhaps acquaintances in Toowoomba who could tell you much more though as with those family contacts it may not be too fruitful.
Cheers - Bill Turnbull



#31 cooper997

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 11:04

Thanks for adding those posts Tim. :up: 

 

May as well have as much Sabakat stuff in one spot, as possible.

 

Stephen



#32 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 12:51

Quentin Miles has posted this on Facebook:

0318fr_RLQMsabakatrough.jpg

Staggeringly rough-looking for what had been a very neat little factory racer. And no wonder it burned out with the fuel tank (one of three, apparently) barely hanging on the side of the car.

I cannot for the life of me work out what all that plumbing is all about, are they really exhaust pipes?

Graham reported in the AGP book that the crash was the result of a broken half-shaft.

Edited by Ray Bell, 23 May 2018 - 22:01.


#33 Kenzclass

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 14:19

That is one very cheapo, crude lash-up of a car. Look at the way the obviously original engine cover sits short of the scuttle, as a result of the chassis lengthening!

Ray,
As I posted earlier, the plumbing (if you are referring to those exposed long curved pipes) are the inlet runners from the top mounted carb (or injector body?) to the inlet ports, which are located on the underside of a Lycoming engine, together with the exhaust ports (non-crossflow heads), when installed in an aircraft.
In my earlier post also, I menntion how the Lycoming Special used an inverted and dry-sumped engine to bring the aspiration arrangements to the top.
If you look closely at your earlier B & W photo, and the above colour one, you can just make out the larger diameter aircraft stub exhaust pipes exiting low down, just in front of that external fuel tank!
Crash and burn? - only a breath away!
For those interested, this is a good link to the detailed engineering of the Lycoming Special, which was a much better solution to installing that engine architecture in a vehicle, intended for both road and race usage: http://www.ralphwats...t/lycoming.html


Edited by Kenzclass, 26 March 2018 - 16:51.


#34 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 21:08

Sorry Kenz, I didn't read your earlier post closely enough...

Yes, I had seen the stub exhausts, that's why I've been bewildered by the inlet pipes.

This was clearly a deathtrap from the its untested start. Jim did say that the chassis alterations were 'agricultural'.

#35 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 23:46

Lee, you are getting your Austins etc mixed up, the later ones you are referring to were also fitted to 6 cylinder Austin Healeys and are known as 5 bolt, from the 5 bolts that hold the brake drums/axles etc together. The earlier " 4 bolt" type as fitted to A70s, A90 Atlantics and 4 cylinder Healeys were the ones used in the Sabakat and had ratios of 3.66 or 5.125.

I thought the centres were the same as the later diffs. Austin/Morris later BMC had an assortment of diffs it appears.

My experience is Speedway, Midgets in the 60s used A40 diffs and SuperMods, stockcars etc used 'J Van' which were interchangeable with Morris Isis,  A90, Big Healeys etc. And ratios from 3.55 to 6.1 which has an incredibly tiny pinion gear..

I knew A70s used a bigger diff than a A40 but still had very weak wheels.

At the stockcar track we had at my fathers place [late 60s] at various times we had A40s, an A70 which just tore the centres out of wheels. In hindsight worn out shocks and a healthy engine was as much the culprit. Though the A40 wheels actually lasted longer. But the car was dangerous! 



#36 cooper997

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 02:15

That's a great photo from the Quentin Miles collection. Clearly Ern Tadgell was fully intent on some low level crop dusting that day!

 

I'm not sure on whether a Graham Howard feature on Sabakat in the 1960s exists. I had a glance through all 1967 issues and failed to spot anything. But it was a quick glance.

 

However, I knew that in an issue of Sports Car World Quarterly there is a Romsey Quints (aka Bill Tuckey) written feature on the 1960 AGP with a Sabakat burning photo. So while the Quarterly's were handy I glanced through some and found a feature by G Howard called 'The Sabakat Saga' in the Aug/Oct 80 issue. I shall see if I can photograph the 6 pages at some stage..

 

sabakat_burning_TNF.jpg

 

Crowd control... oh & s...

 

Stephen


Edited by cooper997, 18 April 2018 - 09:14.


#37 Kenzclass

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 03:44

Looks like an enemy thought it was still an operational RAAF base!
Looking forward to reading the ‘Saga’

#38 cooper997

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 04:09

Because of the block binding of the SCW Quarterly era, photographing (as 3 double pages) was easier said than done. So here's 6 single scanned pages. PM an email address if you want a larger version to read or file.

 

Graham was a great enthusiast and with the major support of Tony Caldersmith thie Sabakat reconstruction was able to happen. As readers of this will see Graham well and truly thought it through on the issue of such reconstructions. If only many others took the same approach. I''m thinking BMC Comps Dept works Rally Minis (as I tap this) that become the read deal as time passes. But the same 'real deal' applies to many others cars too.. 

 

The story also reveals that I don't need to look for the car running earlier than January 1958 Gnoo Blas meeting

SCWQ_Sabakat_01.jpg

SCWQ_Sabakat_02.jpg

SCWQ_Sabakat_03.jpg

 

more to follow..

 

Stephen


Edited by cooper997, 18 April 2018 - 09:18.


#39 cooper997

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 04:15

SCWQ_Sabakat_04.jpg

SCWQ_Sabakat_05.jpg

SCWQ_Sabakat_06.jpg

End of feature.

 

As can be seen reading the feature Graham had a fairly broad support network with the build.

 

Stephen


Edited by cooper997, 18 April 2018 - 09:20.


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#40 Kenzclass

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 07:38

Great article; answers a lot of our questions.
Thanks for your efforts, Stephen. Well worth it!
“...presented for scrutineering...” - with the Lycoming engine.
And it obviously passed!
Looks like Ray Charles had a second career that none of us knew about, if that death trap earned a sticker.

#41 cooper997

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 09:30

Glad you enjoyed it Ken.

 

Presentation wasn't a strong point for many in that era. But I guess scrutineers were stuck between a rock and a hard place. Safety versus organisers wanting a reasonable field of runners. So I guess some cars were sent away to be fixed.

 

Might be worth scanning the whole Quints AGP feature too, will check it out.

 

Stephen



#42 Michael Ferner

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 10:39

Great article, yes, thanks for posting!

And, I have never seen the difference between a Lotus and a Cooper explained more succintly:

Chapman knew it ought to be satisfactory in theory; Cooper knew that in practice it often wasn't.


:up: Can you say it better than that?

#43 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 12:24

Great stuff, Stephen... I have managed to read it all otherwise I'd be taking you up on your offer...

Now, to get back to this pic:

0318fr_RLQMsabakatrough.jpg

Something has been bugging me about it and I've got to try to explain.

The ladies in this pic, just a whole bunch of them looking at this car, as rough and ungainly as it is. Who are they? Typically ladies at race meetings are the wives or girlfriends of competitors or officials, but this lot look a little out of place.

And all those beads on the one at the left? And the sunglasses and the big red handbag?

Can we identify the bloke with the 35mm camera?

And what of the bloke looking down into the cockpit? He's wearing a QRDC band on his hat, is he a scrutineer or just an interested official?

And just what is that sitting on the alloy panel ahead of the inlet pipes... could it be a Box Brownie?

Not mentioned yet at all, by the way, is the alloy skin under the bonnet. Probably ducting for the air to cool the monster, I'd suggest.

I'm tempted to think I should put this photo before Ken Peters and see if he knows who the women might be...



.

Edited by Ray Bell, 23 May 2018 - 22:21.


#44 cooper997

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 06:41

Given it was the AGP I'm sure the ladies like to wear their best. The QRDC hatted chap is an official on the ipad I can just make out FICIIAL under the RDC.

 

To save some of the guessing here's the official list from the AGP programme - could be E W Stratton, Chief Scrutineer. Clearly someone has said something to amuse some of those gathered.

1960_AGP_officials.jpg

Qld's Brad Stratton ran ATCC events and Bathurst in 1992/93 with a Twin Cam Corolla. I think it was his father, John Stratton ran a Cooper S in Group N Appendix J in the mid to late 90s. So good chance there's a connection.

 

Stephen


Edited by cooper997, 18 April 2018 - 09:29.


#45 Kenzclass

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 08:22

The Assistant clark of Course that day - M.J. (Merv) Hobson worked with my late father in the Brisbane Head Office of Prudential Assurance.

Note that Dick Johnson had Prudential sponsorship in the Tru-Blu days - often wondered if Merv was instrumental in brokering that.

Anyone know if he's still around? - a longshot, but he was somewhat younger than my dad.



#46 cooper997

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 11:59

Ken, Clearly Qld Motor sport was a small world in those early days.

 

Looking at the Officials list the Safety Marshall is D Jeremiah, I can only assume that is David Jeremiah who stuck his FE Holden in the dam at an early Lakeside. There used to be an end result colour photo on the Oz photos #1 thread back around 2011.

 

Stephen



#47 Kenzclass

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 12:23

Ken, Clearly Qld Motor sport was a small world in those early days.

 

Looking at the Officials list the Safety Marshall is D Jeremiah, I can only assume that is David Jeremiah who stuck his FE Holden in the dam at an early Lakeside. There used to be an end result colour photo on the Oz photos #1 thread back around 2011.

 

Stephen

That's  him, Stephen. And why not?

As you know, from Qld political history, everyone likes to be in the swim up here!

Don't you worry about that!



#48 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 13:31

What do we know about some of these people?

The first one on the list I know is Fred Pearse, MG etc racer of the fifties, thoroughly involved with organisation with the ARDC (etc?) through the eighties.

Glyn Scott, of course, raced from the fifties until his untimely death in 1970, a regular runner all around the country.

Sid Sakzewski, a supreme enthusiast and owner/builder of Lakeside. Raced huge Chrysler products in the late fifties and early sixties, owned a Porsche Carrera which others raced.

Bill Pickett was on organising bodies in Queensland for many years.

Baz Palassis (or Palazzis?) raced TCs through the fifties, loved the sport.

#49 cooper997

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 00:42

Back in post 36 I mentioned the Romsey Quints (aka Bill Tuckey) 1960 Lowood AGP feature and borrowed a photo of the burning Sabakat from it. Here's the whole 4 pages from the November 77/January 78 issue of Sports Car World Quarterly. During that era most issues had a theme for a substantial number of features, in this instance Aston Martin.

 

There is a couple of mistakes, that I've noted (and others might find more) one being Bob Jane's Maserati 300S was not ex Whiteford and there's a photo of the earlier Tadgell race car, not Sabakat. Doug Blain is mentioned in this feature he was one time editor of SCW, before he headed to England and published there. Of course, he is publisher of The Automobile these days.

 

This one will hopefully be easier to read than the first couple of pages of The Sabakat Saga, but pm with email if you would like a better version.

 

SCWQ_Lowood_AGP_01_TNF.jpg

SCWQ_Lowood_AGP_02_TNF.jpg

SCWQ_Lowood_AGP_03_TNF.jpg

SCWQ_Lowood_AGP_04_TNF.jpg

 

Stephen


Edited by cooper997, 18 April 2018 - 09:38.


#50 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 00:42

Ken Peters is another identity who was there that day, but as a spectator... he remembers:

I remember it well. I was a spectator on the inside of BP Bend and watched the event unfold. The Sabakat tipped over, tossed the driver out and fell into the hay bales. It went up like a Roman candle. It had mag wheels and magnesium burns very bright.

The Flaggie on the spot - one of the Robinsons from Lone Pine fame - sprinted across the track carrying a fire extinguisher. He tripped and fell and the extinguisher went off spraying everywhere but on the fire.

Good thing there were no seatbelts (or halo) in those days

Can’t help with any names in the photo. Must have been somebody important lady though - who wears pearl necklaces to motor racing?