65 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

Interesting 'what might have been', back In 2012 Perez is sure he had the option to race for Ferrari in 2014 when he opted to drive for McLaren instead:
 

Instead he decided to join McLaren for 2013, but lasted just one season at the team before being dropped. “I think probably given how McLaren was at that time that ride came just at the wrong moment for me,” said Perez. “Because if you go back to 2012 I was a Ferrari member, I was going to get a contract for 2014, I had to say one more year with Sauber and then get the ride with Ferrari.”
“I went to Maranello and discussed with Domenicali, he told me ‘let’s do a pre-contract for 2014’,” he explained.
Perez said he had approaches from several top teams during 2012. “At that time Mercedes was interested, Ferrari was and McLaren so I was in a really strong position back then. And I thought to myself ‘I need to get into a competitive car because I can win the title’.
“The opportunity with McLaren came and McLaren was winning races, was fighting for titles for the last five years, so how can you say no? It was quite an obvious thing.”

https://www.racefans...tract-for-2014/

 

Also interesting is how he sees going to McLaren as a mistake although I think this is one of those cases where really it would be impossible to predict in advance.

[Peat]

“I think probably given how McLaren was at that time that ride came just at the wrong moment for me,”   

 

Bad luck having a decent teammate, isn't it?

[jcbc3]

Problem Checo had mostly wasn't his team mate but his own attitude.

That being said, he was a hot commodity at the time, and has subsequently proved himself a more than capable F1 driver. It's just that his personal low came at exactly the wrong time. I.e. the moment he had gotten a competitive ride. I believe he was correct in grabbing the opportunity and I believe McLaren was right in dumping him, since they had the next big thing on their books (better put a wink in here ).

[SophieB]

Problem Checo had mostly wasn't his team mate but his own attitude.

That being said, he was a hot commodity at the time, and has subsequently proved himself a more than capable F1 driver. It's just that his personal low came at exactly the wrong time. I.e. the moment he had gotten a competitive ride. I believe he was correct in grabbing the opportunity and I believe McLaren was right in dumping him, since they had the next big thing on their books (better put a wink in here ).

 

I don't entirely disagree but wasn't he in the invidious position of being at the middle of a power struggle between Ron Dennis who didn't want him in the team and Martin Whitmarsh who did? Very difficult to establish and flourish in such conditions.

 

(Not that Ferrari is renowned for being a soothing, harmonious working place either though, I guess.)

 

edit: I also suspect Perez suffered from McLaren being so desperate to beat Mercedes to their announcing Hamilton as their driver that they kind of screwed themselves over. It allowed for doubts as to whether they'd been too hasty in their choice.

 

It's interesting to try and imagine him at Ferrari for 2014 and whether he'd have given Fernando more of a run for his money.

Edited by SophieB, 18 April 2019 - 10:21.

[Lights]

Interesting 'what might have been', back In 2012 Perez is sure he had the option to race for Ferrari in 2014 when he opted to drive for McLaren instead:

https://www.racefans...tract-for-2014/

I think he would have done well at Ferrari as Massa's successor.

What is even more interesting is that he might've had the chance to replace Schumacher at Mercedes. Although I can only assume that was merely a back-up plan by Mercedes for if the Hamilton deal would fall through.

And then when Hamilton was announced, McLaren became interested. Which at the time wasn't such bad prospect for Perez. But then McLaren messed it all up by designing a new car from scratch with lots of 'unlockable potential'. Must have been a tough year for him. Especially as McLaren was looking for the next Hamilton. With Button as a landmark, they knew Perez wasn't it. But neither was Magnussen or Vandoorne. Some say they're still looking.

And since then it's a story of 'forever in the midfield' for Perez, where he's been solid for quite some years but it doesn't give him any success.

[noikeee]

It was one of those "combination of factors" things. McLaren was an opportunity he couldn't refuse and he couldn't predict the car would be as uncompetitive as it was - in the 2nd half of 2012 it was winning lots of races and although they had already lost works status for a while, there were no major changes planned for 2013 that would cast any doubts on the car. But then he just wasn't good enough, if perhaps not really off the pace of Button, just committing a few too many mistakes. With his attitude rumoured as questionable that year, Magnussen looking like a good prospect, and McLaren a bit desperate to find the next Hamilton, it all snowballed into killing his career momentum.

It was partially bad luck/bad timing but also not being good enough and not putting enough serious effort. He can blame himself more for that, than for not reading the future to know the McLaren would be mediocre. Ferrari 2014 was better than McLaren 2013 but not really serious challengers neither, so I doubt it would play out dramatically different, I don't think. Plus going against Alonso instead of Button... yeah not great. Best case scenario he'd end being where Kimi was for a few years and maybe win 1 GP or 2.

[Marklar]

Wasnt Hulkenberg's Ferrari contract for 2014 basically ready as well until they decided to go for Kimi?

Not doubting him of course, but to me it looks like staying another year at Sauber would have ended up in the same scenario as Hulkenberg.

[coppilcus]

“I think probably given how McLaren was at that time that ride came just at the wrong moment for me,”   
 
Bad luck having a decent teammate, isn't it?

Pérez lost against a world champion, winning the qualifying battle.

Ocon lost two straight years against Perez, winning one qualifying battle. Hulkenberg lost two straight seasons, won one, winning two qualifying battles.

I agree with you: Bad luck having a “decent” teammate!

[jcbc3]

I don't entirely disagree but wasn't he in the invidious position of being at the middle of a power struggle between Ron Dennis who didn't want him in the team and Martin Whitmarsh who did? Very difficult to establish and flourish in such conditions.
 
...

Maybe Ron Dennis reluctance on him, stemmed from this: https://www.motorspo...ttitude/453947/
Ramirez mentioning attitude problems at Sauber before he got the McLaren seat.

To add there is also this: https://www.motorspo...07287/37494098/
showing rifts may have been patched up.

[sladealonso]

For some reason, I'm adamant Perez has mentioned this before. Perhaps it was a rumour, but I'm sure I was already aware of it.

As for Perez, it all came too soon for him, top talent, cruelly underrated by many. Will now be lucky to ever find a top seat, but he's shown himself to be worthy of one if that counts for anything.

[dierome87]

I think he's a decent driver. Not on a Alonso/Hamilton level, but, then again, that is no sin.

 

He would have been a solid No. 2 Ferrari driver. Maybe he could have snatched a couple of opportunistic wins (like he has done with all those podiums).

 

1 or 2 decades ago, he would have surely won a couple of chaotic races for Force India. It's a shame that the current gaps between the top teams and the rest make that nearly impossible now...

[SilverArrow31]

Many still talk like the 2013 Mclaren was a top level car to win races, Many of Perez's later Force India's turned out to be a better car than that Mclaren, in my opinion Perez never did go to a top team and still hasn't.

[coppilcus]

The whole scenario ended being a conjunction of bad luck, questionable decisions of his own, management team, sponsors, and of course the collapse of McLaren in the sporting and management arenas.

Mclaren was a winning team in 2012: Pérez alone, in a Force India, has more podiums than the whole British team since 2014, that’s how low they’ve got.

What I’ve been able to infer about his laid off is that an internal battle between Dennis and Witmarsh, ended up tangling with Perez’s interests in two fronts: the sporting one with Magnussen being ‘the next Senna’, thanks to the analysis they made of “simulator data”; and the financial viability of the team, finding at last a main partner sponsor thanks to the sponsorship of the Mexican, being Dennis whom pressured and ask far too much at Slim’s team, and getting angrier at Perez when they turned him down. That’s why McLaren dumped him so late in the season, harshly treatment indeed, and thus Witmarsh intervened in his favour with Force India.

Bad luck and timing...

Edited by coppilcus, 18 April 2019 - 18:11.

[KavB]

It is unfortunate for Sergio that he had a number of great opportunities but in hindsight chose the wrong option. You can't really blame him for choosing to go to a top team immediately, rather than a couple of years away as anything could have happened in between. Like someone mentioned, Kimi becoming available probably would have prevented him from joining Ferrari anyway. These days, if you haven't been signed by a top team by 25 then you never will as you will be replaced as the "promising young driver" by those a few years younger than you even if you are better than them. The exception of course is if you pull off a Webber/Button and manage to be at the right place at the right time. 

 

This is why I feel Ocon has lost the momentum in his career. He will be 24 next year and I feel there will be other drivers considered more promising than him because they will be new and exciting. The same thing happened with Hulkenberg when he didn't get the Ferrari drive.

[Marklar]

For some reason, I'm adamant Perez has mentioned this before. Perhaps it was a rumour, but I'm sure I was already aware of it.

As for Perez, it all came too soon for him, top talent, cruelly underrated by many. Will now be lucky to ever find a top seat, but he's shown himself to be worthy of one if that counts for anything.

He did indeed.

In 2012 he at least hinted it

"I wanted to be at Ferrari in 2014," Perez, who will move to the British team from Sauber at the end of the year, told El Mundo newspaper.
He said the signs he had a future at Ferrari were good, particularly after a meeting at Monza with Stefano Domenicali.
"They were really interested in me, but now not," the 22-year-old smiled.

And in 2015 he outright confirmed it
 

“For 2013 I had to stay at Sauber for one more year and then I would be going to Ferrari. But then the opportunity with McLaren came,” he said in the wake of the Maranello outfit confirming veteran Kimi Raikkonen for another year with the team.
“It turned out it [McLaren] wasn’t the right team and obviously in hindsight it damaged quite a bit my reputation,” added the Mexican.
“But I believe with my results in the past year and this year, if I can have strong results then the opportunity can come in the near future to go back to a top team.”

And that was the discussion thread on this forum for the later one

https://forums.autos...-ferrari-drive/

Edited by Marklar, 18 April 2019 - 11:51.

[ANF]

Wasnt Hulkenberg's Ferrari contract for 2014 basically ready as well until they decided to go for Kimi?

Not doubting him of course, but to me it looks like staying another year at Sauber would have ended up in the same scenario as Hulkenberg.

Maybe Pérez and Hülkenberg almost joined Ferrari for 2014 because Webber almost joined Ferrari for 2013, which maybe was a result of Kubica almost joining Ferrari for 2012?

[OneAndOnly]

"...but then I took an arrow in the knee".

[jjcale]

Interesting 'what might have been', back In 2012 Perez is sure he had the option to race for Ferrari in 2014 when he opted to drive for McLaren instead:
 

https://www.racefans...tract-for-2014/

 

Also interesting is how he sees going to McLaren as a mistake although I think this is one of those cases where really it would be impossible to predict in advance.

 

Whit-hindsight it was the wrong place to be  .... though I could have told him in real time. All he had to do was ask - how did the vacancy arise, please?

[KavB]

Whit-hindsight it was the wrong place to be  .... though I could have told him in real time. All he had to do was ask - how did the vacancy arise, please?

I mean nearly everyone thought Hamilton was destroying his career by leaving McLaren...

[absinthedude]

I still think that Perez did OK. Button is no easy team-mate, he managed to beat Hamilton over a season...but people were expecting McLaren to win races in 2013 because they were still winning in 2011 and 2012. He still scored 49 points to Button's 73. That's two-thirds of Button's haul. Neither finished on the podium all season and it was clear that some elements within McLaren weren't really supporting Perez. Honestly, he did pretty well given that KMag was the anointed one at the time. At the time it was disappointing, many people assumed the McLaren was more competitive than it in fact was and that Button was having a poor season. With the benefit of hindsight we can see how McLaren have slid since 2012 and that Perez actually didn't do badly at all.

 

In hindsight perhaps it was a mistake for Perez to go there....but everyone has 20/20 hindsight. at the time it was a great opportunity. Since 2013 Perez has quite quietly continued to impress and has scored more podiums than all the McLaren drivers put together. 

[Lights]

At the time it was disappointing, many people assumed the McLaren was more competitive than it in fact was and that Button was having a poor season.

Did they really? You'd have to be quite short-sighted to believe that a guy who scored 25 podiums in the 3 years prior (more than Hamilton even!) suddenly doesn't know how to get there anymore. It was clearly a midfield car.

[coppilcus]

”...” It was clearly a midfield car.

It was a bathtub with wheels... for a McLaren that is.

[coppilcus]

I’ve always seen Perez this candid, even with his “loner” character, but I guess it comes out as having “attitude issues” for the masses:

https://youtu.be/AtGDbJaP4Ko

P.s. Muscle memory is a bi*+#! Five minutes with his family and struggles to communicate his thoughts. He talks way better after jumping right out of a F1 car...

[Regazzoni]

I was the future once.

[SophieB]

He did indeed.

In 2012 he at least hinted it

And in 2015 he outright confirmed it
 

And that was the discussion thread on this forum for the later one

https://forums.autos...-ferrari-drive/

 

 

I'm just glad I didn't start the earlier thread and then forgotten all about it!

[RedBaron966]

Perez is a fine driver who is a bit of a point scoring machine. Like his team principal said he is highly underrated. I dont quite understand why most on this board believe that he was destroyed by Button. I can think of several occasions where he came on top. He certainly was a match for JB.

[Spillage]

Sadly on recent years no talented young driver does well at McLaren. Magnussen and Vandoorne didn't last long either. It was just the wrong team at the wrong time. It's a shame, because I reckon he's at least as good as Bottas and Gasly and deserves another shot in a good car.

[KWSN - DSM]

He is a solid above average F1 driver, he would have been a fine Ferrari # 2... many of the drivers would have been a fine Ferrari # 2 - Not a single driver would have been close to Alonso.

 

[Anuity]

Ferrary in 2014 was just as bad as Mclaren in 2013. Going there against Alonso would do him no better than being in Mclaren with Button. Likely worse.

I think he is a great driver, it would be nice to see him getting a chance in a top team.

[noikeee]

He is a solid above average F1 driver, he would have been a fine Ferrari # 2... many of the drivers would have been a fine Ferrari # 2 - Not a single driver would have been close to Alonso.

I think there's not much between him and Bottas. Bottas probably outright quicker over a lap, quicker in qualifying and the odd race. Perez better when you need to nurse the tyres.

Edit: sorry quoted the wrong post

Edited by noikeee, 18 April 2019 - 16:39.

[Marklar]

I actually think Perez is the perfect number two. He'd probably qualify more often behind the #1 driver of merc and Ferrari than Bottas or Hulkenberg would, thus making the use of team orders less likely, but he'd likely still end up with a similar points tally as they would thanks to his race management.

[jjcale]

I mean nearly everyone thought Hamilton was destroying his career by leaving McLaren...

 

I didnt .... and as I am fond of repeating .... not only did I think it was a great move, I predicted the move in well in advance and gave the reasons for the prediction. 

 

BTW, I still expect LH to end up in a Ferrari at some point.... once they have the clear better car he will be off like a shot.   

[Lights]

I dont quite understand why most on this board believe that he was destroyed by Button. 

 

Can you provide a quote of even 1 person who says that?

[HeadFirst]

It was a bathtub with wheels... for a McLaren that is.

 

That statement doesn't hold water.

[Talisman]

Maybe Ron Dennis reluctance on him, stemmed from this: https://www.motorspo...ttitude/453947/
Ramirez mentioning attitude problems at Sauber before he got the McLaren seat.

To add there is also this: https://www.motorspo...07287/37494098/
showing rifts may have been patched up.

 

I had thought that Perez' attitude started at Sauber blocked the Ferrari contract and the McLaren deal was a replacement once that fell through.  When he first started to perform well in 2012 he was quickly mentioned as a future Ferrari star, but as the season went on the Italians seemed to go cool on the idea due to his behaviour at the Swiss team.

 

I'm not sure I buy the idea that his management fluffed it up for him.

[SonGoku]

Interesting to hear that Perez felt he was the championship favourite, because he ''replaced'' Hamilton. 

[Yamamoto]

That statement doesn't hold water.

 

Not now that you've pulled the plug on it..

[coppilcus]

That statement doesn't hold water.

Let me try again: the 2013 McLaren was a bathtub with wheels, the Mclarens from 2014 onwards were bathtubs with square wheels!

[RPM40]

facing Alonso, that would have been fun for him

[HeadFirst]

facing Alonso, that would have been fun for him

 

Actually it could have been ... hard to have delusions of grandeur, when you are up against Alonso. Perez might have accepted his role and settled in to be a solid #2. Wait a second, it's Perez I'm talking about ..... it would have been fun! 

[Huffer]

Part of Perez's problem was that the car he was driving in 2013 somewhat gave the impression that he was better than he was - the Sauber wasn't a great car, but it WAS very kind to its tires, which was a big issue for all the teams that season and gave the team some great results because of that. It's quite likely that he even bought into his own hype, and he came crashing dow to Earth at McLaren because he suddenly found out that perhaps he was not all that great after all.

 

Checo is an "ok" driver I suppose - but he's nowhere near as good as he still seems to think he is. It wasn't just a stint at McLaren during the start of the teams downfall that was the issue for him - he also ran out of ability. 

[theflyingwheel]

Part of Perez's problem was that the car he was driving in 2013 somewhat gave the impression that he was better than he was - the Sauber wasn't a great car, but it WAS very kind to its tires, which was a big issue for all the teams that season and gave the team some great results because of that. It's quite likely that he even bought into his own hype, and he came crashing dow to Earth at McLaren because he suddenly found out that perhaps he was not all that great after all.

Checo is an "ok" driver I suppose - but he's nowhere near as good as he still seems to think he is. It wasn't just a stint at McLaren during the start of the teams downfall that was the issue for him - he also ran out of ability.

“Ran out of hability” Next year does a podium, 2015 and 2016 beat Hulkenberg and did 3 more podiums, 2017 and 2018 beated Ocon and did a podium... yeah right.

[warp]

Checo is an "ok" driver I suppose - but he's nowhere near as good as he still seems to think he is.

 

Still better than Hulk and not far off Ocon. 

 

I'll say it again... Pairing with Checo is the worst thing it could have happened to Ocon and Hulk. Both looked like they were the next coming of Senna until they faced the "Mexican pay driver"

 

Checo should have waited the 2014 Ferrari deal. He was not going to beat Alonso by any stretch of imagination but he could have won a few races and scored much more points/podiums. Hindsight is always 20/20.

[theflyingwheel]

Still better than Hulk and not far off Ocon.

I'll say it again... Pairing with Checo is the worst thing it could have happened to Ocon and Hulk. Both looked like they were the next coming of Senna until they faced the "Mexican pay driver"

Checo should have waited the 2014 Ferrari deal. He was not going to beat Alonso by any stretch of imagination but he could have won a few races and scored much more points/podiums. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Don’t know what is harder for Perez detractors to accept,

A) The fact that Perez is a good driver
B) The fact that Ocon and Hulk lost to a Mexican paydriver

[ElectricBoogie]

This year a bad one for him to destroy his team mate. But who know, if he can drive his car onto the podium a couple of times and show overall consistence, perhaps the path to Ferrari might open back up if (when) they see that Vettel is not their future anymore and they need a solid 2nd driver now.

[rocque]

Don’t know what is harder for Perez detractors to accept,

A) The fact that Perez is a good driver
B) The fact that Ocon and Hulk lost to a Mexican paydriver

 

C) Checo's fans propaganda which claims that he is far better driver than the Hulk/Ocon when he is not. Ignoring all the circumstances, points and podiums always tell whole truth!

 

I'm too tired writing the same again and again through the years when people don't want to listen, so I pasted my discussion from twitter.

https://twitter.com/...233609026342915

[theflyingwheel]

C) Checo's fans propaganda which claims that he is far better driver than the Hulk/Ocon when he is not. Ignoring all the circumstances, points and podiums always tell whole truth!

I'm too tired writing the same again and again through the years when people don't want to listen, so I pasted my discussion from twitter.
https://twitter.com/...233609026342915

Yeah, let’s ignore podiums and points and the times he has beated literally each in two years straight at the wdc and base our arguments on subjective things because if we go by that logic Takuma Sato for me is a 5 times champion since points, podiums and position on the wdc don’t matter according to this logic.

[Ramon69]

Some drivers show how good they are on track, others brag about it...

[rocque]

Yeah, let’s ignore podiums and points and the times he has beated literally each in two years straight at the wdc and base our arguments on subjective things because if we go by that logic Takuma Sato for me is a 5 times champion since points, podiums and position on the wdc don’t matter according to this logic.

 

Yeah, let's ignore bad strategy call or puncture cost Hulkenberg podiums and reliability & DNFs & bad luck cost him points. Let's ignore the fact Ocon drove his first and second full season in F1 and improved a lot every year.

Kvyat is better than Ricciardo, because he outscored him in 2015. Button is better than Hamilton, because he scored more points overall during their years in McLaren. Verstappen was faster than Ricciardo in 2017, but he scored less points, so Ricciardo was better. Kvyat is better than Verstappen, because he outscored Ricciardo faster    Yeah, it doesn't matter. Subjective things 

Edited by rocque, 26 April 2019 - 19:16.

[coppilcus]

Yeah, let's ignore bad strategy call or puncture cost Hulkenberg podiums and reliability & DNFs & bad luck cost him points. Let's ignore the fact Ocon drove his first and second full season in F1 and improved a lot every year.

Kvyat is better than Ricciardo, because he outscored him in 2015. Button is better than Hamilton, because he scored more points overall during their years in McLaren. Verstappen was faster than Ricciardo in 2017, but he scored less points, so Ricciardo was better. Kvyat is better than Verstappen, because he outscored Ricciardo faster    Yeah, it doesn't matter. Subjective things 

 

... aaaaaaannnnnd Perez never got bad luck, reliability problems, faulty strategies and DNF's. 

 

That's not subjective at all!

 

Reality (Ocon has 2.5 seasons upon his shoulders): Lost with Wehrlein being a rookie and two straight seasons with a Mexican paydriver.