Jump to content


Photo

Tip of my tongue...


  • Please log in to reply
52 replies to this topic

#1 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,621 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 26 August 2019 - 19:53

This is really bugging me, dammit!  Front-drive, those distinctive wheels, that dohc engine... Turner?

 

Screen-Shot-2019-08-26-at-20-45-02.png

 

Copyright - George Phillips, Revs Digital Library

 

DCN


Edited by Doug Nye, 26 August 2019 - 19:53.


Advertisement

#2 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 65,901 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 26 August 2019 - 20:03

Exhausts and carburettors on the same side on a twin-cam?

Sounds French.

#3 Stephen W

Stephen W
  • Member

  • 13,794 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 27 August 2019 - 07:43

Emeryson?



#4 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 5,696 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 27 August 2019 - 13:48

Simca Gordini tipo 5 possibly as the 1430 variant, 6 pot? The wheels look right but not the tc head, although it had a cross pushrod engine later . I cannot tie any thing in with the front springs though,if those are mini coils and not gaiters at the bottom of the damper, otherwise that looks OK. I knew I should have bought that book on Le Sorcier...
Exits left...
Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 27 August 2019 - 13:51.


#5 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 4,783 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 27 August 2019 - 14:08

Exhausts and carburettors on the same side on a twin-cam?

Sounds French.


That doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? Odd thing, this engine... Looks homemade, too.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 27 August 2019 - 14:09.


#6 Rupertlt1

Rupertlt1
  • Member

  • 1,334 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 27 August 2019 - 14:42

"In 1954 Jack developed a rather ambitious four-cylinder, water-cooled, twin overhead cam, 500cc unit for Formula 3. This intrigued Cyril Kieft, who was building formula 3 cars in Wolverhampton. On paper, the engine looked a winner and Cyril spoke of building a batch of 25 sports cars using it. The one engine which Turner made was run in a Kieft in a couple of hill climbs and was found wanting. Jim Burgoyne drove the car in the 500cc class at Shelsley Walsh in 1955. The engine gave colossal revs but they were not matched by an equal ration of brake horse power and the experiment was hardly a success: it produced only 35 bhp against the 50 bhp of a decent Norton. Although a brilliant design, this motor proved unsuccessful, in the main due to lack of funds to fully develop it. Jack Turner later adapted the dohc cylinder head to a BMC A-Series engine and ran it in a Morris Minor."

 

RGDS RLT



#7 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 4,783 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 27 August 2019 - 14:52

Having thought about it, could this be a "stagger valve" arrangement? Someone ought to have tried it in the forty years between Frontenac and BMW... ?



#8 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 5,696 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 27 August 2019 - 23:32

The only photographs of the Turner 500cc F3 engine that I have seen show it in the rear of a 500 chassis and running 4 SU carburettors and seemingly a cross flow design. The exhaust in DCN's posted photo seems to have three exhaust pipes, not likely for a 4 pot.
Roger Lund

#9 Pat Clarke

Pat Clarke
  • Member

  • 2,757 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 28 August 2019 - 00:06

I think it is a pushrod or SOHC V6, not a twin cam head. So there are probably carburettors and an exhaust manifold on the other side too.

Certainly, you couldn't get exhaust across the engine and out under the intake ports?

Even the French wouldn't do that :-)

 

Pat


Edited by Pat Clarke, 28 August 2019 - 00:06.


#10 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 9,832 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 28 August 2019 - 07:16

The only photographs of the Turner 500cc F3 engine that I have seen show it in the rear of a 500 chassis and running 4 SU carburettors and seemingly a cross flow design. The exhaust in DCN's posted photo seems to have three exhaust pipes, not likely for a 4 pot.
Roger Lund



When I look at it closely, I get the feeling that the middle exhaust pipe is wider than the one ahead. Could this be a single pipe of a 2-in-1 arrangement for the two cylinders in the middle of the block?

#11 Allan Lupton

Allan Lupton
  • Member

  • 3,761 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 28 August 2019 - 07:32

When I look at it closely, I get the feeling that the middle exhaust pipe is wider than the one ahead. Could this be a single pipe of a 2-in-1 arrangement for the two cylinders in the middle of the block?

I agree with that and am with Pat Clarke that it could be a V engine - but a V-8, not V-6. Can anyone say how many plugleads there are, as I'm confused by the leads and their shadows.

Doug reckons it's front-drive, but I'm not so sure, as there's not much space for a gearbox/final drive ahead of the engine



#12 Bloggsworth

Bloggsworth
  • Member

  • 8,617 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 28 August 2019 - 07:44

The only photographs of the Turner 500cc F3 engine that I have seen show it in the rear of a 500 chassis and running 4 SU carburettors and seemingly a cross flow design. The exhaust in DCN's posted photo seems to have three exhaust pipes, not likely for a 4 pot.
Roger Lund

 

So rare on the millions of Austin/Morris/MG engines over the years...



#13 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 16,958 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 28 August 2019 - 10:00

It has to be a four pot, surely?  There are two twin choke carbs, and there are only four plug leads (the shadows do make it difficult, but if you trace them upstream, it looks like four).  It also looks like the plugs are angled  sort of like this  \ / \ / which is a bit unusual.  

 

Beyond that, i have no clue.  If it has floored DCN, I have zero chance of identifying it!



#14 Charlieman

Charlieman
  • Member

  • 1,725 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 28 August 2019 - 10:19

The tyres are narrow section. Does anyone recognise the tread pattern?

 

What could the mechanic be lifting with hands in those positions?

 

Front right suspension, starting from the outboard top:

* A wishbone element with an outboard pickup for a pull rod, connected to a mystery box. Rubber band suspension?

* Mystery tube, perhaps brake line.

* Possible drive shaft with nipple outboard. If you project the tube into the engine bay, it seems plausible. There is something interesting hidden by the mechanic's right hand. The engine bay side aperture and gaiter don't make sense to me.

* Lower lateral suspension link with inboard pickup located in same area as mystery box.

* Inclined damper unit -- with pre-load spring or gaiter?

 

If the car has front drive shafts it could be 4WD.



#15 richardspringett

richardspringett
  • Member

  • 189 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 28 August 2019 - 10:38

I have to admit I have not got the faintest clue what car this is.....however, one thing strikes me, the exhaust pipes fit perfectly into their body panel, and there is no room for a fourth pipe,  which perhaps led to a 'V' configuration.  

 

On closer inspection the centre exhaust pipe is certainly bigger than 1st and 3rd.....could 2 and 3 ports be siamezed sp?, thus fitting with twin carbs? 

 

Richard



#16 Allan Lupton

Allan Lupton
  • Member

  • 3,761 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 28 August 2019 - 10:41

The tyres are narrow section. Does anyone recognise the tread pattern?

 

.

Tyre is a normal 1950s/60s Pirelli



#17 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 9,832 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 28 August 2019 - 10:59

Call me crazy, call me stupid...

But I almost begin to believe we are dealing with a big twocylinder with twin sparkplugs!
Michael Ferner must know way more about this than I do but I recall having read that a number of US drivers in sprintcars and midgets who couldn't afford an Offy made all kind of own configurations based on larger engines. I vaguely remember a cut-up Bugatti engine.

Are we by chance looking at something like that over here?

#18 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 4,783 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 28 August 2019 - 17:14

I think we can safely exclude a V8, that would be VERY small cylinders and a VERY high driveline!! And the three exhaust ports are a pretty frequent feature for middle of the 20th century budget fours. Like Allan, though, I'm not really sure whether I'm seeing a front drive - difficult to clearly identify all the stuff that goes to that right front wheel, and clearly limited space for a front drive unit!

 

Henri, you're right about some weird engine experiments in the US, but this doesn't look at all American to me.



#19 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 9,832 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 28 August 2019 - 17:30

I think we can safely exclude a V8, that would be VERY small cylinders and a VERY high driveline!! And the three exhaust ports are a pretty frequent feature for middle of the 20th century budget fours. Like Allan, though, I'm not really sure whether I'm seeing a front drive - difficult to clearly identify all the stuff that goes to that right front wheel, and clearly limited space for a front drive unit!

 

Henri, you're right about some weird engine experiments in the US, but this doesn't look at all American to me.

 

Maybe a non-American weird engine experiment? I only mentioned the American things as an example but that doesn't imply they were only possible in the USA.

 

BTW, I am also not certain on this being frontdriven



Advertisement

#20 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 5,696 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 28 August 2019 - 17:48

DCN, is there a date given for the photograph on the full size REVS image screen? Clutching at straws here...
Roger Lund

#21 nicanary

nicanary
  • Member

  • 607 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 28 August 2019 - 20:41

Found it. It's Henri Otterbein's Simca Surva F3 which was entered at the 1954 Daily Express meeting. He constructed his own twin-cam head.

 

There's a photo on the 500cc Register site.



#22 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,621 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 28 August 2019 - 21:26

BRILLIANT!  No wonder it was puzzling me.  What I had on the tip of my tongue but just could not retrieve was definitely neither Otterbein nor Simca, but I am happy to accept Nicanary's ID above - so thank you for that.  This particular Revs Digilb photo is catalogued as having been taken by George Phillips of 'Autosport' on August 3, 1953, at 'The Daily Telegraph' 500cc Meeting, Brands Hatch, by the way...

 

But plainly my puzzlement was not altogether unjustified...  

 

DCN


Edited by Doug Nye, 28 August 2019 - 21:26.


#23 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 21,899 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 28 August 2019 - 21:42

I can’t get my head around this at all. If he was going to go to the trouble of building his own twin ohc head, why in heaven’s name did he (apparently) have inlet and exhaust ports on the same side?

:confused: :confused:

#24 GMACKIE

GMACKIE
  • Member

  • 7,250 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 28 August 2019 - 21:57

Same here, Tim. And why 'siamese' the exhaust ports... :confused:



#25 Jhdrussell

Jhdrussell
  • New Member

  • 28 posts
  • Joined: January 16

Posted 28 August 2019 - 22:40

Found it. It's Henri Otterbein's Simca Surva F3 which was entered at the 1954 Daily Express meeting. He constructed his own twin-cam head.
 
There's a photo on the 500cc Register site.


Very well done!!

#26 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 65,901 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 29 August 2019 - 04:30

So is it French?

#27 raceannouncer2003

raceannouncer2003
  • Member

  • 2,746 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 29 August 2019 - 05:28

Here's the link:

 

http://500race.org/m...es/simca-surva/

 

Vince H.



#28 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 9,832 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 29 August 2019 - 06:54

I can’t get my head around this at all. If he was going to go to the trouble of building his own twin ohc head, why in heaven’s name did he (apparently) have inlet and exhaust ports on the same side?

:confused: :confused:



you know the old wisdom: "why going the easy way if you can do it in a more difficult way too?"

#29 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,872 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 29 August 2019 - 06:59

The photograph of the engine on the 500cc register site looks like a cropped version of the one in the original post. It also appears in Autosport 14 August 1953 an in L’ėpopée française des “Racers 500” by François Jolly. The book also contains another picture of the car, probably at the start of the Montlhėry exhibition described in the website.

There is no description of the engine porting arrangements but but I suspect that the reasons come down, as usual, to money. Special builders always have to work with what is available and the results are sometimes very strange.

Edited by Roger Clark, 29 August 2019 - 10:12.


#30 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,621 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 29 August 2019 - 08:13

Hmmmm - this front suspension layout, with apparent transverse leaf spring up top and clearly un-driven...

 

Screen-Shot-2019-08-29-at-09-10-17.png

 

....does not match that shown in the 1953 pic at the head of this thread.  Development?  Or a different car - still by Otterbein?

 

DCN


Edited by Doug Nye, 29 August 2019 - 08:17.


#31 nicanary

nicanary
  • Member

  • 607 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 29 August 2019 - 08:21

BRILLIANT!  No wonder it was puzzling me.  What I had on the tip of my tongue but just could not retrieve was definitely neither Otterbein nor Simca, but I am happy to accept Nicanary's ID above - so thank you for that.  This particular Revs Digilb photo is catalogued as having been taken by George Phillips of 'Autosport' on August 3, 1953, at 'The Daily Telegraph' 500cc Meeting, Brands Hatch, by the way...

 

But plainly my puzzlement was not altogether unjustified...  

 

DCN

Thanks. I don't post all that much on here because I simply don't have the knowledge and experience of the regular contributors - quite frankly I'm out of my depth. I do however know where to look. It's the result of my time spent as a member of Autopuzzles, described quite often, although rather unfairly, as a bunch of weirdos. If you want obscure, there's no other site to visit.



#32 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,872 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 29 August 2019 - 10:19

There’s a photograph in Autosport of the car racing at Brands Hatch in 1953. The bodywork is completely different - the radiator inlet has no grill, ,just a simple rectangular opening with the horizontal axis longer than the vertical.

#33 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 65,901 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 29 August 2019 - 12:34

I don't think that's the same car at all...

We definitely need more photographic evidence.

#34 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 4,783 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 29 August 2019 - 13:36

Simca Surva? That's interesting. One of the first things going through my (empty) mind when looking at the original picture was Simca-Deho, but I quickly dismissed this after looking up some photos.

I think I have a couple of pictures of the Surva/Otterbein car at home, but the one on the 500 site pictured in 1950 is clearly a very different animal. Perhaps he built a new car during his apparent hiatus between 1951 and '54? I shall have a look at my records.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 29 August 2019 - 13:36.


#35 Jhdrussell

Jhdrussell
  • New Member

  • 28 posts
  • Joined: January 16

Posted 29 August 2019 - 17:16

Further information on Otterbein’s creation...

ADECC0-E2-D5-EA-4-F2-F-BDE2-85-FEA79-A78tiny image url

#36 nicanary

nicanary
  • Member

  • 607 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 29 August 2019 - 18:22

Simca Surva? That's interesting. One of the first things going through my (empty) mind when looking at the original picture was Simca-Deho, but I quickly dismissed this after looking up some photos.

I think I have a couple of pictures of the Surva/Otterbein car at home, but the one on the 500 site pictured in 1950 is clearly a very different animal. Perhaps he built a new car during his apparent hiatus between 1951 and '54? I shall have a look at my records.

I seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest! Having said that, it's important to get the facts right - future historians and all that. I hope someone can solve this and I agree that it's entirely possible that M.Otterbein had time on his hands to re-design the front end whilst he was going to the seemingly extravagant route of the bespoke t/c head. (Wouldn't it have been simpler to pay a visit to J A Prestwich?)

 

I have to admit I came across my answer by luck. I thought it might be one of those exquisite little Italian mini-GP cars from the early years of 500cc F3, and was scrolling down the marques on "that certain site" when I stumbled on the Surva. Is there no caption to the Revs Inst. photo?



#37 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 6,872 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 29 August 2019 - 19:35

It seems that M. Otterbein had three versions of his car.

In the 1940s he had a supercharger and ran in Formula 2 (2-litres without supercharger, 0.5-litres with). The car and his exploits are covered in Alessandro Silva’s Back on Track. It used Simca 5 engine, chassis, gearbox and suspension

In 1950 and 51 he raced in Formula 3, hopefully without a supercharger. I think this is the form described in the article posted by jhdrussell. I could see no mention of DOHC in the article.

In 1953 he raced the car illustrated in the original picture, DOHC, different suspension and bodywork. Whether this was the same car modified or a new one, I couldn’t say.

#38 Sebastian Tombs

Sebastian Tombs
  • Member

  • 2,066 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 29 August 2019 - 19:37

Bit out of my usual area of expertise but the country is right...I'll have a dig.  Meanwhile here's a rough transcription of the article..first call is what 'Italian hemispherical head' he used and how he turned the Solexes upside down.  Seems to have been well connected in the trade.

 

"H. Otterbein spoke to us about the 500 he has constructed and with which he has had several races in the last two years,
The chassis is a originally a SIMCA 5, with the U-section was closed with electrically spot-welded plates, to reinforce its strength. We have cut the normal  gear box mountings which, with another welded leg served as engine supports. This latter is mounted to SIMCA 5 engine with 48.5mm bore. The original engine has been fitted with a chromed crankshaft with a central bearing plate fitted to the block by electric welding. The con rods are duralumin with rose-metal bronze shells. [I think they mean white metal, rose metal is solder type with low melting point]  Cylinder head, Italian hemispherical type. Special camshaft with a very large crossover (?) , allowing revving at a very high speed for this small engine. Fuel pump drive on camshaft. Water pump, special intake and exhaust valves with two inverted Solex carburetors, diameter 26mm. Delco special SCINTILLA (Switzerland) distributor  for SIMCA 5, tested on the bench to 9,000 rpm.  The special coil is also Scintilla manufacture. Mr. Otierbein tells us about the enthusiasm of Mr. CHRISTIAN, representative of this Brussels establishment, who, in addition to the above components, provided from the Belgian capital the Champion LA 10 sparkplugs which are fitted to the engine. The oil sump has 4 litres capacity with radiator of 1 litre placed under the water radiator. Last was placed the front spring in the usual place."

 

Note...that is not a literal translation...befeore 'Les Tatillons' dive in.

 

ST :wave:



#39 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,621 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 29 August 2019 - 20:02

Good stuff - but perhaps none yet quite winning the star-prize washing machine...    ):

 

And - re Revs captioning - that's what I, my daughter, and some supporters are seeking to provide.  Anyone can join in.  There are only about another 350,000 images to go...

 

DCN



Advertisement

#40 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 65,901 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 29 August 2019 - 21:21

Not front wheel drive, then...

And the front suspension completely different between the two photos.

#41 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,621 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 29 August 2019 - 21:29

Yes Ray - thought provoking, isn't it?

 

DCN



#42 Sebastian Tombs

Sebastian Tombs
  • Member

  • 2,066 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 29 August 2019 - 23:45

The SIMCA 5 was virtually identical to the FIAT Topolino 500 with the same size engine.  In Italy both Testadoro (so called because the head was cast in bronze and designed by former Ferrari man Arnaldo Roselli, designer of the bi-motore) and SIATA made proprietary twin cam head conversions for the FIAT both of which would have fitted the SIMCA unit used by our friend Otterbein.  These heads were used on FIAT-derived limited edition sports cars that acquitted themselves well in the Mille Miglia.  These heads have been mentioned in TNF threads before, notably by D-Type I think.

I imagine the front suspension was boggo SIMCA transverse leaf without checking.  The temptation is to think the two cars illustrated were two different cars but a decent body man can work wonders on a sow's ear!

Something to be going on with.

btw my misunderstanding of 'croisement' can only mean 'overlap' as far as I can see.

 

ST :wave:

 

Edit typo


Edited by Sebastian Tombs, 29 August 2019 - 23:47.


#43 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 65,901 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 29 August 2019 - 23:51

I wonder if the latter photo shows some kind of rubber-band springing?

The early car is obviously transverse leaf, undoubtedly (as stated) from the Simca.

Are there photos of the Testadora head anywhere?

#44 Sebastian Tombs

Sebastian Tombs
  • Member

  • 2,066 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 30 August 2019 - 00:00

Ah, here's the Testadoro 570 head...it's not dohc but the Bristol type.
 
PkL0aFl.jpg
 
ST :wave: 

 

Edit.  Drawing copyright Dino Brunori (please don't sue!)


Edited by Sebastian Tombs, 30 August 2019 - 00:05.


#45 Sebastian Tombs

Sebastian Tombs
  • Member

  • 2,066 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 30 August 2019 - 00:26


Are there photos of the Testadora head anywhere?

 

Here's one Ray, nothing like our friend's though.  His must have been a SIATA.

 

TCxmix7.jpg

 

ST :wave:



#46 Sebastian Tombs

Sebastian Tombs
  • Member

  • 2,066 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 30 August 2019 - 00:46

Nope, not a SIATA either.  Going back to Doug's original pic that head must be a genuine dohc.  Another mystery.  Guy seems to be checking timing, can't be turning it over as the plugs are still in.  Time to look in French mags see if we can find details of these 'races' he's supposed to have competed in.

 

ST :wave:



#47 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 65,901 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 30 August 2019 - 09:17

The porting matches the Testadora head...

I wonder if he made his own twin cam arrangement to operated on the top of this head instead of using the pushrods?

#48 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 4,783 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 01 September 2019 - 13:14

Indeed, Ray! And the valve angle is similar, too, a bit over 90 degree methinks - though the ad says 90 degree, but it's not the same design as the one from the cutaway.



#49 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 65,901 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 01 September 2019 - 21:16

The cutaway differs from the advertisement...

It would look like a twin-cam.

Anyway, Michael, why haven't you taken Sebastian to task on the genesis of the 'Bristol type' design?

#50 Sebastian Tombs

Sebastian Tombs
  • Member

  • 2,066 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 02 September 2019 - 00:10

The cutaway differs from the advertisement...

It would look like a twin-cam.

Anyway, Michael, why haven't you taken Sebastian to task on the genesis of the 'Bristol type' design?

 

he he :)  Being an ex-Bristol owner I like to give the BAC more credit than they are certainly due, the engine in the 400 not being an exact copy of the 328 after all.  As for that dohc engine it remains a mystery.  Old Otterbein must have been a gifted fettler if he could design and get made either a complete head or some modification to the Testadora type incorporating a tappet system as the cams would have been a long way from the valve stem tips.  He certainly raced the Surva quite extensively in various guises at some serious race tracks but only the original itteration actually had a Surva blower.  He kept the name to advertise the bolt-on Surva kits he sold.  Intriguing.

 

ST :wave: