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Leclerc - Hamilton, Monza 2019 [split]


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#1 Requiem84

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 14:50

So, what was different between Verstappen-Bottas and the Leclerc-Hamilton incident this year?

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#2 JeePee

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 14:52

So, what was different between Verstappen-Bottas and the Leclerc-Hamilton incident this year?

Verstappen was not driving a Ferrari.

#3 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 14:55

So, what was different between Verstappen-Bottas and the Leclerc-Hamilton incident this year?


Leclerc is the new golden boy.

#4 Beri

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 14:57

So, what was different between Verstappen-Bottas and the Leclerc-Hamilton incident this year?


1) Black and White flag reintroduced
2) More lenient attitude by the stewards

#5 born1983

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:03

To be fair, this year’s decision was fine. Last year’s decision was ridiculous.

#6 MJB5990

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:05

It's not just the decision for me. It's the fact that Charles got the black and white flag then still made two questionable moves. One when he cut the chicane and then the block through T3.

#7 Massa

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:06

Let them race policy didn't last long in this forum..

#8 Ramon69

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:06

Hard racing. Deal with it.



#9 JBJ

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:06

1) Black and White flag reintroduced
2) More lenient attitude by the stewards

LeClerc got the black and white before this "incident"
He was warned to behave



#10 doc83

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:07

As I said in the race thread. Soon there will be only DRS passes left (in the middle of the straight). Defending driver is basically allowed to do anything these days anywhere near the corner.

#11 jacdaniel

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:09

Charles is the dirtiest driver on the grid. Made a suicide run at Monte Carlo and then drove around the majority of the track with a ripped tyre. Raced too hard against Max at Silverstone.

Today was a disgrace though. Forced Hamilton off track, moved under braking, cut corners.

He might be the new golden boy, but I don’t like him.

#12 Beri

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:10

LeClerc got the black and white before this "incident"
He was warned to behave


If not 1 then it is 2. Clear and simple answer. I'm happy for this attitude that the Stewards have taken on. #LetThemRace

#13 Astandahl

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:10

Let them race policy didn't last long in this forum..

Of course. FIA changed approach in Austria after Leclerc and Verstappen contact.

 

Don't understand why people don't get this.


Edited by Astandahl, 08 September 2019 - 15:10.


#14 kernel

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:11

Verstappen was not driving a Ferrari.

 

a Ferrari... at Monza



#15 Lerdes

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:11

It helped Leclerc a lot that this race was in Italy. But nonetheless a great showing of skills by him. Congratulations!

#16 MikeV1987

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:11

Hard racing, change the channel if you don't like it.



#17 hayabusasc

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:11

Hard racing. Deal with it.


Exactly this.

#18 derstatic

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:11

The difference is Austria. That verdict showed the drive on the outside can not expect to be given any room. This is consistent with how Austria, then Silverstone was judged.



#19 anyeis

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:12

Penalty for that? Not really. Verstappen was much clealer



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#20 Myrvold

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:12

It's not just the decision for me. It's the fact that Charles got the black and white flag then still made two questionable moves. One when he cut the chicane and then the block through T3.

 

He didn't gain a lasting advantage from the chicane, and T3 was really pushing it.
 

Charles is the dirtiest driver on the grid. Made a suicide run at Monte Carlo and then drove around the majority of the track with a ripped tyre. Raced too hard against Max at Silverstone.

Today was a disgrace though. Forced Hamilton off track, moved under braking, cut corners.

He might be the new golden boy, but I don’t like him.

The Monaco one can probably be written down to inexperience and frustration from something that wasn't his fault.

Silverstone was after Austria, you can see a clear difference in how Leclerc acts on track pre and post Austria.



#21 robefc

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:12

The difference is Austria. That verdict showed the drive on the outside can not expect to be given any room. This is consistent with how Austria, then Silverstone was judged.

 

No

 

Austria was on the exit of a corner and entirely in line wth accepted ra ing etiquette, nothing changed.



#22 SirT

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:12

Leclerc pushed the limits and went over them in my opinion but you can understand why because winning at Monza was worth the risk. It's the stewards that have bottled it.



#23 Kalmake

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:13

Black and white flag means you can do every little dirty trick once every race.



#24 SCUDmissile

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:13

Austria 2019 happened. I'm sorry folks. It's anything goes now. 

 

I said this after that race:

 

It is a disgusting tactic made prominent by talentless racers such as Nico Rosberg and been perpetuated by the RedBull driver academy.

It is a symptom of the DRS and the acres of runoff we have now.

I hope the 2021 regulations are as effective as they should be and the DRS is discontinued, and this kind of thing is nipped in the bud.

The days of good racers like Alonso and Kimi are ending it seems.

Everyone wants to act like a scumbag a las Schu and Senna, only they used to get punished despite the star status and it wasnt so commonplace across the rest of the grid.

If the 2021 regs don't solve this, then another black mark against F1

No matter what fools say, this isn't racing. Pushing your opponent off the track isn't racing.

You leave them just enough. But not less. This kind of thing would have got people injured or killed back in the day.

 

 

Formula 1 is ****ed if forcing your opponent off track is 'great racing' I only objected a little to Vettel's pen because Vettel lost control, but that was easy to stomach because he did block Lewis. You can look back, I said, rules are rules. They had better be this time. You want to blame anyone, blame the dirty drier that could have passed clean to cap off a great win, but didn't. But then, many commentators and posters on here had no problem with Max cutting the track to overtake Kimi in Austin 2017 either. The state  :rolleyes:

 

 

Charles Leclerc got the message loud and clear then that this is how racing is done in F1 now.

 

Today was another symptom of this bankrupt 'racing' of DRS1.

 

Hamilton fans are a powerful lobby group. Write to the FIA and get this changed. I hope we can end this somehow.

 

But as long as the RedBull driver academy exists in its current state, I doubt it.



#25 robefc

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:13

Of course. FIA changed approach in Austria after Leclerc and Verstappen contact.

 

Don't understand why people don't get this.

 

Because what happened in Austria is entirely in line with what has happened for season after season, race after race.



#26 Astandahl

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:14

Imagine if someone would actually compete with Lewis for the WDC :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:



#27 doc83

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:15

Black and white flag means you can do every little dirty trick once every race.


One dirty trick of every kind. Just as today.

#28 Massa

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:16

Nobody was saying something when Verstappen was zigzagging in front of the Ferrari in 2016 nearly each races.

Now that a Ferrari driver is defending his place hard, Hamilton and Mercedes fans are crying. Even a moderator said Leclerc cheated today.

The only cheat I saw this weekend is a Mercedes driver doing a quali lap under a red flag condition..

" But but but Ferrari International Assistance at Monza "

Edited by Massa, 08 September 2019 - 15:18.


#29 MJB5990

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:17

Nobody was saying something when Verstappen was zigzagging in front of the Ferrari in 2016 nearly each races.


Um, yes they were.

#30 Heyli

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:19

The difference is Austria. That verdict showed the drive on the outside can not expect to be given any room. This is consistent with how Austria, then Silverstone was judged.

That was at corner exit (like Sainz/Albon today), not corner entry...



#31 BuddyHolly

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:20

If people are complaining about this, I can barely imagine how this place would look in the Senna/Prost years. :rotfl:

 

imo it was good hard racing, I complement both Charles and Lewis on a fine show indeed.



#32 Heyli

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:20

Nobody was saying something when Verstappen was zigzagging in front of the Ferrari in 2016 nearly each races.

Now that a Ferrari driver is defending his place hard, Hamilton and Mercedes fans are crying. Even a moderator said Leclerc cheated today.

The only cheat I saw this weekend is a Mercedes driver doing a quali lap under a red flag condition..

" But but but Ferrari International Assistance at Monza "

Seriously? Nobody? 



#33 Fatgadget

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:20

A just race regardless policy will always be at odds with the fair racing conundrum. You can't have both.



#34 TheGoldenStoffel

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:21

Hamilton fan here, congratulations to Charles! He was right on the edge and maybe a bit over it but that's where he got the the black/white flag for, penalizing Leclerc would've totally ruined the race and winning a race that way doesn't feel right either.



#35 Jovanotti

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:21

Chopping moves are here to stay unfortunately, introduced by the new guys and never penalized. But gosh I hate this kind of driving.

#36 Marklar

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:21

Similar to Silverstone I do think that it was on the limit but still okay (and if it wasnt Hamilton wouldnt have congratulated him straight after the race, I cant believe that you guys are still not getting it that every driver moans on the team radio automatically when somebody races tough)

Not really sure  how Leclerc got the black and white flag for one thing but not for the other, it's like they didnt want to give the 2nd yellow card against the home team. We'll see how they handle this in future races since it's just reintroduce, but I fear that they will be very creative on this one. We'll see.



#37 Kalmake

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:21

After Leclerc went off in the first chicane, his engineer warned him about weaving before turn 4. So did the FIA give a verbal warning about that?



#38 SophieB

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:21

Nobody was saying something when Verstappen was zigzagging in front of the Ferrari in 2016 nearly each races.
Now that a Ferrari driver is defending his place hard, Hamilton and Mercedes fans are crying. Even a moderator said Leclerc cheated today.
The only cheat I saw this weekend is a Mercedes drivers doing a quali lap under a red flag condition..
" But but but Ferrari International Assistance at Monza "


I said it and stand by it. I praised Leclerc’s driving earlier this season, said he should have won at Bahrain and saw him as the ‘real’ winner. But today was a depressing glimpse into how when faced with appalling standards on track, the sport has lacked the imagination, Will or moral fibre to change behaviours and instead resorted to its favourite low effort tactic, namely pretending what is happening isn’t a problem at all! It’s actually good and exciting!

As to no one saying anything about Verstappen’s weaving, I think I can just say it did get mentioned. Once or twice.



#39 SilverArrow31

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:21

Nobody was saying something when Verstappen was zigzagging in front of the Ferrari in 2016 nearly each races.

Now that a Ferrari driver is defending his place hard, Hamilton and Mercedes fans are crying. Even a moderator said Leclerc cheated today.

The only cheat I saw this weekend is a Mercedes driver doing a quali lap under a red flag condition..

" But but but Ferrari International Assistance at Monza "

A large majority was moaning about Verstappen! Don't turn this into Mercedes vs Ferrari your guy did this, well your guy did that rubbish

Edited by SilverArrow31, 08 September 2019 - 15:25.


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#40 SophieB

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:23

Similar to Silverstone I do think that it was on the limit but still okay (and if it wasnt Hamilton wouldnt have congratulated him straight after the race, I cant believe that you guys are still not getting it that every driver moans on the team radio automatically when somebody races tough)
Not really sure  how Leclerc got the black and white flag for one thing but not for the other, it's like they didnt want to give the 2nd yellow card against the home team. We'll see how they handle this in future races since it's just reintroduce, but I fear that they will be very creative on this one. We'll see.


That is exactly what I thought, they didn’t want to hand out two cards because it would have been embarrassing, Not too embarrassing to carry it out in reality, but too embarrassing to broadcast.

#41 Jordan44

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:24

Hard racing. Deal with it.

 

Hard racing != Fair racing



#42 Massa

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:25

That was at corner exit (like Sainz/Albon today), not corner entry...



So you are allowed to close any space at the exit of a corner but not at the entry ? Where it is written ?

#43 Marklar

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:25

Nobody was saying something when Verstappen was zigzagging in front of the Ferrari in 2016 nearly each races.

You are living in a alternate reality



#44 OO7

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:26

The problem isn't Charles, the problem is the stewarding.  They should've stamped this out a long time ago but didn't, so we can't really blame the drivers who take advantage of it.


Edited by OO7, 08 September 2019 - 15:27.


#45 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:26

After Leclerc went off in the first chicane, his engineer warned him about weaving before turn 4. So did the FIA give a verbal warning about that?

Let's call it another half of black and white flag.  Not a fan of Leclerc after this race, way too dirty IMO.  I think he should've been docked the lead twice today for what he did (and before all the fans start whining about penalties, the threat of penalties is the only way to discourage dirty driving).



#46 Jordan44

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:27

The stewards have shown a new level of incompetence this weekend - it's getting worse, not better. The black and white flag coming back feels like a change Masi made just to assert he's now in the top position. There's a reason Charlie never used it, because it encourages leniency. One stewarding team at all races with someone who doesn't give a crap about the state of the sport (i.e. pissing off fans)


Edited by Jordan44, 08 September 2019 - 15:27.


#47 MikeV1987

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:28

The stewards are good in my books when it comes to this. We don’t need draconian stewarding when any action is a rarity.

If their roles were reversed we certainly wouldn’t see any complaining. Just some “goat” posts.

Edited by MikeV1987, 08 September 2019 - 15:30.


#48 KeithD68

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:28

Anyone think F1 is going to take a decision against a Ferrari driver in Monza for anything that isn't an absolute clear cut infringement is living in cloud cuckoo land



#49 Retrofly

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:29

No point arguing, this is how it is now, gloves are off, feel free to move around and block all you like.

 

I don't blame Leclerc, it earned him the victory. No point crying about it now. Well done Leclerc.


Edited by Retrofly, 08 September 2019 - 15:29.


#50 Massa

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 15:30

I said if and stand by it. I praised Leclerc’s driving earlier this season, said he should have won at Bahrain and saw him as the ‘real’ winner. But today was a depressing glimpse into how when faced with appalling standards on track, the sport has lacked the imagination, Will or moral fibre to change behaviours and instead resorted to its favourite low effort tactic, namely pretending what is happening isn’t a problem at all! It’s actually good and exciting!

As to no one saying anything about Verstappen’s weaving, I think I can just say it did get mentioned. Once or twice.



After what happened in Austria, Leclerc did nothing wrong IMHO.

Everybody wants what happened in Silverstone or today, some ( Horner and others) were speaking about wheel banging.

There we go now..

Leclerc did to Hamilton what Verstappen did to him in Austria, not leaving him space. You can't blame Leclerc at Austria and then blame him today.