46 replies to this topic

[Reynardff]

Iam sure this will upset UK posters but here in the Southern Hemisphere we see things differently and maybe a little less bias. The reason for this post was finally spured by the Alonso penalty which I think was totally uncalled for as it was a racing  tactic used since the beginning of racing as we know it. Some other cases recently was Lando starting outside his box after moving before the green. If you find an excuse for moving there was no excuse for being outside the box. Interestingly was it not another non English driver who was penalised recently for that very same thing. From personnal experience another car moving at the critical moment is distracting to other drivers and could in some cases cause another driver to move although rare the distraction is not. 

Again Lando crossed the exit line from the pits in Melbourne which seemed to be, by the angle, an attempt to cut off his team mate from passing. My opinion shared by others but silence from FOX FIA etc. 

I could list a few concerning Hamilton, Silverstone stands out as the most blatant.

Edited by Reynardff, 31 March 2024 - 23:05.

[PayasYouRace]

Please post the nationalities of all the stewards involved in the decisions you’re referring to.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

Ok so prove it's got anything to do with English stewards. Post every relevant decision you're talking about, plus the name and nationalities of all relevant stewards involved in said decisions. Also please prove that 1 specific English steward made the decision themselves regardless of what any non-English stewards said and that the decision that specific English steward made was incorrect, providing clear proof that the decision is wrong (not an opinion, but actual factual 100% proof that cannot be disputed in any way). This applies to all decisions you're referring to.

 

For reference, the only bit of that you CAN do is give the decision, the name, and the nationality of the stewards involved. The rest of it you can't prove, nor can you provide proof to back up your claims. You know this.

 

I would say "good luck" but, you know, you haven't got a chance of proving anything of the sort (and you know it too)

Edited by HuddersfieldTerrier1986, 31 March 2024 - 23:30.

[AncientLurker]

I could list a few concerning Hamilton, Silverstone stands out as the most blatant.

Historically, throughout his career, Hamilton has received a lot of dubious penalties from some very strange rulings. He is not a good example if you want to talk about English bias.

[EvilPhil II]

I'm British and I am not offended by what you are posting.

 

The Alonso penalty, which is the first I have ever seen of its like being applied to a car that made no contact and/or was not alongside another car, will have serious repercussions on any future racing.

 

DRS is the cause. It makes it impossible for a slower car in front to remain in position and leads to the driver having to be extra aggressive in order to have any fair fighting chance.

 

Sadly, the rules prevent racing rather than encourage it, particularly so once the field is actually close enough to race like the past 2 years.  However, the rules encourage overtaking.  But overtaking is not racing and is as interesting as watching the M4 from a motorway bridge. 

 

However, do the decisions favor the British? Im not sure. What I feel we have more of a problem with is unqualified stewards who feel the need to make decisions rather than only make them when they are required. I.e. they don't know their place and purpose and are waiting on opportunities for their moment on the stage. 

Edited by EvilPhil II, 31 March 2024 - 23:34.

[P123]

Not exactly a well argued opening post.

[Reynardff]

I did not say the stewards were all English please read what I wrote not how you want it to read. Seems comprehension is another problem in England.

[pdac]

I did not say the stewards were all English please read what I wrote not how you want it to read. Seems comprehension is another problem in England.

 

Ah, so you're saying that ALL stewards have a propensity to favour English or British drivers and to disfavour drivers who are of other nationalities.

[Myrvold]

I did not say the stewards were all English please read what I wrote not how you want it to read. Seems comprehension is another problem in England.

 

But could you at least give some sources. With that I mean e.g "Interestingly was it not another non English driver who was penalised recently for that very same thing." - Then link to that decision.

"Again Lando crossed the exit line from the pits in Melbourne which seemed to be, by the angle, an attempt to cut off his team mate from passing." - A link to this could be useful, or an exact "lap X".

"I could list a few concerning Hamilton, Silverstone stands out as the most blatant." - Are we back to 2021 now? How does that penalty differ from other contact-penalties in 2021? Provide examples.

 

Oh, also " The reason for this post was finally spured by the Alonso penalty which I think was totally uncalled for as it was a racing  tactic used since the beginning of racing as we know it. " - I would love to see examples of drivers braking where they accelerate on every other lap, and then have to accelerate and upshift before again braking in to a corner. If that specific action is a "racing tactic used sunce the beginning of racing".

 

You are the one coming with the claims. So you should be the one backing it up.

[ANF]

Fnglish International Assistance

[Ragamuffin]

Iam sure this will upset UK posters but here in the Southern Hemisphere we see things differently and maybe a little less bias. The reason for this post was finally spured by the Alonso penalty which I think was totally uncalled for as it was a racing  tactic used since the beginning of racing as we know it. Some other cases recently was Lando starting outside his box after moving before the green. If you find an excuse for moving there was no excuse for being outside the box. Interestingly was it not another non English driver who was penalised recently for that very same thing. From personnal experience another car moving at the critical moment is distracting to other drivers and could in some cases cause another driver to move although rare the distraction is not. 

Again Lando crossed the exit line from the pits in Melbourne which seemed to be, by the angle, an attempt to cut off his team mate from passing. My opinion shared by others but silence from FOX FIA etc. 

I could list a few concerning Hamilton, Silverstone stands out as the most blatant.

 

Now, I know you've seen the McLaren thread, so you're not off to a great start.

[DRSwing]

The OP’s point may sound contentious but given how inconsistent the stewards have been , it is hard not to think that there is some form of bias that seems to favor certain drivers.

 

I guess the recent non penalty for something that is a slam dunk like a jump start helps to enhance that kind of impression. In the same race, Lando was weaving on the straight in front of Hamilton but also got away lightly. If the FIA wanted to penalize so called erratic or potentially dangerous driving with a hefty penalty, then they have to be consistent and punish all these types of transgressions, especially since the stewards have emphasized that they punished the action but not the consequence. 

[RoryFormula1]

The OP’s point may sound contentious but given how inconsistent the stewards have been , it is hard not to think that there is some form of bias that seems to favor certain drivers.

I guess the recent non penalty for something that is a slam dunk like a jump start helps to enhance that kind of impression. In the same race, Lando was weaving on the straight in front of Hamilton but also got away lightly. If the FIA wanted to penalize so called erratic or potentially dangerous driving with a hefty penalty, then they have to be consistent and punish all these types of transgressions, especially since the stewards have emphasized that they punished the action but not the consequence.

I think people are resistant because it seems like there is a fundamental lack of understanding of the rules by OP and that his initial examples don’t support his position. To your examples:


1)My understanding is the rule is quite clear. Unless the sensors capture your car moving outside of the box before the lights go off, no penalty. I can think of two other instances in which this occurred and the drivers didn’t get a penalty; Lewis and Bottas.

2)Do you mean trying to break the tow? That’s been happening for atleast a decade. Or do you mean moving in the braking zone? I think it was close for Lando and he may have got a warning?

Edited by RoryFormula1, 01 April 2024 - 01:49.

[Reynardff]

Lando started outside the box no ifs buts or anything else. Are you saying that a driver who clearly does not go over the track limit but the electronic says he did that the stewards should go with the sensor. Do the rules say the stewards are unable to overule the electronic sensor. Constant asking for evidence when it was plain as day to anyone watching the races. Open your eyes!

[DRSwing]

I think people are resistant because it seems like there is a fundamental lack of understanding of the rules by OP and that his initial examples don’t support his position. To your examples:


1)My understanding is the rule is quite clear. Unless the sensors capture your car moving outside of the box before the lights go off, no penalty. I can think of two other instances in which this occurred and the drivers didn’t get a penalty; Lewis and Bottas.

2)Do you mean trying to break the tow? That’s been happening for atleast a decade. Or do you mean moving in the braking zone? I think it was close for Lando and he may have got a warning?

I did read about the sensor non-capture that was the justification for not imposing a penalty, but it was clear that he jumped started. For the second case, yes he was trying to defend by breaking the tow by weaving, and got off with a black and white flag . Both instances could have been deemed erratic and potentially dangerous driving, but were not penalized, compared to the Alonso case, which could also be argued that it was a tactic that drivers use to  defend and was penalized heavily. 
 

I don’t want to get into the specifics of whether these cases should be penalized or not, but these are examples that show the inconsistency of the stewards, which is something that is always there but to me is getting worse. It’s therefore unsurprising that there are views that the stewards are biased towards certain drivers as mentioned by the OP. 

[AustinF1]

I'm British and I am not offended by what you are posting.

 

The Alonso penalty, which is the first I have ever seen of its like being applied to a car that made no contact and/or was not alongside another car, will have serious repercussions on any future racing.

 

DRS is the cause. It makes it impossible for a slower car in front to remain in position and leads to the driver having to be extra aggressive in order to have any fair fighting chance.

 

Sadly, the rules prevent racing rather than encourage it, particularly so once the field is actually close enough to race like the past 2 years.  However, the rules encourage overtaking.  But overtaking is not racing and is as interesting as watching the M4 from a motorway bridge. 

 

However, do the decisions favor the British? Im not sure. What I feel we have more of a problem with is unqualified stewards who feel the need to make decisions rather than only make them when they are required. I.e. they don't know their place and purpose and are waiting on opportunities for their moment on the stage. 

Just what I've been saying and started a thread about years ago. F1 needs trained, travelling, full-time stewards, who are evaluated on a regular basis.

[RoryFormula1]

I did read about the sensor non-capture that was the justification for not imposing a penalty, but it was clear that he jumped started. For the second case, yes he was trying to defend by breaking the tow by weaving, and got off with a black and white flag . Both instances could have been deemed erratic and potentially dangerous driving, but were not penalized, compared to the Alonso case, which could also be argued that it was a tactic that drivers use to defend and was penalized heavily.

I don’t want to get into the specifics of whether these cases should be penalized or not, but these are examples that show the inconsistency of the stewards, which is something that is always there but to me is getting worse. It’s therefore unsurprising that there are views that the stewards are biased towards certain drivers as mentioned by the OP.

So your position is that although the FIA have a rule that outlines exactly what will constitute a jump start, have a system in place to determine if the rule is broken, and we have instances in which multiple drivers of various nationalities have moved before the start but received no penalty because they did not trip the system, rule enforcement is inconsistent/bias? It seems more likely that you have a problem with the rule. If anything penalizing someone even though they didn’t trip the system is the exact thing you and OP are arguing.

I may not be the biggest connoisseur of various racing series but attempting to break the tow of a car that’s drafting behind you can be seen in other racing series. Accelerating, slowing down, downshifting, then accelerating, and up shifting leading to a corner sounds far more erratic.

[ClubmanGT]

Eh, I find the British slant on other aspects of the sport to be more jarring. The Allen/Button era was bad, the Crofty/Hamilton era was worse. At least they seem to have acknowledged that in the coverage of the Aus GP, where they did note that not everyone was getting up in the middle of the night and endlessly complaining about it. First time for everything I guess. 

 

Until we get individual or dissenting stewards reports (which would be fascinating reading tbh) then it's too hard to know why our how a certain steward feels a certain way. 

 

As others have said, permanent, full-time stewards are the go. It doesn't stop Supercars from having the odd clanger but it would be a step in the right direction. The decision we got in the Aus GP has some pretty wide ramifications for defending if you can't deviate from the racing line, change your corner entry or exit or try and wrong-foot the car that's coming up behind you. We'll inevitably see more defending labeled as 'erratic' and I feel that the stewarding system should be set up so that they don't make rulings that have that kind of flow-on effect (i.e. they're predictable and focused on improving the application and function of the rules). 

[Jones Foyer]

I did not say the stewards were all English please read what I wrote not how you want it to read. Seems comprehension is another problem in England.

Watch it.

[AustinF1]

Eh, I find the British slant on other aspects of the sport to be more jarring. The Allen/Button era was bad, the Crofty/Hamilton era was worse. At least they seem to have acknowledged that in the coverage of the Aus GP, where they did note that not everyone was getting up in the middle of the night and endlessly complaining about it. First time for everything I guess. 

 

Until we get individual or dissenting stewards reports (which would be fascinating reading tbh) then it's too hard to know why our how a certain steward feels a certain way. 

 

As others have said, permanent, full-time stewards are the go. It doesn't stop Supercars from having the odd clanger but it would be a step in the right direction. The decision we got in the Aus GP has some pretty wide ramifications for defending if you can't deviate from the racing line, change your corner entry or exit or try and wrong-foot the car that's coming up behind you. We'll inevitably see more defending labeled as 'erratic' and I feel that the stewarding system should be set up so that they don't make rulings that have that kind of flow-on effect (i.e. they're predictable and focused on improving the application and function of the rules). 

I love your idea of - in addition to having permanent, travelling, trained, evaluated stewards - instituting full transparency in the form of written opinions from each steward.  And yep, of course there will still be some decisions here and there that fans and drivers don't agree with, but that kind of system would lead to far greater predictability of enforcement and imho far better rule compliance and driving standards than what we see currently.

Edited by AustinF1, 01 April 2024 - 05:40.

[Dolph]

I love your idea of - in addition to having permanent, travelling, trained, evaluated stewards - instituting full transparency in the form of written opinions from each steward. And yep, of course there will still be some decisions here and there that fans and drivers don't agree with, but that kind of system would lead to far greater predictability and imho far better rule compliance and driving standards than what we see currently.

Lets not forget they need to add their home addresses. How else would the "fans" know where to send the death threats, right!?

Edited by Dolph, 01 April 2024 - 05:11.

[AustinF1]

Lets not forget they need to add their home addresses. How else would the "fans" know where to send the death threats, right!?

LOL no I don't think addresses or names on individual opinions would be necessary.

[Mat13]

Iam sure this will upset UK posters but here in the Southern Hemisphere we see things differently and maybe a little less bias. The reason for this post was finally spured by the Alonso penalty which I think was totally uncalled for as it was a racing tactic used since the beginning of racing as we know it. Some other cases recently was Lando starting outside his box after moving before the green. If you find an excuse for moving there was no excuse for being outside the box. Interestingly was it not another non English driver who was penalised recently for that very same thing. From personnal experience another car moving at the critical moment is distracting to other drivers and could in some cases cause another driver to move although rare the distraction is not.
Again Lando crossed the exit line from the pits in Melbourne which seemed to be, by the angle, an attempt to cut off his team mate from passing. My opinion shared by others but silence from FOX FIA etc.
I could list a few concerning Hamilton, Silverstone stands out as the most blatant.

Driver I like being penalised, driver I constantly slate not being penalised for a different thing= English bias.


Right.

[cbo]

The Perfidious Albion World Conspiracy strikes again, I see....

😁

[Muppetmad]

Don't attribute to malice that which can be attributed to incompetence - and believe me, there's plenty of that to go around at the FIA.

[loki]

Pro tip.  When someone says they have less bias in general it’s another sort of bias.

[prty]

I am a Spaniard and wouldn't deny Dorna favouring Spanish drivers in motorbikes.

And for similar reasons I think there was always a British bias in F1. I still remember Alonso's penalty in Hungary 2007. It was probably the first and only time in F1's history that a driver was penalized for what happened in the box, which is a private team matter.

Rosberg mentioned once that Schumacher waited inside the only toilet until the very last second so that he couldn't use it before qualifying / race, it's like if the FIA had punished him for that.

Not so blatant, but it was a similar far fetched penalty in Australia with Russell. And Johnny Herbert shouldn't be anywhere near the decision making chain for enforcing rules.

Edited by prty, 01 April 2024 - 07:19.

[pacificquay]

I don’t see a bias in the stewards.

 

The only F1 bias I see is the very anti-British bias of this forum, and anti-McLaren bias from this forum and various commentators.

[Mark1865]

Is this just bias in favour of English drivers or teams? Also, is it English or British bias? It’s hard to keep up.

Funny that Silverstone was mentioned in the OP, if F1 was biased in favour of the English then I feel 2021 may have ended a bit differently.

For me, claiming bias based on nationality is an argument you make when you have nothing else to support your argument.

[PayasYouRace]

I did not say the stewards were all English please read what I wrote not how you want it to read. Seems comprehension is another problem in England.

I will ask again. Please bring evidence to support your position. If you can’t, this thread will be closed as just an anti-English rant. Xenophobia is not allowed on this forum.

[P123]

Lando started outside the box no ifs buts or anything else. Are you saying that a driver who clearly does not go over the track limit but the electronic says he did that the stewards should go with the sensor. Do the rules say the stewards are unable to overule the electronic sensor. Constant asking for evidence when it was plain as day to anyone watching the races. Open your eyes!

 

There were ifs and buts though.  Similar to Vettel back in Suzuka 2019 where he started then stopped.  Or Bottas anticipating the lights at Austria back in 2017.  But what is the link to 'English biased stewards' or stewards biased towards the English?  From what I recall, there were no English stewards in Saudi.

[Reynardff]

I will ask again. Please bring evidence to support your position. If you can’t, this thread will be closed as just an anti-English rant. Xenophobia is not allowed on this forum.

I did give you examples but close it if you will and prove me right you cant take critiscism.

[Reynardff]

There were ifs and buts though.  Similar to Vettel back in Suzuka 2019 where he started then stopped.  Or Bottas anticipating the lights at Austria back in 2017.  But what is the link to 'English biased stewards' or stewards biased towards the English?  From what I recall, there were no English stewards in Saudi.

Did Lando start inside or outside his box? Even if you forget the movement prior. 

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

You haven't provided proof of anything. Your words (which is all you've given) aren't proof. Where are the photos and videos that back up your claims for any decision you claim to involve any form of bias. Where is the ACTUAL PROOF of ANY sort of bias by anyone, either in favour of, or against anyone? Where is it? Prove there's bias. Go on kid. Prove it.

Oh. You can't.

Edited by HuddersfieldTerrier1986, 01 April 2024 - 08:39.

[Ragamuffin]

Did Lando start inside or outside his box? Even if you forget the movement prior. 

Even if he did, how is it proof of systemic bias? Have you looked at all penalties or apparent penalties and weighed them up their validity for all drivers and then noted a pattern based on nationality? That I could respect, even if I disagreed. Or have you gone off ironically half-cocked in a woeful attempt at impartiality?

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

Even if he did, how is it proof of systemic bias? Have you looked at all penalties or apparent penalties and weighed them up their validity for all drivers and then noted a pattern based on nationality? That I could respect, even if I disagreed. Or have you gone off ironically half-cocked in a woeful attempt at impartiality?

He also forgets that 1 steward doesn't make decisions, and he's waffling on like he has access to all team radio, telemetry, what was said in the stewards room, etc for all these allegedly biased decisions. He's failing to prove any sort of bias (and he knows he can't provide any proof)

[taran]

It's funny that when a British bias is suggested, everyone DEMANDS evidence.

 

 

Yet when it comes to slinging dirt at Horner and/or Red Bull, no evidence is needed. Just accusations, innuendo, and leaked edited messages .

[New Britain]

Just what I've been saying and started a thread about years ago. F1 needs trained, travelling, full-time stewards, who are evaluated on a regular basis.

We used to have one - Tony Scott Andrews. His problem was that he was too competent and too honest, so Mosley sacked him. 

[pacificquay]

It's funny that when a British bias is suggested, everyone DEMANDS evidence.

 

 

Yet when it comes to slinging dirt at Horner and/or Red Bull, no evidence is needed. Just accusations, innuendo, and leaked edited messages .

Horner and Red Bull Racing are both British so I’m not sure your argument works very far there

[New Britain]

In recent times, the most flagrant and outrageous example  - and with the greatest consequences - of the stewards' getting something wrong was Abu Dhabi 2021.

I'm trying to remember...did they favour an English driver then?

[Mat13]

I did give you examples but close it if you will and prove me right you cant take critiscism.

PAYR, are you a steward?! Please keep this open, as it might improve the McLaren team thread- a sacrificial lamb, if you will.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

It's funny that when a British bias is suggested, everyone DEMANDS evidence.


Yet when it comes to slinging dirt at Horner and/or Red Bull, no evidence is needed. Just accusations, innuendo, and leaked edited messages .

Totally different situations (as you well know). He's claiming bias. The onus is on him to provide irrefutable evidence/proof to back up his claims. He hasn't been able to, nor will he ever be able to. He knows this.

[Brian60]

Isn't this just a case of anything English/British is bad, the rest of the world is good? The sister mag to this (motorsport) their forum is full of this nonsense, perhaps the OP may feel more at home over there?

[Cliff]

I do think F1 has a pro British bias, but then again it would be strange if it hadn’t. Considering that most people working in the sport (teams, main media, stewards, etc) are British.. Do I think it’s a problem? No.

Edited by Cliff, 01 April 2024 - 09:06.

[Mark1865]

In recent times, the most flagrant and outrageous example - and with the greatest consequences - of the stewards' getting something wrong was Abu Dhabi 2021.
I'm trying to remember...did they favour an English driver then?

Obviously biased because they favoured the English team principal. Is that how it works?

[BRG]

Adelaide 1994

Abu Dhabi 2021

 

Two clear examples of how British drivers are favoured by stewards and/or FIA officials.

[PayasYouRace]

With no evidence to back up the OP's claims, this is clearly just an anti-English rant.

 

Specific incidents may be discussed in individual threads. We already have discussions open for two mentioned in the OP.

 

Alonso and Russell: https://forums.autos...-gp-2024-split/

 

Norris jump start: https://forums.autos...dah-2024-split/

 

We certainly have a thread about Christian Horner and the claims made against him: https://forums.autos...lleague-edited/

 

This isn't about not taking criticism, as none has been offered. This isn't about taking offence, as none has been taken. 

 

House Rules:

 

Acceptable Behaviour

• Xenophobic, homophobic, sexist and other hateful comments are prohibited. Please report them. Particularly egregious comments may result in the member being permanently excluded.

 

 

As one of the non-English members of the mod team, I'm happy to close this thread. Please respect the forum and house rules, and each other.