837 replies to this topic

[Hellenic tifosi]

BertoC, on 08 Apr 2025 - 08:05, said:

Theres also a scenario of 2nd and 3rd with unhappy drivers thinking they were treated unfairly and full on drama.

 

That's why you communicate the plan well in advance.

[Gary Davies]

Over at Autosport*, there's an article by Jake Boxall-Legge titled "Why dirty air is such a problem in F1 2025".

 

One of the respondents, someone with the username of Bandini Fan wrote: "It’s been boring and will remain boring is what you are saying.

 

"I have been watching for 60 years and this is the first time I actually switched off before the end of the race. It’s a tragedy what has been done to a once great sport.

 

"Exacerbated by little difference between hard and medium compounds. More tyre degradation and two stopper might have helped.

 

"I fail to understand why all of the complexities around the wings and floor are not simply outlawed. Let’s reduce downforce dramatically and go back to more mechanical grip please."

 

Another (jordidm99) wrote: "...it's the same problem F1 has faced for decades: does it want to be a technological war or does it want to be a spectacle?"

 

They both made excellent points.

 

When I first became interested in Formula One (probably around the same time as Bandini Fan) the battle between constructors around technology was relevant because the technology available to the likes of Chapman, Rudd, Ferrari and Brabham/Tauranac did not require insane amounts of money for full size wind tunnels, computer processors (what were they??) running at warp speed or OxBridge academics.

 

But today, the money in F1 and the available technology make it necessary for the FIA to impose a complicated matrix of rules in order for the sport/business (take your pick) to survive. 

 

I'm neither criticising nor condoning this state of affairs, but jordidm99's question is a good one. 

 

* If you can't see the article because it's behind a paywall, I recommend becoming a subscriber.

Edited by Gary Davies, 08 April 2025 - 09:14.

[Nemo1965]

Gary Davies, on 08 Apr 2025 - 08:57, said:

 

Over at Autosport*, there's an article by Jake Boxall-Legge titled "Why dirty air is such a problem in F1 2025".

 

One of the respondents, someone with the username of Bandini Fan wrote: "It’s been boring and will remain boring is what you are saying.

 

"I have been watching for 60 years and this is the first time I actually switched off before the end of the race. It’s a tragedy what has been done to a once great sport.

 

"Exacerbated by little difference between hard and medium compounds. More tyre degradation and two stopper might have helped.

 

"I fail to understand why all of the complexities around the wings and floor are not simply outlawed. Let’s reduce downforce dramatically and go back to more mechanical grip please."

 

Another (jordidm99) wrote: "...it's the same problem F1 has faced for decades: does it want to be a technological war or does it want to be a spectacle?"

 

They both made excellent points.

 

When I first became interested in Formula One (probably around the same time as Bandini Fan) the battle between constructors around technology was relevant because the technology available to the likes of Chapman, Rudd, Ferrari and Brabham/Tauranac did not require insane amounts of money for full size wind tunnels, computer processors (what were they??) running at warp speed or OxBridge academics.

 

But today, the money in F1 and the available technology make it necessary for the FIA to impose a complicated matrix of rules in order for the sport/business (take your pick) to survive. 

 

I'm neither criticising nor condemning this state of affairs, but jordidm99's question is a good one. 

 

* If you can't see the article because it's behind a paywall, I recommend becoming a subscriber.

 

 

I recently saw the floor of the Ferrari-car, as drawn by Giorgio Piola. Good heavens! Why doesn't the FIA just mandate that the majority of the floor must be completely flat, with the exception of the venturi-channels (providing they/we still want groundeffect-cars). This would get rid of the dirty air for the largest part, I think (saying this with no engineering degree).

Edited by Nemo1965, 08 April 2025 - 09:15.

[TomNokoe]

Nemo1965, on 08 Apr 2025 - 06:53, said:

Coming back to the race in itself, and the baffling decision of McLaren not to pit either Piastri later or Norris, I think I get it now. I think McLaren is really scared to 'disadvantage' any driver. Pit Norris later, the chance is that he gives Max AND Piastri an undercut. Pit Piastri later than Max, he ends up in front of Leclerc, sure, but the risk is that Max and his teammate are then too far up the road to threaten them.

My conclusion: the McLaren-drivers and the team are more busy managing the peace between them than beating Max to the title.

I agree, paralysed by equality.

Piastri qualified behind and spent the first half of the race behind. He should have been used to cover Leclerc and Russell while Norris ran long to attack Max later.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Nemo1965, on 08 Apr 2025 - 08:05, said:

I am not a fan of drivers of teams, so I can not really 'feel' your opinion, only that you seem to think I was being negative about McLaren (like you are with your remark about the 2nd Red Bull-car. Why?) But let me react about the 'only round 3-argument'. Personally I think that if you want to win the championship you always try to to win as many GP's as possible early in the year if you have a clear speed advantage and later in the year, when you have a margin to your rivals, you start to maximize the results. You never know if your advantage (your team, as it were) is going to evaporate (look at Max last year).

 

I don't know if Red Bull looks tense and miserable, I can't watch behind the scenes. I can see Max, who seems totally unperturbed. I can't see behind the scenes at McLaren either, so we will only know after this year how the mood really was. 

 

I think you're absolutely correct. They're using up a lot of their time keeping the peace between the two...perhaps taking their eye off the ball when it comes to looking at the grand scheme of things in a race.

 

Maybe they need a Rubinho in the second seat.

[IrvTheSwerve]

TomNokoe, on 08 Apr 2025 - 12:59, said:

I agree, paralysed by equality.

Piastri qualified behind and spent the first half of the race behind. He should have been used to cover Leclerc and Russell while Norris ran long to attack Max later.

 

That's a good phrase to sum it up.

[KWSN - DSM]

IrvTheSwerve, on 08 Apr 2025 - 13:09, said:

I think you're absolutely correct. They're using up a lot of their time keeping the peace between the two...perhaps taking their eye off the ball when it comes to looking at the grand scheme of things in a race.

 

Maybe they need a Rubinho in the second seat.

 

I think they already have.

[IrvTheSwerve]

KWSN - DSM, on 08 Apr 2025 - 13:44, said:

I think they already have.

 

 

Good luck. 

 

[RedRabbit]

KWSN - DSM, on 08 Apr 2025 - 13:44, said:

I think they already have.

Do you think Lando is as good as Rubens? 😋

[rodlamas]

The Japanese GP will have some direct impact on the tire choice on any of the tracks Pirelli still has not manufactured the tires for.

C6 will appear much more than first thought.

Imola first candidate -> Isola had already spoken about it. And that being an impossible track to overtake, they will force a multiple stop race there.

[KWSN - DSM]

RedRabbit, on 08 Apr 2025 - 13:55, said:

Do you think Lando is as good as Rubens?

 

I think both McLaren drivers are at a minimum Rubens level. The fact that I see one of them better than the other do not mean I see the 'inferior' as a bad driver, simply that he has had the misfortune of being teamed with the current second best driver in the world, any other team than McLaren or Red Bull he would be the clear undisputed number 1, it is not outside the realm of possibility that he is currently the 3rd best driver in the world - Which car you race mean something, both McLaren drivers have the 'it' factor, one have that little extra.

 

But I have been wrong before.

[Claudius]

Having watched F1 in the 90s and 00s, where processions were the order of the day, I'm not that bothered by the occasional race like Suzuka.

[Analog]

Claudius, on 08 Apr 2025 - 14:17, said:

Having watched F1 in the 90s and 00s, where processions were the order of the day, I'm not that bothered by the occasional race like Suzuka.

Yeah... a race like the one at Suzuka, with the three leading cars in the same picture for almost an entire race, could have been the highlight of the year!

A big difference between now and then is the reliability though, but for the cars  and the drivers themselves, which mean that there was never any safe bets before the checkered flag. Now, the random element is the pit stops and they are also so efficient that you don't even have time to let off a fart.

Edited by Analog, 08 April 2025 - 14:32.

[7MGTEsup]

Analog, on 08 Apr 2025 - 14:30, said:

Yeah... a race like the one at Suzuka, with the three leading cars in the same picture for almost an entire race, could have been the highlight of the year!

A big difference between now and then is the reliability though, but for the cars  and the drivers themselves, which mean that there was never any safe bets before the checkered flag. Now, the random element is the pit stops and they are also so efficient that you don't even have time to let off a fart.

 

Max was only ever one lock up away from being passed so there was a level of tension for a lot of the race. It's not like it was his team mate behind him protecting his rear.

[ensign14]

Claudius, on 08 Apr 2025 - 14:17, said:

Having watched F1 in the 90s and 00s, where processions were the order of the day, I'm not that bothered by the occasional race like Suzuka.

To be fair though cars were often visibly on the edge back then.  Now it's a bit Scalextric.

[KWSN - DSM]

ensign14, on 08 Apr 2025 - 15:13, said:

To be fair though cars were often visibly on the edge back then.  Now it's a bit Scalextric.

 

Not quite Scalextric when you go see live, there is the poor TV coverage not truly showing what is going on - The Peter Fox picture in one of the Japan threads is happening every lap to every car, the cars bounce, fly, compress, understeer, oversteer and are on the limit.

[Analog]

7MGTEsup, on 08 Apr 2025 - 14:41, said:

Max was only ever one lock up away from being passed so there was a level of tension for a lot of the race. It's not like it was his team mate behind him protecting his rear.

I know, I enjoyed the race on Sunday although it must be labelled as "boring" with todays standard. What I mean is that even during the weird races 30 years ago, when only way to understand what was going on was to listen to the commentator and close fights at the end of races was more rare than unicorns, it was still interesting. But in a different way. 

[7MGTEsup]

Analog, on 08 Apr 2025 - 15:21, said:

I know, I enjoyed the race on Sunday although it must be labelled as "boring" with todays standard. What I mean is that even during the weird races 30 years ago, when only way to understand what was going on was to listen to the commentator and close fights at the end of races was more rare than unicorns, it was still interesting. But in a different way. 

 

I would describe races as less exciting rather than boring as there is always something going on somewhere on the track.

[Brawn BGP 001]

rodlamas, on 08 Apr 2025 - 13:59, said:

The Japanese GP will have some direct impact on the tire choice on any of the tracks Pirelli still has not manufactured the tires for.

C6 will appear much more than first thought.

Imola first candidate -> Isola had already spoken about it. And that being an impossible track to overtake, they will force a multiple stop race there.

I wonder if we will ever see the C1 tyre again this season?

[KWSN - DSM]

Boring in the eyes of the beholder, a race can be interesting and exiteing without many over takes.

 

Japanese Grand Prix 2025 - https://forums.autos...ead/?p=10876930

 

China Grand Prix 2025 - https://forums.autos...day/?p=10865975

 

Bahrain 2024 - https://forums.autos...rix/?p=10525012

[FirstnameLastname]

Motorsport.com top article is currently ‘Why the Japanese Grand Prix wasn’t boring….’

When you need to start running articles like that, your sport has a problem

[KWSN - DSM]

FirstnameLastname, on 08 Apr 2025 - 16:52, said:

Motorsport.com top article is currently ‘Why the Japanese Grand Prix wasn’t boring….’

When you need to start running articles like that, your sport has a problem

 

There should be no demand for instant gratification, sport is not (at least not entirely) a scripted TV show.

Edited by KWSN - DSM, 08 April 2025 - 16:54.

[FirstnameLastname]

Interesting to muse though… what would have made it exciting enough to satisfy? If Lando had overtaken for the lead… would that one overtake have been enough?

How much action warrants a satisfying race?

[KWSN - DSM]

FirstnameLastname, on 08 Apr 2025 - 16:54, said:

Interesting to muse though… what would have made it exciting enough to satisfy? If Lando had overtaken for the lead… would that one overtake have been enough?

How much action warrants a satisfying race?

 

3 cars having to be pinpoint precise from green light to flag, while collectively pulling away from all other worlds best drivers, not putting a foot wrong, except almost serving the race to Piastri on a platter.

[TomNokoe]

7MGTEsup, on 08 Apr 2025 - 14:41, said:

Max was only ever one lock up away from being passed so there was a level of tension for a lot of the race. It's not like it was his team mate behind him protecting his rear.

The only lockups I recall were Hamilton on used tyres defending from Max, and a couple from Antonelli and Sainz, so I don't think this was a terribly difficult benchmark for Verstappen to meet.

The dirty air did most of the work for him. There was even a radio message from GP where he said "you can push now", the inference being he wasn't before. Tells you all you need to know.

[FortiFord]

Gary Davies, on 08 Apr 2025 - 08:57, said:

Over at Autosport*, there's an article by Jake Boxall-Legge titled "Why dirty air is such a problem in F1 2025".

One of the respondents, someone with the username of Bandini Fan wrote: "It’s been boring and will remain boring is what you are saying.

"I have been watching for 60 years and this is the first time I actually switched off before the end of the race. It’s a tragedy what has been done to a once great sport.

"Exacerbated by little difference between hard and medium compounds. More tyre degradation and two stopper might have helped.

"I fail to understand why all of the complexities around the wings and floor are not simply outlawed. Let’s reduce downforce dramatically and go back to more mechanical grip please."

Another (jordidm99) wrote: "...it's the same problem F1 has faced for decades: does it want to be a technological war or does it want to be a spectacle?"

They both made excellent points.

When I first became interested in Formula One (probably around the same time as Bandini Fan) the battle between constructors around technology was relevant because the technology available to the likes of Chapman, Rudd, Ferrari and Brabham/Tauranac did not require insane amounts of money for full size wind tunnels, computer processors (what were they??) running at warp speed or OxBridge academics.

But today, the money in F1 and the available technology make it necessary for the FIA to impose a complicated matrix of rules in order for the sport/business (take your pick) to survive.

I'm neither criticising nor condoning this state of affairs, but jordidm99's question is a good one.

* If you can't see the article because it's behind a paywall, I recommend becoming a subscriber.

Valid points but conversely, we l’ve had fans complain about the the Pirelli tyres “lottery” throwing up too much unpredictably in the midst of an all time classic season like 2012.

We also had fans complaining about the cars being too slow in the 14-16 period which resulted in the return to wider cars. If you outlaw aerodynamic complexities then these same fans will complain that the cars look too slow.

The fans don’t know what they want. Neither do the rule makers.

[Sterzo]

KWSN - DSM, on 08 Apr 2025 - 16:56, said:

3 cars having to be pinpoint precise from green light to flag, while collectively pulling away from all other worlds best drivers, not putting a foot wrong, except almost serving the race to Piastri on a platter.

I think this is the key point; there actually was suspense. They were all three on the edge of making mistakes - and the second and third drivers did, which cemented the result as it happened. I thought it a good race. And linking it to your earlier point, watching that live would have been great. The sense of jeopardy, and the ability to detect minor instability as a driver pushes, gets rather lost on the TV screen. But in the end, who are we? Motor racing enthusiasts or TV addicts? We don't have much option other than to watch mainly on TV, but the sport has already been butchered too much to suit a TV show instead of good, straightforward racing.

[rodlamas]

Brawn BGP 001, on 08 Apr 2025 - 15:56, said:

I wonder if we will ever see the C1 tyre again this season?

The C1 is the hard tire this week in Bahrain.

[The Passenger]

7MGTEsup, on 08 Apr 2025 - 14:41, said:

Max was only ever one lock up away from being passed so there was a level of tension for a lot of the race. It's not like it was his team mate behind him protecting his rear.

True, and let's not forget we heard at least twice on team radio that Max was pushing.

[tempname11]

I have to say I found the race very tense, as the top 3 were within a few seconds for basically all the race. If Verstappen had made any mistakes, he might have been passed. There is something really weird about someone putting in a perfect performance, but the fans being so used to it, that they find it boring.

[A3]

tempname11, on 09 Apr 2025 - 07:40, said:

I have to say I found the race very tense, as the top 3 were within a few seconds for basically all the race. If Verstappen had made any mistakes, he might have been passed. There is something really weird about someone putting in a perfect performance, but the fans being so used to it, that they find it boring.

 

Some even say Max was easily controlling the gap in a faster car.

[PayasYouRace]

KWSN - DSM, on 08 Apr 2025 - 16:54, said:

There should be no demand for instant gratification, sport is not (at least not entirely) a scripted TV show.

I think gratification after 90 minutes isn’t too much to ask though.

[IrvTheSwerve]

The 'boredom' for me isn't even about the (lack of) overtakes. I've said in the past that I actually miss cars following each other, lap after lap, something that DRS has ruined. And anyway, how many DRS passes are actually exciting these days?

 

For me, it's that the cars are just so boring to watch now. Back in the 00s, you could watch in awe at the cars even if the race was rubbish (something I think a lot of us took for granted, in hindsight). In modern F1, a rubbish race is exacerbated by the fact that there's not much else to excite you. You rarely see lockups, rarely see cars sliding, rarely see cars oversteering when drivers get on the power...the massive cars look really slow particularly in slow corners, the cars sound rubbish, you can't really see the driver any longer due to the halo (ok, I'll allow that one).

 

It's just not as dynamic or visceral any longer. When you have 3 cars chasing each other, as we did during this race, you just feel that there's no chance of something happening. The drivers are within their limits to such an extent that mistakes are very rare.

[SD85]

Suzuka was always difficult to overtake at and with the current cars it's nearly impossible. A great track to drive but not to watch, after the first few corners of lap 1 I knew we were in for a snoozefest.

 

Time to go back to Fuji, a circuit that's always delivered when it comes to the racing.

[Analog]

IrvTheSwerve, on 09 Apr 2025 - 09:36, said:

The 'boredom' for me isn't even about the (lack of) overtakes. I've said in the past that I actually miss cars following each other, lap after lap, something that DRS has ruined. And anyway, how many DRS passes are actually exciting these days?

 

For me, it's that the cars are just so boring to watch now. Back in the 00s, you could watch in awe at the cars even if the race was rubbish (something I think a lot of us took for granted, in hindsight). In modern F1, a rubbish race is exacerbated by the fact that there's not much else to excite you. You rarely see lockups, rarely see cars sliding, rarely see cars oversteering when drivers get on the power...the massive cars look really slow particularly in slow corners, the cars sound rubbish, you can't really see the driver any longer due to the halo (ok, I'll allow that one).

 

It's just not as dynamic or visceral any longer. When you have 3 cars chasing each other, as we did during this race, you just feel that there's no chance of something happening. The drivers are within their limits to such an extent that mistakes are very rare.

A big part of the problem is the conservative camera work. Stationary tele lenses kills the sense of speed. There's also no image/sound sync other than for onboards. A car entering a corner at 300km/h is a violent thing, it should not feel like when Mrs. Jones is looking for a place to park. The TV production team is organized as if they are there to document an event for the archives when they should be there with the mindset of shooting an action movie.

[SenorSjon]

SD85, on 09 Apr 2025 - 10:12, said:

Suzuka was always difficult to overtake at and with the current cars it's nearly impossible. A great track to drive but not to watch, after the first few corners of lap 1 I knew we were in for a snoozefest.

 

Time to go back to Fuji, a circuit that's always delivered when it comes to the racing.

 

https://en.wikipedia...nese_Grand_Prix

https://en.wikipedia...nese_Grand_Prix

 

I have no real memory of those two, bar missing Suzuka.

[A3]

Analog, on 09 Apr 2025 - 10:13, said:

A big part of the problem is the conservative camera work. Stationary tele lenses kills the sense of speed. There's also no image/sound sync other than for onboards. A car entering a corner at 300km/h is a violent thing, it should not feel like when Mrs. Jones is looking for a place to park. The TV production team is organized as if they are there to document an event for the archives when they should be there with the mindset of shooting an action movie.

 

I've been at Spa a couple of times. 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2016. In 2016 I went with my brother and his was his first real F1 experience. We were sat alongside the Kemmel straight where in 2000 I saw Hakkinen make that spectacular move on Schumacher, cars screaming by at 300+ km/h. I told him about the race starts back then, how you could hear the cars coming from down the valley and how you could almost feel the downshifts as they hurt your ears, bang bang bang! In 2016 there was none of that. The sound was dissapointing and 300+ km/h didn't look like 300km/h at all. The Porsche supercup was louder.

[SD85]

SenorSjon, on 09 Apr 2025 - 10:41, said:

https://en.wikipedia...nese_Grand_Prix

https://en.wikipedia...nese_Grand_Prix

 

I have no real memory of those two, bar missing Suzuka.

 

Very surprised you don't remember much of 2007, that was an absolute epic, Hamilton taking the win at an absolutely drenched circuit, one of those races people talk about a lot even years afterwards.

 

2008 was not as spectacular but it was a fantastic win by Alonso in a pretty average Renault car, also had Hamilton sliding off at turn 1 on the opening lap and he and Massa were lower down the field for much of the race.

 

But there was plenty of overtaking and interesting stuff going on in both of them.

Edited by SD85, 09 April 2025 - 10:58.