Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 9 votes

Mercedes and Red Bull want 2012 tyres back


  • Please log in to reply
423 replies to this topic

#1 Arry2k

Arry2k
  • Member

  • 424 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:52

I have no idea whether this guy is a reliable source or not, but, he claims in this tweet that both Mercedes and Red Bull want Pirelli to revert back to 2012 tyre spec.

Tobias Gruner Tweet

Even if true, I would imagine that this being pretty hard to work and massively unfair on the other teams. Any thoughts?

Edited by Arry2k, 23 March 2013 - 10:54.


Advertisement

#2 JensonWDC

JensonWDC
  • Member

  • 478 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:55

http://www.auto-moto...en-6801436.html



#3 Jimisgod

Jimisgod
  • Member

  • 4,954 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:59

Boo hoo. They ain't winning, so they crying.

#4 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 10,550 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:03

So according to Newey, the tyre tends to delaminate when the chassis exerts too much downforce in corners.
To me this sounds like a flaw in the design of the tyre and has got nothing to do with improving the show as Pirelli maintains.
A tyre should not delaminate this easily.

#5 Kelateboy

Kelateboy
  • Member

  • 7,018 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:04

I have no idea whether this guy is a reliable source or not, but, he claims in this tweet that both Mercedes and Red Bull want Pirelli to revert back to 2012 tyre spec.

Tobias Gruner Tweet

Even if true, I would imagine that this being pretty hard to work and massively unfair on the other teams. Any thoughts?

Ain't going to happen.

#6 Francesc

Francesc
  • Member

  • 3,374 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:05

Ain't going to happen. All teams would have to agree for it to go ahead, and Lotus won't ever accept that.

#7 peroa

peroa
  • Member

  • 10,417 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:06

So according to Newey, the tyre tends to delaminate when the chassis exerts too much downforce in corners.
To me this sounds like a flaw in the design of the tyre and has got nothing to do with improving the show as Pirelli maintains.
A tyre should not delaminate this easily.

Yep, they're using a steel belt for the first time according to amus that overheats.

#8 Sin

Sin
  • Member

  • 2,009 posts
  • Joined: December 12

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:06

gotta agree tho that the tyres suck... they should make the tyres longer lasting...... so drivers can go to the limit..... no fun to see them going slow just cause of shitty tyres

thats what I already thought 2012 tho

Edited by Sin, 23 March 2013 - 11:10.


#9 Arry2k

Arry2k
  • Member

  • 424 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:08

So according to Newey, the tyre tends to delaminate when the chassis exerts too much downforce in corners.
To me this sounds like a flaw in the design of the tyre and has got nothing to do with improving the show as Pirelli maintains.
A tyre should not delaminate this easily.

But it does not appear to be a problem for anyone else and the tyres are the same for all. Surely this is Mercedes and Red Bulls problem to sort out, no?

#10 TFLB

TFLB
  • Member

  • 1,839 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:08

Mercedes and Red Bull build cars which destroy their tyres while other teams did a better job in that area. Now because they're not winning they want other tyres. Cry me a river. It's their own fault if they can't manage the tyres.

#11 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 10,550 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:11

gotta agree tho that the tyres suck... they should make the tyres longer lasting...... so drivers can go to the limit..... no fun to see them going slow just cause of shitty tyres

For me it's not so much about a faster degradation.
It's the delamination which I'm sure is also a worry for Pirelli.
No tyre manufacturer will enjoy people seeing their tyre literally disintegrate. Moreover, it looks dangerous to me.

#12 Baddoer

Baddoer
  • Member

  • 2,241 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:11

Posted Image

#13 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:12

Mercedes and Red Bull build cars which destroy their tyres while other teams did a better job in that area. Now because they're not winning they want other tyres. Cry me a river. It's their own fault if they can't manage the tyres.

--------------------

People usually write either something very profound or very silly here. I don't want to do that, so therefore I will leave it blank.

It seems that you failed on your promise.

#14 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 10,550 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:13

But it does not appear to be a problem for anyone else and the tyres are the same for all. Surely this is Mercedes and Red Bulls problem to sort out, no?

I believe in practice today, on one of Kimi's runs tyre parts were coming off. It's not just Mercedes and Redbull.


#15 choyothe

choyothe
  • Member

  • 2,312 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:14

So according to Newey, the tyre tends to delaminate when the chassis exerts too much downforce in corners.
To me this sounds like a flaw in the design of the tyre and has got nothing to do with improving the show as Pirelli maintains.
A tyre should not delaminate this easily.


:rotfl: Absurd if true.

And who'd not believe the God?

Edited by choyothe, 23 March 2013 - 11:14.


#16 Jimisgod

Jimisgod
  • Member

  • 4,954 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:15

So according to Newey, the tyre tends to delaminate when the chassis exerts too much downforce in corners.
To me this sounds like a flaw in the design of the tyre and has got nothing to do with improving the show as Pirelli maintains.
A tyre should not delaminate this easily.


Stop the press: Newey car hard on a particular mechanical component. More at 11...

#17 Massa_f1

Massa_f1
  • Member

  • 4,971 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:16

If you build a fast car you should be rewarded for it. These tyres are close to being beyond useless for going motor racing.

#18 peroa

peroa
  • Member

  • 10,417 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:16

Tobias Grüner F1 @tgruener
#F1 Mercedes believes, Pirelli will change tyre compounds. Should be less sensitive to cold temperatures. Probably for China.

#19 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:17


Krisensitzung bei Red Bull und Mercedes. Das Reifenthema lässt die Formel 1 nicht mehr los. Immer mehr setzt sich die Erkenntnis durch, dass die neuen Pirelli-Reifen die Autos bestrafen, die viel Abtrieb haben. Red Bull-Technikchef Adrian Newey sieht einen direkten Zusammenhang zwischen Abtrieb und Verschleiß. Aber nicht wie früher, dass viel Abtrieb gleichbedeutend ist mit geringem Verschleiß.

"Genau das Gegenteil tritt ein. Wer die Reifen in den Kurven mehr belastet, bezahlt damit, dass sich der Gummi schneller von der Lauffläche schält", so die Analyse des erfahrenen Red Bull-Konstrukteurs. Sein Pilot Sebastian Vettel stöhnt: "Je besser das Auto, umso schlechter bist du dran."


Basically they say the more downforce the worse. Brilliant and nice dice throw by Pirelli. Teams get punished for bulding faster cars. This is what F1 is all about.

Advertisement

#20 MortenF1

MortenF1
  • Member

  • 21,908 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:18

Finally it seems someone has given their opinion in public, to put a bit of pressure on Pirelli. The tires are joke, but it now turns out they can't take the load from high-speed sweepers. (Imagine if Turkey with T8 was on the calendar. We'd have had US GP 2005 all over, but with NO cars starting.)

I saw Hembery and two other Pirelli guys in frantic conversation today.........

#21 kedia990

kedia990
  • Member

  • 412 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:18

Tobias Grüner F1 @tgruener
#F1 Mercedes believes, Pirelli will change tyre compounds. Should be less sensitive to cold temperatures. Probably for China.


The tyre allocation for China will be changed or the structure/design of the tyre itself?

#22 Arry2k

Arry2k
  • Member

  • 424 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:20

I believe in practice today, on one of Kimi's runs tyre parts were coming off. It's not just Mercedes and Redbull.

If there are genuine safety concerns for all teams then, obviously, it is Pirelli's duty to fix the issue - that does not necessarily mean reverting to 2012 though. However, if this is an underhand way for whichever teams to engineer a benefit to themselves under the fascade of safety concerns then, frankly, these notions should not be entertained, IMO.

#23 choyothe

choyothe
  • Member

  • 2,312 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:25

Cheese tyres are unnecessary when we have DRS, that's the bottom line.

#24 Goron3

Goron3
  • Member

  • 1,203 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:27

The tyre allocation for China will be changed or the structure/design of the tyre itself?


The structure will be changed to make them better in cold temperatures.

China has typically been cold or wet since its been moved to the beginning of the year it's definitely a good decision :)

#25 TFLB

TFLB
  • Member

  • 1,839 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:27

It seems that you failed on your promise.

I know, do you think I haven't noticed that in the (just under) three years it's been there?

#26 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 10,550 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:28

The tyre allocation for China will be changed or the structure/design of the tyre itself?

Tyre allocation.

#27 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 6,676 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:29

Mercedes and Red Bull build cars which destroy their tyres while other teams did a better job in that area. Now because they're not winning they want other tyres. Cry me a river. It's their own fault if they can't manage the tyres.


Except that they are arguing that they are penalised for having a better car and that the problem is that too much DF ruins the tires.

#28 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 10,550 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:29

The structure will be changed to make them better in cold temperatures.

China has typically been cold or wet since its been moved to the beginning of the year it's definitely a good decision :)

A new design? On such short notice?

#29 DutchQuicksilver

DutchQuicksilver
  • Member

  • 4,716 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:31

I say bring Bridgestone back

#30 SunnyENTP

SunnyENTP
  • Member

  • 717 posts
  • Joined: August 12

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:31

Better still, bring back Bridgstones + DRS = more aggressive racing

#31 TFLB

TFLB
  • Member

  • 1,839 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:31

Except that they are arguing that they are penalised for having a better car and that the problem is that too much DF ruins the tires.

The 'goodness' of a car should not solely be measured in downforce. So if the car destroys the tyres much faster than the opposition then it's not a better car, even if it is quicker over one lap.

#32 Sin

Sin
  • Member

  • 2,009 posts
  • Joined: December 12

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:32

Better still, bring back Bridgstones + DRS = more aggressive racing


yes :clap:

#33 PassWind

PassWind
  • Member

  • 6,723 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:32

Cheese tyres are unnecessary when we have DRS, that's the bottom line.


This is true, if we accept that the type of tire is a physical challenge for the teams to engineer around they may as well make them out of real cheese for shitz n giggles. I thought the tire factor was ok in Australia but if they are literally going to fall apart Pirelli needs to rethink the design.


#34 Cenotaph

Cenotaph
  • Member

  • 2,389 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:33

Bring Bridgestone back? I guarantee you Red Bull would win 90% of the races and there would be as much overtaking as it used to be in 2010 regardless of DRS

Edited by Cenotaph, 23 March 2013 - 11:33.


#35 F1ultimate

F1ultimate
  • Member

  • 2,991 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:33

If you build a fast car you should be rewarded for it. These tyres are close to being beyond useless for going motor racing.


It's also a waste of resources to spend millions chasing the next tenth only to be set back by tires designed by clowns.

#36 DutchQuicksilver

DutchQuicksilver
  • Member

  • 4,716 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:34

Bring Bridgestone back? I guarantee you Red Bull would win 90% of the races and there would be as much overtaking as it used to be in 2010 regardless of DRS

Nah, Red Bull has been dominant since Pirelli entered the sport in 2011. 2010 was very exciting championship wise, so how come you think Red Bull would win it all?

#37 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 10,550 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:36

If there are genuine safety concerns for all teams then, obviously, it is Pirelli's duty to fix the issue - that does not necessarily mean reverting to 2012 though. However, if this is an underhand way for whichever teams to engineer a benefit to themselves under the fascade of safety concerns then, frankly, these notions should not be entertained, IMO.

It might be too short notice to design and test a new tyre, so maybe that's why the 2012 tyre was suggested.

#38 Lelouch

Lelouch
  • Member

  • 610 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:37

The 'goodness' of a car should not solely be measured in downforce. So if the car destroys the tyres much faster than the opposition then it's not a better car, even if it is quicker over one lap.

But then what should designers focus on when building a car? Maybe downforce became too important in the Pirelli years ( although i thought it always was among the most important factors, am I wrong ) but how are you supposed to build a car and find a soft spot between lacking downforce and having too much of it? Imho Pirelli is messing around too much, regardless of whether it's good for the spectacle or not.

#39 Arry2k

Arry2k
  • Member

  • 424 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:38

It might be too short notice to design and test a new tyre, so maybe that's why the 2012 tyre was suggested.

True enough. Still I would imagine that it would take Pirelli quite some time to produce enough 2012 tyres for all teams.

Advertisement

#40 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 35,814 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:40

So according to Newey, the tyre tends to delaminate when the chassis exerts too much downforce in corners.
To me this sounds like a flaw in the design of the tyre and has got nothing to do with improving the show as Pirelli maintains.
A tyre should not delaminate this easily.


This is not necessarily true. There are other factors such as exhaust positioning that could be overheating the tyres.


#41 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 10,550 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:45

This is not necessarily true. There are other factors such as exhaust positioning that could be overheating the tyres.

It was not an issue last year or the year before.
You're the first to see that as a probable cause.

#42 mlsnoopy

mlsnoopy
  • Member

  • 2,356 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:48

This is not necessarily true. There are other factors such as exhaust positioning that could be overheating the tyres.


No matter what you do the a tyre it shouldn't delaminate. Lose performance fine, but what for example happened to Hamilton in FP3 when a whole piece of the tyre was missing, shouldn't happen.

#43 Cenotaph

Cenotaph
  • Member

  • 2,389 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:49

Nah, Red Bull has been dominant since Pirelli entered the sport in 2011. 2010 was very exciting championship wise, so how come you think Red Bull would win it all?

Well, but 2010 was exciting because of RB6's poor reliabilty. With tyres built to last like Bridgestone's, Red Bull would be able to push the limits in race trim and translate their apparent one lap pace advantage this year into race pace, imho.

What we really really need is proper tyre war... natural competition instead of artifically made tyre falloff.

#44 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 35,814 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:50

It was not an issue last year or the year before.
You're the first to see that as a probable cause.


I didn't say probable. Just that there are other factors that can come into play, and just because it didn't happen last year doesn't mean it can never happen. I have no idea if they have changed the exhaust layout, but they have had problems in that area in the past.

#45 fololo

fololo
  • Member

  • 960 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:59

I didn't say probable. Just that there are other factors that can come into play, and just because it didn't happen last year doesn't mean it can never happen. I have no idea if they have changed the exhaust layout, but they have had problems in that area in the past.

Omfg keep the tyres.



RENAULT LOTUS SAVE USSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS :down:

#46 Longtimefan

Longtimefan
  • Member

  • 3,170 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:59

Lets go back to Goodyear Eagles.


#47 nectar

nectar
  • Member

  • 97 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:00


One thing puzzles me though- the regulation didn't change much from last year, the only big challenge is supposed to be making your tyres working. All teams were given testing time in Brazil on these 2013 tyres, on equal circumstance. And now they argue because they couldn't design a car that sustains the tyres? I didn't realize we've entered an era of Red-Bull F1 now. And on wild speculation Mercedes is in this partly because they want to win Red Bull over for 2014 engine? seeing that Mercedes most probably has lost McLaren to Honda, and that Red Bull has chosen Infiniti for title sponsor?... anyhow, if this tyre thing is true, i heartily feel F1 is beyond absurdity now, the fact that big name calls the game is even more absurd than the fact that we now need these tyres to sustain this show. At least you have equality.

#48 MortenF1

MortenF1
  • Member

  • 21,908 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:03

One thing puzzles me though- the regulation didn't change much from last year, the only big challenge is supposed to be making your tyres working. All teams were given testing time in Brazil on these 2013 tyres, on equal circumstance. And now they argue because they couldn't design a car that sustains the tyres?


You have it upside-down.

#49 Sin

Sin
  • Member

  • 2,009 posts
  • Joined: December 12

Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:06

Mercedes agree with Red Bull cause their tyres were destroyed (have you not seen the scene where Hamilton was missing part of the tire) they were basically spending practice to make their car slower.... just so that the tires survive... and that is not fun to watch

#50 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 6,891 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:08

What a bunch of sore losers. Winning the double three times in a row and start whining after one race where they faced some problems. Massive :down:

Benoit from Blick:

One thing is clear: who ever from the top teams is not at the front will put the blame on the tyres. Mostly a feeble excuse.


Edited by Jovanotti, 23 March 2013 - 12:08.